Israel, Middle East And American Politics

[Robin101]

I don't mean to cause offence but I just don't understand how America can come out in support of the Israelis this time. Israel is bombing and killing civilians and no one else, in a way not any different to Syria. America, how can you call it 'self-defense'? It's not just America either, i don't get why the whole western world isn't condemning Israel. The world genuinely makes me feel sick sometimes.

[Guest]

I was under the impression from various reports etc, that "they" have been firing rockets randomly into Israel for weeks/months and the response was what I would hope we would do if someone did likewise to us.

As for civilians being killed in the response no doubt some were but we only have the media to rely on for info and I wouldnt rely on them, to tell me the time.

[TRL]

I don't mean to cause offence but I just don't understand how America can come out in support of the Israelis this time. Israel is bombing and killing civilians and no one else, in a way not any different to Syria. America, how can you call it 'self-defense'? It's not just America either, i don't get why the whole western world isn't condemning Israel. The world genuinely makes me feel sick sometimes.

Don't you know most of the western world is run by Jewish. A lot of american wealth come from Jewish money. So they will never ever turn on Israel. Money talks

[kevinmabbuttshair]

I was under the impression from various reports etc, that "they" have been firing rockets randomly into Israel for weeks/months and the response was what I would hope we would do if someone did likewise to us.

As for civilians being killed in the response no doubt some were but we only have the media to rely on for info and I wouldnt rely on them, to tell me the time.

Sounds about right

Don't you know most of the western world is run by Jewish. A lot of american wealth come from Jewish money. So they will never ever turn on Israel. Money talks

Bloody hell, go careful

[TRL]

Sounds about right

Bloody hell, go careful

Well I am no conspiracy theorist. And I really don't care who runs which country. I'm small fry, I'll get shat on by whoever is in power at any given time.

Just so happens many of the biggest jobs and money making ventures in the US are headed up by Jews. How much influence they have, is pure speculation on my part.

[Mr Mosquito]

Well I am no conspiracy theorist. And I really don't care who runs which country. I'm small fry, I'll get shat on by whoever is in power at any given time.

Just so happens many of the biggest jobs and money making ventures in the US are headed up by Jews. How much influence they have, is pure speculation on my part.

Real trouble for the past 1,000 or so years has revolved around the Holy lands. You are correct in that these days, the world's Western banking sector elite has a very high percentage of Jews. Before them, the Knights Templar rose from humble beginnings to become the most powerful military religious order of the Middle Ages. They were formed to protect pilgrims in the Holy Land, they participated in the Crusades and rapidly gained wealth, lands, and influence.

Seemingly untouchable for nearly two centuries, they fell from grace spectacularly after the loss of the Holy Land. When money lending was run by this Christian Knights Templar military order, the French King Philip IV wanted money for war with England and he persecuted, tortured and burned the Knights Templar for this money. It is said that Jacques de Molay - the last Grand Master Knights Templar - cursed King Philip and the Pope Clement (for assisting the King) and the King's descendants from his execution pyre. Take note, it is true that King Philip and Pope Clement V both died within a year of Grand Master Molay's execution, Pope Clement finally succumbing to a long illness on 20 April 1314, and King Philip in a hunting accident. The three sons of Philip IV also died within 14 years from the death of the last Knights Templar Grand Master, thus collapsing the 300-year-old French Royal House of Capet.

It maybe that any leader or country thinking of destroying or subjugating the Jewish people in Israel will come under a similar curse to that which befell the French Royal family for their persecution of the Templars. Think about it, the German 3rd Reich didn't prosper for long for their persecution of Jews.

[class_not_gas]

Just said on the news they have fired 5000 rockets towards Israel since January .... If this is correct I can't see what else they can do but retaliate

[Mr Mosquito]

Just said on the news they have fired 5000 rockets towards Israel since January .... If this is correct I can't see what else they can do but retaliate

Israel has got nuclear weapons - let's face it, it was Jewish scientists that thought of and invented this nuclear capability - Einstein and Oppenheimer. If the surrounding Arab countries put Israel under too much pressure then the Israelis are quite capable of turning all Arab cities to glass with their nukes.

[TRL]

Just said on the news they have fired 5000 rockets towards Israel since January .... If this is correct I can't see what else they can do but retaliate

Hand the land back and bugger off maybe? Just an idea. It will never happen of course. Once the land was carved up by the west and handed over to the Jews, the problem was set in stone.

[Mr Mosquito]

Hand the land back and bugger off maybe? Just an idea. It will never happen of course. Once the land was carved up by the west and handed over to the Jews, the problem was set in stone.

The fact is that Jews have been in Israel/ Palestine since the earliest Biblical times and that's their historic claim to live in that land.

[TRL]

The fact is that Jews have been in Israel/ Palestine since the earliest Biblical times and that's their historic claim to live in that land.

Yes, but if you take a snapshot, in biblical times the population demographic was something like this 8% Jewish 25% Christian Arab 67% Muslim Arab. What they didn't have the right to do was move out the indigenous population and persecute them. When they moved to Israel in the early 20th century, their then prime Minster stated that the lands were inhabited (something they try to deny now) and they were entitled to live a free autonomous life from the Israelis. Looks like that worked out well them!

[Mr Mosquito]

Yes, but if you take a snapshot, in biblical times the population demographic was something like this 8% Jewish 25% Christian Arab 67% Muslim Arab. What they didn't have the right to do was move out the indigenous population and persecute them. When they moved to Israel in the early 20th century, their then prime Minster stated that the lands were inhabited (something they try to deny now) and they were entitled to live a free autonomous life from the Israelis. Looks like that worked out well them!

I meant the earliest Biblical times being the time of Solomon etc - and thousands of years prior to Christianity and Muslims.

[Eddie Hitler]

I meant the earliest Biblical times being the time of Solomon etc - and thousands of years prior to Christianity and Muslims.

I thought they were all feeding their children into the arms of Moloch at that point; hence Moloch being attacked in the Bible.

The Israeli response is what I would like to have seen us do with the IRA, if you know who their people are then just take them out.

I don't however take sides on this one; and why the media is so obsessed with the Levant baffles me. You don't got this sort of blanket coverage for the various Soviet / Indonesian struggles.

[TRL]

I meant the earliest Biblical times being the time of Solomon etc - and thousands of years prior to Christianity and Muslims.

Ah I see. The earliest settlers came from what is now Greece, neither Arabic or Jewish. Muslims on the other hand, well their history, I belive starts after this time, and the Jews claim over it relates to Jacob arriving (I'm a bit hazy here)

The trouble is both Muslims and Jews have led a very nomadic existence, and to pin down any rightful ownership of the palastine Israel area is a toughie. What isn't tough is the rights the new Israel was supposed to give to the local population, and what it actually gave them. America backed everything that happened, and the west turned their backs and turned a blind eye to what happened, after carving up the area to suit their own needs.

Hey ho. We are always paying for decisions made in the past.

[Mr Mosquito]

Ah I see. The earliest settlers came from what is now Greece, neither Arabic or Jewish. Muslims on the other hand, well their history, I belive starts after this time, and the Jews claim over it relates to Jacob arriving (I'm a bit hazy here)

The trouble is both Muslims and Jews have led a very nomadic existence, and to pin down any rightful ownership of the palastine Israel area is a toughie. What isn't tough is the rights the new Israel was supposed to give to the local population, and what it actually gave them. America backed everything that happened, and the west turned their backs and turned a blind eye to what happened, after carving up the area to suit their own needs.

Hey ho. We are always paying for decisions made in the past.

Indeed it is a toughie. The problem for us in England is the possibility of the use of nuclear weapons in the Middle East and the civilian population of this country being affected by nuclear fall out. With the fall of the Soviet Union we thought the world was safer from the possibility of nuclear war. With Israel and nuclear armed countries like Iran squaring up to Israel the possibility of a nuclear war is near. Stock up on tins of food and fresh water and dig a deep shelter is my advice.

[Robin101]

I thought they were all feeding their children into the arms of Moloch at that point; hence Moloch being attacked in the Bible.

The Israeli response is what I would like to have seen us do with the IRA, if you know who their people are then just take them out.

I don't however take sides on this one; and why the media is so obsessed with the Levant baffles me. You don't got this sort of blanket coverage for the various Soviet / Indonesian struggles.

But they aren't just taking out the leaders, they're killing women and children! How is a peace ever going to come about when Israel continues to create reasons for resentment! I'm not saying Israel doesn't have a right to defend itself, but that isn't what it's doing now, is it? Let's just hope Iran doesn't actively back Hamas, because then America will actively back Israel and who knows what will happen then. But I don't think anyone in Britain will support another foreign war.

[Red-Robbo]

It is incorrect, but a widely repeated canard, to state that most American corporations are run by Jewish people, and it is also incorrect to assume that all Jewish people support every action of the Israeli government - in fact, some Jewish people don't even support the idea of Israel.

Let's not let anti-Semitism drift into this discussion please.

PS: RG, Italian Catholic Enrico Fermi had as much to do with the creation of the Atomic Bomb as Oppenheimer and certainly much more than Einstein.

[TRL]

It is incorrect, but a widely repeated canard, to state that most American corporations are run by Jewish people, and it is also incorrect to assume that all Jewish people support every action of the Israeli government - in fact, some Jewish people don't even support the idea of Israel.

Let's not let anti-Semitism drift into this discussion please.

PS: RG, Italian Catholic Enrico Fermi had as much to do with the creation of the Atomic Bomb as Oppenheimer and certainly much more than Einstein.

Not sure there is any anti Semitism on here. If it was aimed at me, well I couldn't care less if you are Christian, Catholic, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist Hindi Sikh or Jedi. I am a unbeliever of religion.

As for influential and rich American Jews, take at a look at the 50 most influential Jews. This is available in the Jereuselmpost, not some propaganda based anti Jew website.

http://www.jpost.com....aspx?id=175871

Now I know this is 2010, but it pretty much holds up today

Like I said, all imo how influential the Jewish are in American foreign affairs.

It was in reference why things are kicking off in Israel and Gaza.

Anyway. Any religion live and let live. It annoys the hell out of me that most wars are based on religion... Religion to me is a doom-sayer, quite the opposite of what is preached. Hypocritical nonsense. I could have quite happily picked any religion to pick on It was just this crises that was in question

[Red-Robbo]

Not sure there is any anti Semitism on here. If it was aimed at me, well I couldn't care less if you are Christian, Catholic, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist Hindi Sikh or Jedi. I am a unbeliever of religion.

As for influential and rich American Jews, take at a look at the 50 most influential Jews. This is available in the Jereuselmpost, not some propaganda based anti Jew website.

http://www.jpost.com....aspx?id=175871

Now I know this is 2010, but it pretty much holds up today

Like I said, all imo how influential the Jewish are in American foreign affairs.

It was in reference why things are kicking off in Israel and Gaza.

Anyway. Any religion live and let live. It annoys the hell out of me that most wars are based on religion... Religion to me is a doom-sayer, quite the opposite of what is preached. Hypocritical nonsense. I could have quite happily picked any religion to pick on It was just this crises that was in question

Not aimed at you or anyone TRL but the discussion just seemed sliding a bit haphazardly towards a sort of "it's the Jews" thing.

As I say, not all Jews support Israeli foreign or domestic policy. Yes, there are some very powerful Jewish people in the States, and some very powerful Southern Baptists, Mormons, Catholics etc etc. You could compile a list like that for a number of faith traditions.

[kevinmabbuttshair]

Big difference between a Jew and a Zionist

[Nibor]

The Israeli lobby in the US isn't powerful because of sneaky jews controlling the world, the answer is far more obvious. Oil.

For the next two decades at least and probably more like five, the US economy is vulnerable to being crippled by anything that disrupts the black flow. The last thing they want is a Muslim superstate, it would be the end of the US as the economic superpower. That's why they sink billions into Israel and keep the Iranians off balance wasting their money on military and sanctioned to hell and back, and it's why they gave Israel nukes.

On the positive side, at least Obama is smart enough to realise it and is trying to get the cold turkey from oil addiction started. It'll take a long time but they will have to go through it eventually as will we.

You can go back into history as long as you like, it doesn't matter because each side has enough justification to make the next load of zealots. There is no solution to the problem in the Middle East while the yanks interfere, and even if they stop it'll take several generations of peaceful co-existence after the bullets stop to actually settle down.

[Mr Mosquito]

It is incorrect, but a widely repeated canard, to state that most American corporations are run by Jewish people, and it is also incorrect to assume that all Jewish people support every action of the Israeli government - in fact, some Jewish people don't even support the idea of Israel.

Let's not let anti-Semitism drift into this discussion please.

PS: RG, Italian Catholic Enrico Fermi had as much to do with the creation of the Atomic Bomb as Oppenheimer and certainly much more than Einstein.

Red-Robbo, per head of population of any religious group, the Jews did far more than any other to give the Western world its nuclear capability. They are a very clever people and surrounded by enemies in the Middle East and I really can't see them going down without a really big fight - i.e. launching nukes against all their enemies - because if they lose any war then that will be the end of modern Israel.

These are like the days of Nehemiah in the Hebrew Bible. The exiles returning from Babylon rebuilt the ruins of Jerusalem with their swords strapped to their sides in case of attack. Then as now God was faithful to the Israelites. The then enemies of the Jews - Sanballat of Samaria, Tobiah the Ammonite, Geshem the Arab, and the men of Ashdod - plot to attack Jerusalem which necessitates the Jews working with weapons in their hands.

[Eco]

Red-Robbo, per head of population of any religious group, the Jews did far more than any other to give the Western world its nuclear capability. They are a very clever people and surrounded by enemies in the Middle East and I really can't see them going down without a really big fight - i.e. launching nukes against all their enemies - because if they lose any war then that will be the end of modern Israel.

These are like the days of Nehemiah in the Hebrew Bible. The exiles returning from Babylon rebuilt the ruins of Jerusalem with their swords strapped to their sides in case of attack. Then as now God was faithful to the Israelites. The then enemies of the Jews - Sanballat of Samaria, Tobiah the Ammonite, Geshem the Arab, and the men of Ashdod - plot to attack Jerusalem which necessitates the Jews working with weapons in their hands.

And an extemely right wing prime minister

[Red-Robbo]

Red-Robbo, per head of population of any religious group, the Jews did far more than any other to give the Western world its nuclear capability. They are a very clever people and surrounded by enemies in the Middle East and I really can't see them going down without a really big fight - i.e. launching nukes against all their enemies - because if they lose any war then that will be the end of modern Israel.

These are like the days of Nehemiah in the Hebrew Bible. The exiles returning from Babylon rebuilt the ruins of Jerusalem with their swords strapped to their sides in case of attack. Then as now God was faithful to the Israelites. The then enemies of the Jews - Sanballat of Samaria, Tobiah the Ammonite, Geshem the Arab, and the men of Ashdod - plot to attack Jerusalem which necessitates the Jews working with weapons in their hands.

You sound like you know a lot more about Biblical times than me, Gobbers!

[Mr Mosquito]

You sound like you know a lot more about Biblical times than me, Gobbers!

I just like reading the Bible online because the various texts are explained in a language I can understand. These days, as in the Biblical text, the enemies of the Jews and of Israel are numerous. In fact, throughout their history, Israel and Judah contended with enemies committed to their destruction, "finding refuge only in their covenant-keeping God" as per the website article at the link below.....

http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/dictionary-of-bible-themes/8728-enemies-Israel-Judah

Many people shun the Christian religion in this country and ignore the warning in Deuteronomy 30:7 - New International Version (NIV).........

"The Lord your God will put all these curses on your enemies who hate and persecute you."

.......the message is clear - do not hate or persecute Jews unless you want to live under a curse.

[Cambridge Batch Red]

Israeli Jews have got the balls we swapped for health en safety, cyclists in helmets, and smoking bans.

[Eddie Hitler]

Israeli Jews have got the balls we swapped for health en safety, cyclists in helmets, and smoking bans.

Yes, Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness would be six feet under if we had shown similar balls. That would be a very good thing.

[marshy]

I just like reading the Bible online because the various texts are explained in a language I can understand. These days, as in the Biblical text, the enemies of the Jews and of Israel are numerous. In fact, throughout their history, Israel and Judah contended with enemies committed to their destruction, "finding refuge only in their covenant-keeping God" as per the website article at the link below.....

http://www.biblegate...es-Israel-Judah

Many people shun the Christian religion in this country and ignore the warning in Deuteronomy 30:7 - New International Version (NIV).........

"The Lord your God will put all these curses on your enemies who hate and persecute you."

.......the message is clear - do not hate or persecute Jews unless you want to live under a curse.

Well if you don't believe in their god I don't suppose one of his curses is going to worry you too much.

Here's a quote I like from Pirsig, quoted in 'The God Delusion' by Richard Dawkins.

''When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion.''

[TRL]

Well if you don't believe in their god I don't suppose one of his curses is going to worry you too much.

Here's a quote I like from Pirsig, quoted in 'The God Delusion' by Richard Dawkins.

''When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion.''

Question for you. If every christian stopped believing in god, will their god cease to exist?

[Maltshoveller]

Question for you. If every christian stopped believing in god, will their god cease to exist?

That depends on if he is real or not!!