Formations

[The Bard]

I was pleased to see our manager change how we were set up yesterday. We have all seen our centre halves found wanting in virtually every game. A lot of the time this was because we have been too open and our centre halves aren't good enough to cover the gaps. When we've played 4 5 1 (or 4 3 3 - it's the same), we've sacrificed too much goal threat in order to play an extra sub standard midfielder. Yesterday we played 3421 (or 5 4 1 or 3 4 3 or 3 6 1 they are different descriptions of the same formation dependent on your view point). Whatever description is most apt, I feel it could be useful particularly away from home.

I didn't go but it was noticeable from listening on the radio (not exactly authoritative I know) that one of our back 3 seemed to be in a position to make an important block or clearance whenever we were under pressure. This has clearly not been happening previously (understatement of the season). The back 3 all have some kind of pedigree, it's that they aren't able to cope in a back four behind the rest of our side. It makes sense to play 3 of them. Both Cunningham and Foster have the attributes to make decent wing backs and this then allows the manager to pick 2 in midfield plus 3 attackers. As we were away at Ipswich, he chose Stead with Anderson and Adomah, making sure their full backs were occupied all game thus allowing our wing backs to deal with their wingers (again I am imagining this - please tell me if I'm wrong). From what I have heard, we pressed high up the pitch and got a lot of joy from this.

I can see the possibility of keeping the 3 centre halves, 2 wing backs and 2 CM (especially if Skuse and Danns are fit and available). To me this seems a solid base allowing a bit of leeway with the 3 attackers

The main thrust of my point is that who these 3 attackers are and how they play can be fluid. For example, we could play Davies in 'the hole' and play with loads of mobility up front - Adomah and Baldock. Davies' ability to hit a long pass can then be used better as he woul dhave 2 mobile targets. It would be more like 3 5 2 which works best with 2 mobile forwards who run the channels. City did this when Millen took over with Haynes and Maynard played up front. They moved wide a lot either occupying the full backs or dragging the centre halves into positions they didn't want to be in. An example of this is Maynard's screamer at home to Newcastle. Baldock is dangerous moving into wide positions and cutting in - we just haven't got the ball to him there enough. I think Albert would thrive from a greater degree of freedom.

Thoughts anyone?

[Lew-T]

I still don't think Del knows his best team yet. Which is slightly worrying seeing where we are and games coming quick and fast! I still believe in Del though, I'm pretty sure I'm in the minority here but that's fine.

But forget Del for a minute, we just need to back the boys starting on Boxing Day. COYR

[Jordan Tansley]

I was pleased to see our manager change how we were set up yesterday. We have all seen our centre halves found wanting in virtually every game. A lot of the time this was because we have been too open and our centre halves aren't good enough to cover the gaps. When we've played 4 5 1 (or 4 3 3 - it's the same), we've sacrificed too much goal threat in order to play an extra sub standard midfielder. Yesterday we played 3421 (or 5 4 1 or 3 4 3 or 3 6 1 they are different descriptions of the same formation dependent on your view point). Whatever description is most apt, I feel it could be useful particularly away from home.

I didn't go but it was noticeable from listening on the radio (not exactly authoritative I know) that one of our back 3 seemed to be in a position to make an important block or clearance whenever we were under pressure. This has clearly not been happening previously (understatement of the season). The back 3 all have some kind of pedigree, it's that they aren't able to cope in a back four behind the rest of our side. It makes sense to play 3 of them. Both Cunningham and Foster have the attributes to make decent wing backs and this then allows the manager to pick 2 in midfield plus 3 attackers. As we were away at Ipswich, he chose Stead with Anderson and Adomah, making sure their full backs were occupied all game thus allowing our wing backs to deal with their wingers (again I am imagining this - please tell me if I'm wrong). From what I have heard, we pressed high up the pitch and got a lot of joy from this.

I can see the possibility of keeping the 3 centre halves, 2 wing backs and 2 CM (especially if Skuse and Danns are fit and available). To me this seems a solid base allowing a bit of leeway with the 3 attackers

The main thrust of my point is that who these 3 attackers are and how they play can be fluid. For example, we could play Davies in 'the hole' and play with loads of mobility up front - Adomah and Baldock. Davies' ability to hit a long pass can then be used better as he woul dhave 2 mobile targets. It would be more like 3 5 2 which works best with 2 mobile forwards who run the channels. City did this when Millen took over with Haynes and Maynard played up front. They moved wide a lot either occupying the full backs or dragging the centre halves into positions they didn't want to be in. An example of this is Maynard's screamer at home to Newcastle. Baldock is dangerous moving into wide positions and cutting in - we just haven't got the ball to him there enough. I think Albert would thrive from a greater degree of freedom.

Thoughts anyone?

I'm a huge fan of a back 3/5 and recently made a post about how Adomah heading to the ACoN could be a blessing if Derek chose to follow this particular road.

As you say, the back 5 and two central midfielders are a solid base to build from, and the formation of the remaining three gives a team plenty of variety and scope for change depending on the game situation, it can have 2 wingers or a very central trio as I advocated in said thread.

I'd like to see at least a variance of this formation at home.

[BCFC96]

i think all we need to do now is put a striker who scores goals upfront,possibly when Adomah goes to ACoN Del will put Davies left wing Baldock upfront and Anderson right wing.

[marcofisher]

I know this is very far fetched, but this system kept juventus undefeated for about a year I believe, and even though there is difference in standards you should always model on the best! Offers great in Defense through the back three, allows the front players greater fluidity in the attack with a solid base behind them and also with three big centre backs makes us slightly more dangerous from set plays(although would be nice if we could actually defend them) would like to see this on Boxing Day aswell!

[tom from sunny side]

I still don't think Del knows his best team yet. Which is slightly worrying seeing where we are and games coming quick and fast! I still believe in Del though, I'm pretty sure I'm in the minority here but that's fine.

But forget Del for a minute, we just need to back the boys starting on Boxing Day. COYR

I still believe in Del too but the whole Anderson thing baffles me as do Del's late substitutions..Saturday being a prime example. I do think that we'll be ok come end of season and I see a few points coming our way over the xmas period. Watford draw, Posh win, Millwall draw. Once we put a half decent run together I think Del will settle on a formation and stick with it as a base. Cunningham back is a major boost imo. We'll get whipped by Leicester though. I still think that we can manage 15th...put a bet on.

[tom from sunny side]

I still believe in Del too but the whole Anderson thing baffles me as do Del's late substitutions..Saturday being a prime example. I do think that we'll be ok come end of season and I see a few points coming our way over the xmas period. Watford draw, Posh win, Millwall draw. Once we put a half decent run together I think Del will settle on a formation and stick with it as a base. Cunningham back is a major boost imo. We'll get whipped by Leicester though. I still think that we can manage 15th...put a bet on.

so the bet is.........

Watford draw

Posh we win

Millwall draw

if you can get odds on us finishing 15th then put your kitten on it

[old_eastender]

Not convinced playing 3 centre backs was so much about a clever formation change... more about "how can I keep Fonts in the team now Cunningham is back and Bates is clearly much better"... from reports Ipswich were there for the taking in the first half if only we'd have had Baldock or Davies on the field to put the ball in the net. Yes I appreciate that neither of those is much good as a lone striker, which for me is why we need a formation (or team selection) that works which allows for 2 strikers!

Madness that our two most expensive signings spend most of their time on the bench. Love to be wrong but I still think Del will take us down.

[sglosbcfc]

Not convinced playing 3 centre backs was so much about a clever formation change... more about "how can I keep Fonts in the team now Cunningham is back and Bates is clearly much better"... from reports Ipswich were there for the taking in the first half if only we'd have had Baldock or Davies on the field to put the ball in the net. Yes I appreciate that neither of those is much good as a lone striker, which for me is why we need a formation (or team selection) that works which allows for 2 strikers!

Madness that our two most expensive signings spend most of their time on the bench. Love to be wrong but I still think Del will take us down.

It sounded a much improved display so it would be madness to change the formation now. Cunningham and Foster have bags of energy so are well suited to play as wing backs. Skuse and Danns can both get about the pitch. The front three can be anyone as long as Stead or Taylor plays as a target man. You can then perm any two from Baldock, Adomah, Davies and Anderson depending on the opposition.

By the way, can we now refer to ourselves as the 'Juventus of the Championship'

[RedUn]

"Formations don't win or lose matches, players do" - SAF

[LondonBristolian]

Not convinced playing 3 centre backs was so much about a clever formation change... more about "how can I keep Fonts in the team now Cunningham is back and Bates is clearly much better"... from reports Ipswich were there for the taking in the first half if only we'd have had Baldock or Davies on the field to put the ball in the net. Yes I appreciate that neither of those is much good as a lone striker, which for me is why we need a formation (or team selection) that works which allows for 2 strikers!

Madness that our two most expensive signings spend most of their time on the bench. Love to be wrong but I still think Del will take us down.

As the OP said, the beauty of this formation is that it does potentially allow for 2 (or indeed 3) striker due to flexibility and freedom - the aim (again based on reports and radio having not actually seen the game) seems to be a solid 3 at the back and 2 in the midfield supported by the 2 wing backs which leaves our front three relatively free to focus on attacking - so that could be two wings and a target man, a deep-lying forward and two strikers, two wingers and a poacher, or a targetman, a stirker and as striker-cum-winger.

If we can get the formation to work, I don't see any reason why it can't incorporate Davies and Baldock without compromising our solidity at the back or leaving either of them isolated as the main striker.

To be honest, though, my main hope is that McInnes finds a formation and sticks with it for the while. I understanding it's hard not to make changes when nothing seems to work but the constant chopping and changing of both systems and personnel does us no good at all.

[LondonBristolian]

"Formations don't win or lose matches, players do" - SAF

He obviously doesn't believe that though, otherwise he wouldn't experiment with formations and tweak systems as much as he does.

[JammyOne]

I'm a huge fan of a back 3/5 and recently made a post about how Adomah heading to the ACoN could be a blessing if Derek chose to follow this particular road.

As you say, the back 5 and two central midfielders are a solid base to build from, and the formation of the remaining three gives a team plenty of variety and scope for change depending on the game situation, it can have 2 wingers or a very central trio as I advocated in said thread.

I'd like to see at least a variance of this formation at home.

We're in agreement. Seeing how the back 5 worked OK, I think we should use something in between going defensive and attacking, so as you say, a trio in midfield perhaps.

Maybe something a little like this:

----------------------------------------Gerken*----------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------Bates---------------------------Fontaine

---------------------------------------McManus---------------------------------------

Foster------------------------------------------------------------------Cunningham

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

----------------------Skuse-----------Danns---------Elliot--------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------Baldock-----------Davies----------------------------

*My preference

Cunningham and Foster would have to work incredibly hard for that to work though.

[foghornred]

Its like us playing the Football Manager game, you play around with formation until you stumble on a winning formation !

[The Bard]

"Formations don't win or lose matches, players do" - SAF

That's blatantly aimed at his own players - ie don't think you'll get away with blaming the formation if you play crap and get beat. A lot of public pronouncements by the major managers are aimed solely at their own players.

[sglosbcfc]

We're in agreement. Seeing how the back 5 worked OK, I think we should use something in between going defensive and attacking, so as you say, a trio in midfield perhaps.

Maybe something a little like this:

----------------------------------------Gerken*----------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------Bates---------------------------Fontaine

---------------------------------------McManus---------------------------------------

Foster------------------------------------------------------------------Cunningham

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

----------------------Skuse-----------Danns---------Elliot--------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------Baldock-----------Davies----------------------------

*My preference

Cunningham and Foster would have to work incredibly hard for that to work though.

I feel we have to have Stead or Taylor in the starting eleven. In the Championship it is vital to have a target man. I also think that any City team must have Albert Adomah who is undoubtedly our stand out performer.

[BigTone]

At the moment to survive we need a 9-7-5 formation but may get accused of cheating

[Cobby the red]

As long as they win I don't care I want six points more than any present.

I've got my brother with me boxing day and he is s Wednesday fan.

[Jordan Tansley]

Whistles I suggested a fluid 5-3-2 agggggges ago got pilliored for it. hey ho it's xmas

It's becoming more and more popular again, be nice to see a run of it.

[Red Skin]

Not convinced playing 3 centre backs was so much about a clever formation change... more about "how can I keep Fonts in the team now Cunningham is back and Bates is clearly much better"

I don't believe for one minute Del would not keep any player in the team out of some sort of misguided loyalty if he did not truly think he offered the best option. Ultimately Del's neck is on the chopping block if he can't turn things around. Del has had plenty of criticism for not playing players he has bought himself which would is what most managers do. Whilst some criticism for his buying policy may be inevitable as a result, and not everyone agrees with his selections but to say he will pick fonts out of blind loyalty is wrong.

[Red Skin]

As far as the Ipswich formation goes having Cunningham back (along with Foster's pace) is a massive plus and means this formation becomes an real option. Hopefully a settled Formation & back 5 will See us tighten up and breed some confidence in the players.

[GrahamC]

I agree RAF, plus with Albert possibly off to the ACN in January we could accommodate Davies or Baldock this way.