Payday Loan Sponsorship Newcastle

[TRL]

Anyone seen this story?

Papis Cisse may refuse to wear Newcastle's shirt with Wonga on it on ethical and religious grounds.

As a practising Muslim it is not seen in a good light. Newcastle have other practising Muslim's in tiote and ben arfa

I am wondering what will happen here? These 3 players going out on the pitch with no sponsorship on their shirts or even refusing to play?

[Brizzle Jordan]

Cisse, Ben Arfa and Tiote are 3 of their best 5 players aswell. They better hope they still want to play for the club

[BRISTOL86]

Ridiculous. Perhaps if they feel that strongly about it they should forgo their "wonga" altogether and find another club. It's their sponsors who ultimately pay their ridiculous wages. Maybe if they focus more on their football and less on who sponsors their shirt they can avoid another relgation scrap.

[TRL]

Ridiculous. Perhaps if they feel that strongly about it they should forgo their "wonga" altogether and find another club. It's their sponsors who ultimately pay their ridiculous wages.

It is a possibility. Their religion you would assume would come above football.

Puts Newcastle in a awkward situation, and any other club who maybe looking to purchase them, certainly starts cutting down your sponsorship opportunities!

[CheddarReds]

Silly seeing 'Wonga' on a football shirt. Don't have a clue what's going to be done with Cisse's objections

[BRISTOL86]

It is a possibility. Their religion you would assume would come above football.

Puts Newcastle in a awkward situation, and any other club who maybe looking to purchase them, certainly starts cutting down your sponsorship opportunities!

I don't understand the religion objection. I had to study Islamic finance as part of my accountancy qualification and as I recall, the charging of all kinds of interest is forbidden in Islamic finance. So why payday loan companies specifically? I have no doubt that Newcastle and probably most other clubs have other backers in the financial sector who presumably make some money through the charging of interest, so where do you draw the line on "religious grounds". Many people see payday loan companies as unethical but to bring religion into it is a weak argument.

I'm sure you could find many examples of corporate sponsorship that in some way might go against many players moral/ethical/religious beliefs, but ultimately, you play for your club and have a contract to fulfill. If the club associate themselves with a company that you don't like - for whatever reason - that doesn't mean you can do what you want. Presumably (hopefully) refusal to play would be met with disciplinary action from the FA/PFA or whoever.

[ollywhyte]

Poor excuse to try and force a move away from the club.

[BRISTOL86]

Poor excuse to try and force a move away from the club.

Not sure if that's his end game, but I agree with the poor excuse bit!

[TRL]

I don't understand the religion objection. I had to study Islamic finance as part of my accountancy qualification and as I recall, the charging of all kinds of interest is forbidden in Islamic finance. So why payday loan companies specifically? I have no doubt that Newcastle and probably most other clubs have other backers in the financial sector who presumably make some money through the charging of interest, so where do you draw the line on "religious grounds". Many people see payday loan companies as unethical but to bring religion into it is a weak argument.

I'm sure you could find many examples of corporate sponsorship that in some way might go against many players moral/ethical/religious beliefs, but ultimately, you play for your club and have a contract to fulfill. If the club associate themselves with a company that you don't like - for whatever reason - that doesn't mean you can do what you want. Presumably (hopefully) refusal to play would be met with disciplinary action from the FA/PFA or whoever.

All depends just how far he is willing to support his religion over football. And if he had any caveats in his contract concerning his religion.

If he were to get fined and the fa involved, I am sure he would go down the religious discrimination route. A route the FA and club surely wouldn't want to go down.

Of course this all could be paper talk and utter rubbish. But certainly makes for a good debate

Edit. There was a case where a player abroad could play with no sponsorship on his shirt. I wonder if that is a compromise both parties would entertain?

[JamesBCFC]

I don't understand the religion objection. I had to study Islamic finance as part of my accountancy qualification and as I recall, the charging of all kinds of interest is forbidden in Islamic finance. So why payday loan companies specifically? I have no doubt that Newcastle and probably most other clubs have other backers in the financial sector who presumably make some money through the charging of interest, so where do you draw the line on "religious grounds". Many people see payday loan companies as unethical but to bring religion into it is a weak argument.

I'm sure you could find many examples of corporate sponsorship that in some way might go against many players moral/ethical/religious beliefs, but ultimately, you play for your club and have a contract to fulfill. If the club associate themselves with a company that you don't like - for whatever reason - that doesn't mean you can do what you want. Presumably (hopefully) refusal to play would be met with disciplinary action from the FA/PFA or whoever.

I believe that he feels that he shouldn't help promote wonga because of his beliefs

[Pickle Rick]

They'll have to remove it as its not very E & D and will be very frowned upon by others in and outside the club.

When will some clubs put more ethical thought into their choice of what they want to promote/allow. Not just on shirts, but around the orientation of the club itself?!

Disgraceful, especially for a club of their size.

[ollywhyte]

Not sure if that's his end game, but I agree with the poor excuse bit!

It just seems all a bit contradictory, he refuses to wear a pay day loan companies brand name yet last season wore 'Virgin Money' across his top, a company that often charges interest rates too? Surely that's offensive to his religion as well?

[Pickle Rick]

It just seems all a bit contradictory, he refuses to wear a pay day loan companies brand name yet last season wore 'Virgin Money' across his top, a company that often charges interest rates too? Surely that's offensive to his religion as well?

The main issue is someone has now cited an issue down to religion.

E & D is a big thing and won't be ignored if someone has a 'religious issue' - no matter others may think.

Has he actually spoken out to the media or is it a media wind up topic?

[hippy273]

Poor excuse to try and force a move away from the club.

Any old excuse to join Demba Ba

[BRISTOL86]

The main issue is someone has now cited an issue down to religion.

E & D is a big thing and won't be ignored if someone has a 'religious issue' - no matter others may think.

Has he actually spoken out to the media or is it a media wind up topic?

That's where some clarity is required. Because as far as I'm aware the only way religion comes into it is with Sharia finance principles, which state that the charging of interest is unacceptable. And yes Virgin Money will of course charge interest on their products. So I'm keen to know whether religion does actually come into it in a way that I'm not aware or whether it's just him trying to engineer a problem.

On a side note, when did all this fuss about payday loan companies start? They're upfront and honest about both their purpose and their extortionate interest rates, but they seem to be the in thing for the moral high-grounders to get upset about.

I'd put a lot of money on the fact that alcohol has ruined many more lives than payday loan companies, but no one gets on their high horse about Blackthorn sponsoring us. Or Heineken sponsoring the champions league. Or the Worthington Cup!

[GrahamC]

Actually funny you mention alcohol, Hashim Amla of South Africa's cricket side refuses to wear the sponsor's name (Castle Lager) on his shirt and everyone simply accepts it (he wears a plain one).

Islamic law prevents some forms of finance, meaning many Muslims will only bank with organisations that are ethically approved, to me if this payday loan company offends his religion then fair enough.

[BRISTOL86]

Actually funny you mention alcohol, Hashim Amla of South Africa's cricket side refuses to wear the sponsor's name (Castle Lager) on his shirt and everyone simply accepts it (he wears a plain one).

Islamic law prevents some forms of finance, meaning many Muslims will only bank with organisations that are ethically approved, to me if this payday loan company offends his religion then fair enough.

So then it becomes up to players who clubs use as their sponsors? As if top flight players don't have enough power and influence over things.

The modern game is ridiculous.

Islamic finance law prohibits the charging of interest. Virgin Money do that, so without knowing more, I don't see how it's OK to wear Virgin Money and not Wonga.

[BRISTOL86]

Another prime example is gambling. Strictly forbidden in Islam, yet how many Islamic players are at clubs sponsored by gambling companies, or facilitators, or similar things?

I don't know, but I guess a lot. Off the top of my head:

Villa, Fulham, Stoke, Swansea, West Ham, Wigan, Real Madrid all sponsored by gamling companies, casinos, forex speculation etc.

[glynriley]

It is a possibility. Their religion you would assume would come above football.

Puts Newcastle in a awkward situation, and any other club who maybe looking to purchase them, certainly starts cutting down your sponsorship opportunities!

An awkward situation.

Probably not worth mentioning but an generally goes before words beginning with a vowel. (there are some exceptions)

Sorry for the English lesson , as you were.

[pride of the west]

No problem with this. Not religious myself, far from it, but the man has to stick up for his beliefs. Just dont put it on his shirt. The publicity around it and people pointing it out will probably greatly benefit the firm any way.

Cruif always had a stripe taken off his adidas dutch shirt as he was sponsored by puma. Didnt want to be seen with 3 stripes. Granted it was a different generation but surely religous reasons hold more weight than a personal sponsorship deal.

[mylesgc]

Im not being funny but who pays there wages? You wear whatever the kit is whether its wonga or football manager. He's probably getting at least 40 k at Newcastle so get on with it.

[Sleepy1968]

As pointed out by other posters I think his motives might be suspect. If it was me and I truly objected would keep quiet and just sabotage my shirt. All he's got to do is quickly obliterate the 'W' with a black marker pen just before kick off. Job done. I don't see Newcastle backing down unless there is a general groundswell of opinion against Wonga being associated with the club.

[duncan disorderley]

A bit of a nothing story really. As people have pointed out, we have alcohol sponsors and gambling sponsors yet everybody turns a blind eye to it. Next you will have someone say, he will only play when they are kicking towards Mecca. If he doesn't want to play for the club he should hand in a transfer request and fore go his contract money.The whole pussy footing over peoples religion is becoming so boring.

Bristol 86, With the regards to the interest subject, are muslims allowed to except interest paid to them from the banks on savings?

[!james]

Another prime example is gambling. Strictly forbidden in Islam, yet how many Islamic players are at clubs sponsored by gambling companies, or facilitators, or similar things?

I don't know, but I guess a lot. Off the top of my head:

Villa, Fulham, Stoke, Swansea, West Ham, Wigan, Real Madrid all sponsored by gamling companies, casinos, forex speculation etc.

http://forums.thedigitalfix.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-442994.html

Kanoute wore a blank shirt at Sevilla due to the 888.com gambling sponsor, so has been done before

[TBW]

http://forums.thedigitalfix.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-442994.html

Kanoute wore a blank shirt at Sevilla due to the 888.com gambling sponsor, so has been done before

Gah, beat me to it. Sure he's not the only one to have done it before either.

[MarcusX]

Not sure if anyone else mentioned it haven't read all posts but my understanding is the moral objection is making money through charging interest.

Correct me if I'm wrong but they play in the Barclays premier league. Barclays earn money through charging interest. Surely their religious morals would stop them playing the league altogether?

[Timbo7]

So once again the self-appointed morality patrol is having its say.

Whilst the Old Testament repeatedly condemns the concept (rather than degree) of interest charged on capital loans, English translations of the Quran tend to use the word "usury" which has over the last few hundred years come to mean only excessive or punitive interest taking advantage of the unfortunate. Hence, whilst Sharia Law is commonly understood to prohibit the earning of interest in any form, there are many millions of Muslims who are able to adopt a more pragmatic approach to the modern World without abandoning their faith altogether. Only a bigot could deny anyone the right to consider four digit annual interest immoral (whether on religious grounds or otherwise) without condemning the fabric of capitalist society (i.e. that the use of capital must have a price).

Any sustainable religious belief or morality requires judgement as to what is and what is not acceptable by reference to degree rather than absolutes - and in any society the degree that is acceptable will necessarily change over time.

Just as some Christians have cause to doubt the accuracy of the Book of Genesis without abandoning their Faith altogether, some Muslims have come to accept that credit at reasonable rates is a necessary evil to permit economic development without abandoning Islam.

Whether or not a highly paid Premier League footballer is entitled to refuse to carry the name of a business he considers immoral without being in breach of contract is another matter entirely but for all we might feel qualified to say about it, it is ultimately a private matter for him and his employer to resolve.

[BRISTOL86]

So once again the self-appointed morality patrol is having its say.

Whilst the Old Testament repeatedly condemns the concept (rather than degree) of interest charged on capital loans, English translations of the Quran tend to use the word "usury" which has over the last few hundred years come to mean only excessive or punitive interest taking advantage of the unfortunate. Hence, whilst Sharia Law is commonly understood to prohibit the earning of interest in any form, there are many millions of Muslims who are able to adopt a more pragmatic approach to the modern World without abandoning their faith altogether. Only a bigot could deny anyone the right to consider four digit annual interest immoral (whether on religious grounds or otherwise) without condemning the fabric of capitalist society (i.e. that the use of capital must have a price).

Any sustainable religious belief or morality requires judgement as to what is and what is not acceptable by reference to degree rather than absolutes - and in any society the degree that is acceptable will necessarily change over time.

Just as some Christians have cause to doubt the accuracy of the Book of Genesis without abandoning their Faith altogether, some Muslims have come to accept that credit at reasonable rates is a necessary evil to permit economic development without abandoning Islam.

Whether or not a highly paid Premier League footballer is entitled to refuse to carry the name of a business he considers immoral without being in breach of contract is another matter entirely but for all we might feel qualified to say about it, it is ultimately a private matter for him and his employer to resolve.

I just think it's a slippery road to go down once players start having the final say on who a club can and cannot enter into commercial arrangements with.

The way I'd deal with it would be to allow Cisse to wear a blank shirt and then calculate the proportion of his wages which are being paid for - in essence - by the sponsor in question, and deduct them from him. Ultimately if he objects that much to their affiliation with the club, I'm sure he'd rather not accept their "dirty money", as it were.

Maybe I'm just getting old but for me religion and politics have no place in football. Cisse is an employee of Newcastle United and whoever Newcastle choose to enter into sponsorship with is ultimately not Cisse's place to question.

Ultimately the only losers here will be Newcastle. As soon as religion is brought into it, they can't win. If they pander to Cisse they look weak and it appears that the players pull the strings, which could open a floodgate and set a precedent for any player to refuse to endorse X Y and Z product because they don't like it. If they take a hard line, they'll be lambasted as "anti Islamic" or whatever and Cisse will get the move that he is (cynic hat on) angling for.

Funny also how it's "morally wrong" to borrow £100 and pay back £150 a month later, but it's fine for clubs to spend tens of millions on footballers wages whilst spectators struggle to pay for their increasingly expensive match tickets as a result.

[screech]

Is there anything more hypocritical than religion.

You either buy into the book of fairy stories completely or you don't. You cannot have it all, you're either a believer no questions or a hypocrite. Picking and choosing which bits in life we like or don't like is what we all do isn't it.

I scoff at the disgusting wages they earn but give me a chance to earn it and everythings fine by me. I'm a hypocrite too, but at least I'm open about it and not trying to hide behind a religious morale high ground.

If he was that religious he would give up everything for his god, I guess he doesn't read that chapter.

[BRISTOL86]

Is there anything more hypocritical than religion.

You either buy into the book of fairy stories completely or you don't. You cannot have it all, you're either a believer no questions or a hypocrite. Picking and choosing which bits in life we like or don't like is what we all do isn't it.

I scoff at the disgusting wages they earn but give me a chance to earn it and everythings fine by me. I'm a hypocrite too, but at least I'm open about it and not trying to hide behind a religious morale high ground.

If he was that religious he would give up everything for his god, I guess he doesn't read that chapter.

I agree in that he's picking and choosing when the Islamic finance principles do and don't come into it. How many millions of pounds have Virgin Money made in interest? Probably a lot more than Wonga over their history, but that wasn't a problem to have emblazoned on his shirt.

From Wiki (not the most reliable source, but the basic principles are spot on)

The term “Islamic banking” refers to a system of banking or banking activity that is consistent with Islamic law (Shariah) principles and guided by Islamic economics. In particular, Islamic law prohibits usury, the collection and payment of interest, also commonly called riba in Islamic discourse. In addition, Islamic law prohibits investing in businesses that are considered unlawful, or haraam (such as businesses that sell alcohol or pork, or businesses that produce media such as gossip columns or pornography, which are contrary to Islamic values).

So here we see that the collection and payment of interest is prohibited in Sharia law. Sorry but how can you say Wonga violates this and not Virgin Money, who offer credit cards, loans, mortgages etc.

Also note that Sharia law considers alcohol unlawful. Therefore presumably he would refuse to play in the Champions League unless they end their long running affiliation with Heineken?

I'm sorry but you can't just pick and choose your values to suit your own situation. If you want to object on religious grounds then fine, but it's got to be all or nothing. For me it's just a weak argument in order to engineer the situation in his favour. Maybe I'm just cynical and disillusioned with the modern footballer, but there you go.

Also a quick look at the Newcastle website shows that they are in commercial partnership with BetButler and Carling. So surely even if they ditch Wonga, he wouldn't want to play for a club endorsing gambling and alcohol?