BRISTOL86 Posted August 12, 2013 Report Share Posted August 12, 2013 A comment I just read in another thread made me think of this question. For the record I'm not saying we should go down this route My question is, hypothetically, could a club terminate a player's contract if they were bloody awful? For example, if I perform my duties in my job with an apparent lack of commitment and aptitude for the task involved, there will only be so long my manager will tolerate it without opening some kind of disciplinary proceedings that could - eventually - lead to me losing my job. My question is, are footballers immune from this, and if so, why? A footballer is a contracted employee like any other, employed to do a certain task. If a player showed through their on field performances that they were clearly not up to the task at hand, could a club take action? For illustration, lets say Man Utd signed me as their first choice GK. Clearly my remit would be to not concede an unacceptable amount of goals and show desire and commitment to my job. Now lets say I've played 30 games and let in 150 goals. Clearly I am incapable of performing the task at hand, could Man Utd sack me? I've never heard of a pro player being sacked because they were crap. Obviously players get sacked for misconduct etc, but are they - for some reason - untouchable legally regarding their "job performance", or is it just the done thing that this doesn't happen? Interesting thought. Before anyone flames me this isn't in response to Fontaine's performance, i just saw a comment that got me thinking... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Horse With No Name Posted August 12, 2013 Report Share Posted August 12, 2013 And if the answer is no, then why can a manager be sacked for exactly the same reason? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beaverface Posted August 12, 2013 Report Share Posted August 12, 2013 A comment I just read in another thread made me think of this question. For the record I'm not saying we should go down this route My question is, hypothetically, could a club terminate a player's contract if they were bloody awful? For example, if I perform my duties in my job with an apparent lack of commitment and aptitude for the task involved, there will only be so long my manager will tolerate it without opening some kind of disciplinary proceedings that could - eventually - lead to me losing my job. My question is, are footballers immune from this, and if so, why? A footballer is a contracted employee like any other, employed to do a certain task. If a player showed through their on field performances that they were clearly not up to the task at hand, could a club take action? For illustration, lets say Man Utd signed me as their first choice GK. Clearly my remit would be to not concede an unacceptable amount of goals and show desire and commitment to my job. Now lets say I've played 30 games and let in 150 goals. Clearly I am incapable of performing the task at hand, could Man Utd sack me? I've never heard of a pro player being sacked because they were crap. Obviously players get sacked for misconduct etc, but are they - for some reason - untouchable legally regarding their "job performance", or is it just the done thing that this doesn't happen? Interesting thought. Before anyone flames me this isn't in response to Fontaine's performance, i just saw a comment that got me thinking... I guess it would be hard to attribute all the fault to one player though. Using your analogy, the goalkeeper could say it was the defence fault for constantly letting the attackers through one on one. It's too subjective and too much of a team game to sack someone on their (lack of) ability IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockleazeRed Posted August 12, 2013 Report Share Posted August 12, 2013 I'm adlibbing this, but I guess because the nature of a player's performance can always be classed as subjective, even if its apparent that they aren't up to the task. I think the difference to a Manager is that they come in with a set of KPIs (Key Performance Indicators) that they are expected to achieve. Like in sales positions, for example, there will be a part of the contract that if KPIs aren't hit for an acceptable amount of time then the company has the right to remove the employee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downendcity Posted August 12, 2013 Report Share Posted August 12, 2013 A comment I just read in another thread made me think of this question. For the record I'm not saying we should go down this route My question is, hypothetically, could a club terminate a player's contract if they were bloody awful? For example, if I perform my duties in my job with an apparent lack of commitment and aptitude for the task involved, there will only be so long my manager will tolerate it without opening some kind of disciplinary proceedings that could - eventually - lead to me losing my job. My question is, are footballers immune from this, and if so, why? A footballer is a contracted employee like any other, employed to do a certain task. If a player showed through their on field performances that they were clearly not up to the task at hand, could a club take action? For illustration, lets say Man Utd signed me as their first choice GK. Clearly my remit would be to not concede an unacceptable amount of goals and show desire and commitment to my job. Now lets say I've played 30 games and let in 150 goals. Clearly I am incapable of performing the task at hand, could Man Utd sack me? I've never heard of a pro player being sacked because they were crap. Obviously players get sacked for misconduct etc, but are they - for some reason - untouchable legally regarding their "job performance", or is it just the done thing that this doesn't happen? Interesting thought. Before anyone flames me this isn't in response to Fontaine's performance, i just saw a comment that got me thinking... The question you are really asking is, can the club sack a player for being Liam Fontaine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRISTOL86 Posted August 12, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2013 The question you are really asking is, can the club sack a player for being Liam Fontaine? Ha, it was a comment in that thread that made me ponder the question, but no, it's not something id like to see from my club, just made me wonder in general about it. Footballers do lead a very 'untouchable' lifestyle in general but I think as others have said, individual performance is very subjective - on OTIB especially Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GodEmperor Palpatine Posted August 12, 2013 Report Share Posted August 12, 2013 Would say no but thought a players contract could be mutually terminated if both player and manager agree but then there is compo in paying up the contract I would've thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipdawg Posted August 12, 2013 Report Share Posted August 12, 2013 You can't sack a player for being rubbish; the club made an assessment of his ability and gave him a contract of a certain length. When players leave a contract early through 'mutual consent' it's usually only mutual because the player has their contract paid up And to answer another question, when managers are sacked they have their contract paid up, so it's more of a 'paid off' than a 'sacked' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoyalRed Posted August 12, 2013 Report Share Posted August 12, 2013 Merge with Fontaine Gas thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted August 12, 2013 Report Share Posted August 12, 2013 Ridiculous topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRISTOL86 Posted August 12, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2013 Ridiculous topic. There's always one. Why is it ridiculous? It's a genuine and somewhat interesting idea that a pro footballer has immunity from the consequences that "normal" people face relating to adverse job performance. Not really sure why it's ridiculous to ponder that thought on a football forum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRISTOL86 Posted August 12, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2013 Merge with Fontaine Gas thread Why? This is nothing to do with Fontaine and is a general question about footballers in general, not specific individuals. Think I already mentioned that it's not something I would like our club to do. Some right muppets on here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Maesknoll Red Posted August 12, 2013 Admin Report Share Posted August 12, 2013 Not sure why its a ridiculous topic, shouldn't players be accountable and be subject to some sort of poor performance policy, just as any other employee. John Sitton sacked a player at half time in a match (Leyton Orient) it was being filmed for a documentary, its on you tube. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted August 12, 2013 Report Share Posted August 12, 2013 There's always one. Why is it ridiculous? It's a genuine and somewhat interesting idea that a pro footballer has immunity from the consequences that "normal" people face relating to adverse job performance. Not really sure why it's ridiculous to ponder that thought on a football forum! Because we all know why this has been posted. Could we sack Nicky Hunt? Tony Dinning? No, we couldn't. So we can't sack the player this is obviously aimed at, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WTFiGO!?! Posted August 12, 2013 Report Share Posted August 12, 2013 Which idiot suggested this rediculous idea, then? :laugh: I just remember leaving AG after just about every visit last season thinking if I'd been as ##### useless in my job as some of them out there doing theirs were, I would no longer be in my job - not a single chance. But hey-ho, just saying.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoyalRed Posted August 12, 2013 Report Share Posted August 12, 2013 Why? This is nothing to do with Fontaine and is a general question about footballers in general, not specific individuals. Think I already mentioned that it's not something I would like our club to do. Some right muppets on here! Sure... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REDOXO Posted August 12, 2013 Report Share Posted August 12, 2013 And if the answer is no, then why can a manager be sacked for exactly the same reason? A managers contract is terminated when the club pay it up. A manager may/often will have termination verbiage in the contract itself as football is one of the few cases where it is almost inevitable. Players will have no such language and termination would need to be at mutual consent even if the club want to just pay it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRISTOL86 Posted August 12, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2013 Because we all know why this has been posted. Could we sack Nicky Hunt? Tony Dinning? No, we couldn't. So we can't sack the player this is obviously aimed at, either. Actually you're quite wrong. As I've said if you bothered to read fully before spouting off, I saw someone else's comment about said player which got me pondering the point in general. Tough concept to grasp I know but try reading the post before getting huffy about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRISTOL86 Posted August 12, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2013 Sure... Oh of course you know more about why I posted something than I do! Really are some first class helmets on here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Always Believesham Posted August 12, 2013 Report Share Posted August 12, 2013 Is it something around fixed term contracts? To justify sacking them, surely, as a business, they would have to be costing the club (business) money. Whether this is costing the club more than they are being paid, or costing the club more money by being there than if they were not, I can't think to justify my guess. If a striker was sacked for not scoring goals (for example) and a replacement was drafted in and he didn't score goals, could the first striker have grounds for unfair dismissal? Or using the money example, if the club continued to loose money at the same rate (or not at a rate high enough to justify sacking a player), after sacking a player, the dismissal wouldn't have been justified, thus unfair. In short: if you pay up a player's contract, all bases are covered, if you sack him and nothing changes, anyone else could have been sacked instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cityexile Posted August 12, 2013 Report Share Posted August 12, 2013 Answer would be 'no' 99% of the time, including just playing badly. The 1% would be I guess if it could be counted as gross misconduct. I don't know - Fred wants a transfer that is turned down. Does not turn up for training - if picked clearly goes beyond just playing badly, but makes a point of never running. In that situation I would argue there is a case for dismissal. Footballers are not, to the best of my knowledge, immune from employment law - but the proof would be terribly subjective. Like the idea of all players being on 3 months probation mind! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRISTOL86 Posted August 12, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2013 Some good responses to this, proves what a minefield employment/contract law is if nothing else! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibor Posted August 12, 2013 Report Share Posted August 12, 2013 Because we all know why this has been posted.Could we sack Nicky Hunt? Tony Dinning?No, we couldn't. So we can't sack the player this is obviously aimed at, either.You're confusing couldn't and didn't.It IS an interesting question.I am pretty sure it could be done, whether it's worth the risk is the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cider_dog Posted August 12, 2013 Report Share Posted August 12, 2013 Not sure why its a ridiculous topic, shouldn't players be accountable and be subject to some sort of poor performance policy, just as any other employee. John Sitton sacked a player at half time in a match (Leyton Orient) it was being filmed for a documentary, its on you tube. He also offered another guy a fight after the match... Not the best example of good man management to be honest. If you don't agree with me then YOU 'can bring yer dinner' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kachina Posted August 12, 2013 Report Share Posted August 12, 2013 Quite simply yes you can sack a player, if you want to end his contract however you have to officially release them from their duties which means it's your decision to remove them from the job that they were hired to do, so you have to pay them the money owed to them until the end of their signed contract, which if the player had a decent amount of time remaining on the contract would not be cheap but it does get them off the squad if you feel they bring a negative atmosphere to the club. Also you can mutually terminate which could be say I have 2 years left on my contract, but I'm not playing and clubs won't take me on loan as my wage demands are too high (the club wants at least 70% of my wages paid) or they won't pay a fee to the club as they deem me no longer wanted so why should they pay. The problem with a free transfer is simple, if club b , doesn't match my current wage and the club selling me decide to sell me, then the club who sold legally have to pay the difference in wages I miss out on under the new contract until my old contract would have expired. If there is a transfer fee and the wages are less than previously on, the club would have to pay the player the difference from the fee collected. The latter happens enough when a player was on too much money so effectively they don't become worth buying so as a rule, no club will buy me, although I may be happy to take less money. When this happens the club and player will meet and agree to terminate the contract, at this stage, the club will normally offer the player 50% of his remaining contract up front and leaves him free to find a new club. Any player wanting games and not just the money would agree to this, providing their agent is confident there will be offers on the table quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tauntons Finest Posted August 12, 2013 Report Share Posted August 12, 2013 Oi birty big bolloxs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i hate rovers Posted August 12, 2013 Report Share Posted August 12, 2013 You're confusing couldn't and didn't. It IS an interesting question. I am pretty sure it could be done, whether it's worth the risk is the question. sounds like me asking my mrs a sexual favour..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exAtyeoMax Posted August 12, 2013 Report Share Posted August 12, 2013 if the player was dropped and only played in the reserves, do they get their pay reduced? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRISTOL86 Posted August 12, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2013 Ill just go complete overreaction. yes has been poor, but goodgrief pitchforks and torches out tonight. We are not as good as we think we are, yet. Get over it! And another one. Read the post before replying and you'll note this is nothing to do with individuals, merely someone's reaction prompted a musing on the subject in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoyalRed Posted August 12, 2013 Report Share Posted August 12, 2013 Ill just go complete overreaction. yes has been poor, but goodgrief pitchforks and torches out tonight. We are not as good as we think we are, yet. Get over it! Who are you talking about ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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