Supporter Or Customer?

[BrizzleRed]

I've been reading some of the early criticism of tactics and results on here from some fans and shaking my head in disbelief at their apparent impatience. Even this early in the season we already seem to have two deeply entrenched, polarised camps.

On the one hand there's the side that I completely subscribe to, who are looking at the long term rebuilding of the club from the bottom up and fully expected this to take time to bear fruit. On the other side, there's a group of posters who feel they're just seeing more of the same and want to see an upturn in results .......... NOW.

You can see from the posts that both sides fully believe they are right in their way of thinking and are passionately standing their ground on the issue. I personally can't understand the impatience of some of the posters, who just don't seem prepared to contemplate that this rebuilding will take time.

Then a thought struck me. Could these differences be due to how fans view their connection to this club?

I know I could be completely wrong with this, but I'm wondering if the fans in the 'give it time' camp are generally the old skool type, who are viewing all this as a longer term project and consider supporting this club as pretty much unconditional.

On the other hand, is there a possibility that the more critical fans have bought into/been pushed by the current direction of football in general into viewing themselves as customers as well as supporters?

This for me would explain the apparent inexplicable lack of patience at what the club are trying to do. To be fair to these critics, they seem to be passionate in their arguments, so IF THEY DO buy into the customer point of view, this could explain their criticisms due to them feeling short changed by the 'product' they are receiving at the moment. This could also explain actions like the booing that was directed at the time wasting at the end of the match yesterday. IF those supporters were viewing themselves primarily as paying customers, you could then certainly appreciate their view of being short changed.

As I said, I could be way off the mark here, but I'd be really interested to hear the views of people from both sides on how deep down, they see their primary connection to this club.

Supporter or customer?

Thoughts?

[Bat Fastard]

I am firmly in the supporter camp and like to see young players coming through the Academy and making the grade. John Atyeo, Trevor Tainton, Louis Carey and their like are the ideal role models as far as I am concerned. City should be a club that aims to build success on the pitch largely by developing talent - and not a badly run, greedy, short sighted and insensitive money-grabbing company.

[BrizzleRed]

I am firmly in the supporter camp and like to see young players coming through the Academy and making the grade. John Atyeo, Trevor Tainton, Louis Carey and their like are the ideal role models as far as I am concerned. City should be a club that aims to build success on the pitch largely by developing talent - and not a badly run, greedy, short sighted and insensitive money-grabbing company.

Cheers BF

I also noticed your thread further down after I posted this and there's a definite connection between the two I reckon.

Clubs definitely seem to be treating fans as customers and it's a dangerous game in my mind, as if they supply a poor 'product' they'll be leaving themselves open to major grief.

The main problem I can see, is when the 'customer' is also a supporter, if the product is poor, they'll either withdraw their support, or more likely still come to matches, but moan like ****, which may be the problem we're seeing atm.

[RedZoneJim]

Great post BR.

What I don't get about the impatient posters is why the need for promotion so badly this season? If we go up with no foundations again we're back to exactly where we were before, relying on SL to prop up an escalating wage bill as it costs more and more to stand still. The biggest likelihood with that is we would get relegated again and probably gone through another 5 managers to be in exactly the same place.

If we get promoted this season because everything at the club's improved over the season that would be brilliant but I can't stand the idea of getting promoted and then having a repeat of the last three years in the next three years. Why is getting promoted this season the only thing that matters to some people, I just can't get my head around it.

This is the level I've watched City most at, it's not like we're Forest or Southampton or Leeds and being in League One is unusual or a crisis. But doing things properly now means we could be the next Derby, an established solid Championship team, which I think should be our first aim before we start thinking about being the next Swansea or Norwich. The only way we're going to do that is by not going into meltdown after 4 games.

BTW anyone else noticed Bolton have only got 2 points from their first 4 games. Wonder if their supporters are over-reacting about their play off hopes as much as some of ours.

[RedRock]

I'm a supporter, have been for 45+ years - one of the original East Enders. Seen us through thick and thin - in the 40,000 vs Liverpool and the 3,500 in the 4th Division. Aways with thousands to Arsenal and a few dozen to Chester.

Impatient? No, more deeply, deeply frustrated. Frustrated that the £millions that SL has poured into the Club seems to have been wasted by players who don't give a s*it for our Club and administrators who don't appear to be on the same planet as the rest of us. Back to where we started it seems.

On-the-field side we've heard for the past 4 years from the 'things will get better tomorrow' brigade, the Academy will eventually deliver, those who have either lost it or never had it will turn the corner, that we'll develop a team with mental strength and leaders, that our weaknesses will be addressed.

Off-the-field, it seems just utter chaos.

Solutions? Off-the-field, just bring back Ticketmaster. I'm more than happy to pay a quid extra booking fee for a professional and reliable service. Also, bring back a few 'pay on the gate' turnstiles. Simple stuff eh?

On-the-field, I'm still behind the SoD revolution but ... get us a mentally and physically strong leader in the centre of the park will you? We've got a £million odd for Albert just spend a bit of that please. We're not going to get out of this league with a team of physical and mental lightweights - stating the blindingly obvious, but the obvious seems to pass most of our recent managers by unfortunately.

[BrizzleRed]

I'm a supporter, have been for 45+ years - one of the original East Enders. Seen us through thick and thin - in the 40,000 vs Liverpool and the 3,500 in the 4th Division. Aways with thousands to Arsenal and a few dozen to Chester.

Impatient? No, more deeply, deeply frustrated. Frustrated that the £millions that SL has poured into the Club seems to have been wasted by players who don't give a s*it for our Club and administrators who don't appear to be on the same planet as the rest of us. Back to where we started it seems.

On-the-field side we've heard for the past 4 years from the 'things will get better tomorrow' brigade, the Academy will eventually deliver, those who have either lost it or never had it will turn the corner, that we'll develop a team with mental strength and leaders, that our weaknesses will be addressed.

Off-the-field, it seems just utter chaos.

Solutions? Off-the-field, just bring back Ticketmaster. I'm more than happy to pay a quid extra booking fee for a professional and reliable service. Also, bring back a few 'pay on the gate' turnstiles. Simple stuff eh?

On-the-field, I'm still behind the SoD revolution but ... get us a mentally and physically strong leader in the centre of the park will you? We've got a £million odd for Albert just spend a bit of that please. We're not going to get out of this league with a team of physical and mental lightweights - stating the blindingly obvious, but the obvious seems to pass most of our recent managers by unfortunately.

Sympathise and can agree with ALL your views and sentiments there M2S.

I know there are some grey areas here, but I suspect that like me, you'd like to see us back in the days when fans felt like they were actually treated like fans. It now seems like a long time ago tbh.

I think things really started going wrong on that front when the East End was made all seater against the fans wishes. I was one of the ones holding up the Keep the East End Standing posters all those years ago and it didn't make the slightest difference. Years later there were still grounds that hadn't gone all seater and I still think we went down that route far too quickly, but that's probably a subject for another thread.

[SimplyRed]

I've been reading some of the early criticism of tactics and results on here from some fans and shaking my head in disbelief at their apparent impatience. Even this early in the season we already seem to have two deeply entrenched, polarised camps.

On the one hand there's the side that I completely subscribe to, who are looking at the long term rebuilding of the club from the bottom up and fully expected this to take time to bear fruit. On the other side, there's a group of posters who feel they're just seeing more of the same and want to see an upturn in results .......... NOW.

Supporter or customer?

Thoughts?

Trouble is, BR, I think the problem is deeper than that. It is too simplistic to make a divide between those who "want promotion now" and those who are "looking at the long-term rebuilding".

I would put myself in the "Long-term rebuilding" camp, but with the large and important caveat that "SOME IMPROVEMENT MUST BE VISIBLE or TANGIBLE". I think this is where the argument falls over.

While O'Driscoll has certainly made some good signings (on paper!), we are not really seeing any improvement on the pitch 4 games into the season. With O'Driscoll's rhetoric at the fore on the official website all through the summer and pre-season, one would expect to see at least a modicum of improvement in how we play, tactically and physically.

The general consensus on this forum seems to be that, at times, we have been even worse than we were last season. While there has been some improvement in our goal-scoring capability, it seems our defence has taken a nosedive (even though our "best" signings of the summer were at centre back and goalkeeper).

As a fan,customer, supporter and follower of Bristol City since 1961, I've seen it all, and I have to say the signs aren't very good so far this season. As such, while I have no high expectation and would be happy with a mid-table finish, I fear that we are heading for another season of struggle and could well be involved in another relegation battle unless the players themselves start subscribing to O'Driscoll's philosophy and start playing the way he wants them to.

[bucksred]

Supporter, for thirty years or so, but gettin awfully sick of the were getting it right, were going places bullshit which infests so much of football.

Didnt and dont expect promotion this season, but do expect an improvement from the dire fare served up for the last four seasons. It shouldnt be hard should it? After all we have lost the vast majority of the rabble now...

Think quite a few are like me expecting to see some improvement, and a lot of those (not me) will drift away for good and support one of the Prem shite. Thats the way of it it nowadays, and we need to accept it is. The club definitely needs to keep long term supporters and customers/future long term supporters much, much better...its doing better, but needs to keep doing it...we dont just need locally produced players, but also the right experienced professionals to back these up. We have had few of this type of players recently. Tinman & Scotty were the last...

[Aizoon]

I'm a supporter, have been for 45+ years - one of the original East Enders. Seen us through thick and thin - in the 40,000 vs Liverpool and the 3,500 in the 4th Division. Aways with thousands to Arsenal and a few dozen to Chester.

Impatient? No, more deeply, deeply frustrated. Frustrated that the £millions that SL has poured into the Club seems to have been wasted by players who don't give a s*it for our Club and administrators who don't appear to be on the same planet as the rest of us. Back to where we started it seems.

On-the-field side we've heard for the past 4 years from the 'things will get better tomorrow' brigade, the Academy will eventually deliver, those who have either lost it or never had it will turn the corner, that we'll develop a team with mental strength and leaders, that our weaknesses will be addressed.

Off-the-field, it seems just utter chaos.

Solutions? Off-the-field, just bring back Ticketmaster. I'm more than happy to pay a quid extra booking fee for a professional and reliable service. Also, bring back a few 'pay on the gate' turnstiles. Simple stuff eh?

On-the-field, I'm still behind the SoD revolution but ... get us a mentally and physically strong leader in the centre of the park will you? We've got a £million odd for Albert just spend a bit of that please. We're not going to get out of this league with a team of physical and mental lightweights - stating the blindingly obvious, but the obvious seems to pass most of our recent managers by unfortunately.

Well said, that man.

As for the all-seater stadium, we were going to need that when we reached the Prem. Yes, I know it sounds daft now, but has any team ever got closer and failed?

[BrizzleRed]

Trouble is, BR, I think the problem is deeper than that. It is too simplistic to make a divide between those who "want promotion now" and those who are "looking at the long-term rebuilding".

I would put myself in the "Long-term rebuilding" camp, but with the large and important caveat that "SOME IMPROVEMENT MUST BE VISIBLE or TANGIBLE". I think this is where the argument falls over.

While O'Driscoll has certainly made some good signings (on paper!), we are not really seeing any improvement on the pitch 4 games into the season. With O'Driscoll's rhetoric at the fore on the official website all through the summer and pre-season, one would expect to see at least a modicum of improvement in how we play, tactically and physically.

The general consensus on this forum seems to be that, at times, we have been even worse than we were last season. While there has been some improvement in our goal-scoring capability, it seems our defence has taken a nosedive (even though our "best" signings of the summer were at centre back and goalkeeper).

As a fan,customer, supporter and follower of Bristol City since 1961, I've seen it all, and I have to say the signs aren't very good so far this season. As such, while I have no high expectation and would be happy with a mid-table finish, I fear that we are heading for another season of struggle and could well be involved in another relegation battle unless the players themselves start subscribing to O'Driscoll's philosophy and start playing the way he wants them to.

I see what you're saying, but let's compare with last season for a moment. At the end of the season, we were witnessing a series of gutless performances by a dysfunctional group of players who had basically given up and were receiving some right good stuffings on a regular basis.

I take the point about the defence and I'm certainly puzzled by the form of Cunningham and Maloney, who I thought were two very tidy players we needed to hold on to and build the defence around. Even then, the defensive lapses are far fewer now and are now turning potential wins into draws, or draws into narrow defeats, so I think things have improved.

Like you, I've been following City since the early 60's and tbh, I think this is possibly the most radical change I've seen in the playing side of this club in all that time, when you take into account the turn over of players, Academy, coaching, scouting etc.

When we appointed S'OD I feared relegation would be a likely outcome, as he doesn't have a reputation of being a kick em up the arse, instant turn around type of manager. His method seems clearly to be a steady, measured change. Although I may be over optimistic, I still feel we're already seeing green shoots of recovery, but I never expected an instant recovery, as that just isn't what S'OD is known for.

Hopefully I'm not being overly optimistic, but at least S'OD has a very good and consistant record of building up and promoting clubs from this division, so let's hope he can do it again with us.

[RedZoneJim]

While O'Driscoll has certainly made some good signings (on paper!), we are not really seeing any improvement on the pitch 4 games into the season. With O'Driscoll's rhetoric at the fore on the official website all through the summer and pre-season, one would expect to see at least a modicum of improvement in how we play, tactically and physically.

According to who? Only people on here! The constant theme that's come from the club is all the players being signed were potential. JET's lived up to the billing so far, Fielding maybe hasn't but people were getting carried away with the "great" signings of Wynter and Williams without knowing anything about them! Flint's had all our defensive hopes lumped on his shoulders but we were warned he needs an experienced player alongside him. What he's had is Fontaine being Fontaine and a kid who'd never started a senior game before last week. Is it any wonder he's looked shaky at times too?

Throw Pack into that too and the fact Bryan and Reid have both played and people wonder why we haven't got 16 points? What we're seeing is exactly what the majority are, unproven young players who've never played at this level before. As for not seeing improvement, disagree. The players look like they care and that's a massive thing after the last couple of years. The rest will come.

Said it in another thread yesterday but SOD was banging on about lack of strength in depth in defence and defensive frailties last week and he's seen us concede two more soft goals and throw away a win again yesterday. Does anyone honestly think he's going to be sat at home thinking everything's sweet? Bollocks is he!

[Champion Dung Spreader]

Customers can choose where they purchase products. Most of us go to Ashton Gate because our Fathers & Grandfathers went and our children & Grandchildren will support Bristol City. We cannot choose. We are much more than customers; we’re supporters.

A football team can only become more than the sum of its parts (synthesise) with supporters. We’ve all felt moments when support has kicked on City’s performance and in our hearts know that we are more than just customers.

[Welcome To The Jungle]

As a young man compared to many on this thread I'll throw my hat in. Been following City for just 12 years since I was 7, but have only really understood it for the past few seasons as before that I thought about the match day and the match day only. My opinion may not count for much but I hate the football generation I've been born into. I've said it before and I'll say it again. The sooner that BCFC and every other club in England (and the other lot across the bridge who play in our league) is owned by their fans the better. The sooner Sky is shown the door and 3pm on a Saturday is the norm the better. The sooner England's team is competitive again the better. All will be for the better in every aspect when Murdoc and his money are gone.

[BrizzleRed]

Customers can choose where they purchase products. Most of us go to Ashton Gate because our Fathers & Grandfathers went and our children & Grandchildren will support Bristol City. We cannot choose. We are much more than customers; we’re supporters.

A football team can only become more than the sum of its parts (synthesise) with supporters. We’ve all felt moments when support has kicked on City’s performance and in our hearts know that we are more than just customers.

What you are saying is spot on and all damn good reasons why football clubs SHOULDN'T treat their supporters as customers.

The problem I see is, this seems to be the way the game is going.

My question in the OP was, are some people, maybe unconsciously buying into that, and actually feeling like badly served customers and then feeling pissed off that the club doesn't deliver the goods to their satisfaction and timescale?

In the old football world of the past, supporters would take the rough with the smooth, but if you start believing you're in some kind of business transaction, you'll probably be a lot less tolerant. Hence maybe why some people are cutting the club far less slack.

[WTFiGO!?!]

Some people are more compliant with cliches such as 'keep the faith', 'look at the bigger picture', 'this is a transitional period' etc than others.

There is no guarantee of success even if you're patient for another 100 years so I don't think which ever point of the mindset spectrum you lie, you should be too critical of the opposing view.

Interrupting 5 year plans with 3 year projects followed by new initiatives, operations and movements is political language for: ''please vote for us, we are trying our best to sort things out, see?''.

I think people have every right to be sceptical, be compliant or just sit on the fence and say: ''we'll see..'' which is exactly what I intend to do.

[BrizzleRed]

As a young man compared to many on this thread I'll throw my hat in. Been following City for just 12 years since I was 7, but have only really understood it for the past few seasons as before that I thought about the match day and the match day only. My opinion may not count for much but I hate the football generation I've been born into. I've said it before and I'll say it again. The sooner that BCFC and every other club in England (and the other lot across the bridge who play in our league) is owned by their fans the better. The sooner Sky is shown the door and 3pm on a Saturday is the norm the better. The sooner England's team is competitive again the better. All will be for the better in every aspect when Murdoc and his money are gone.

AMEN TO THAT BROTHER!!!

It's getting impossible to have the passion for modern football, especially for an oldie like me, who has experienced the feeling of truly connecting with the club and players and feeling as one with them. I reckon this is also a big contributer to the general lack of atmosphere at games these days

It's interesting you already see this problem at your younger age, as it seems that many of your generation just don't understand what many of us older ones are banging on about.

There's times I feel like saying sod it, and watch some non league team instead, but I've been born into City and there can never be another club for me. Like you, I'd love to see football get back to its real roots and values and let the Prem glory boys go and play in some European or World league and leave the real spirit of football to the rest of us!

Here's hoping

[BrizzleRed]

Some people are more compliant with cliches such as 'keep the faith', 'look at the bigger picture', 'this is a transitional period' etc than others.

There is no guarantee of success even if you're patient for another 100 years so I don't think which ever point of the mindset spectrum you lie, you should be too critical of the opposing view.

Interrupting 5 year plans with 3 year projects followed by new initiatives, operations and movements is political language for: ''please vote for us, we are trying our best to sort things out, see?''.

I think people have every right to be sceptical, be compliant or just sit on the fence and say: ''we'll see..'' which is exactly what I intend to do.

But what you're saying is exactly what we've been doing for years, ie, chopping and changing managers and look where it's got us so far.

The last time we had some stability and gave a manager time, we reached the top flight under Alan Dicks, but he took a couple of years to start things rolling.

I think you'd have to be far more of an optimist than me to look beyond a "we'll see" anyway, but my beef is when people aren't even prepared to go that far and are already questioning if things will ever improve.

[WTFiGO!?!]

But what you're saying is exactly what we've been doing for years, ie, chopping and changing managers and look where it's got us so far.

The last time we had some stability and gave a manager time, we reached the top flight under Alan Dicks, but he took a couple of years to start things rolling.

I think you'd have to be far more of an optimist than me to look beyond a "we'll see" anyway, but my beef is when people aren't even prepared to go that far and are already questioning if things will ever improve.

I wasn't there for the glory days due to not being yet born but have on good authority that Alan Dicks was under every bit as much scrutiny as SOD is from fractions of our fan base. Hence the classic line 'Dicks Out!'. Don't know the mood after 4 games of his first full season, admittedly. Certainly remember both John Ward and Gary Johnson being severely scrutinised, early on.

So I guess my question back is: 'are we really less patient and understanding nowadays?'

Why should anyone who's followed this club for any period of time not be questioning if things will ever improve?

I am, for the record, quietly confident long term that SOD will stabilise the club, btw.

[Pickle Rick]

Basically, we are the paying customer.

Like a student to a teacher/institution is technically the customer.

Just trying to cut down the elaborative jibber jabber.

[Bat Fastard]

AMEN TO THAT BROTHER!!!

It's getting impossible to have the passion for modern football, especially for an oldie like me, who has experienced the feeling of truly connecting with the club and players and feeling as one with them. I reckon this is also a big contributer to the general lack of atmosphere at games these days

It's interesting you already see this problem at your younger age, as it seems that many of your generation just don't understand what many of us older ones are banging on about.

There's times I feel like saying sod it, and watch some non league team instead, but I've been born into City and there can never be another club for me. Like you, I'd love to see football get back to its real roots and values and let the Prem glory boys go and play in some European or World league and leave the real spirit of football to the rest of us!

Here's hoping

Now tha hits the nail on the head - it is all about connection to the club. All these current mob seem to achieve is a situation where long-term and loyal fans are becoming alienated. I, for one, feel that I am seen simply as a source of revenue to the club and not as a member of something we all should be sharing. They might achieve more by lowering further som of the prices so that true fans who are struggling financially can still turn up to games. This would build better and more meaningful long-term relationships and create a better atmosphere in the ground. It all seems so crass and shallow right now - and I am NOT talking about the playing side.

[BrizzleRed]

I wasn't there for the glory days due to not being yet born but have on good authority that Alan Dicks was under every bit as much scrutiny as SOD is from fractions of our fan base. Hence the classic line 'Dicks Out!'. Don't know the mood after 4 games of his first full season, admittedly. Certainly remember both John Ward and Gary Johnson being severely scrutinised, early on.

So I guess my question back is: 'are we really less patient and understanding nowadays?'

Why should anyone who's followed this club for any period of time not be questioning if things will ever improve?

I am, for the record, quietly confident long term that SOD will stabilise the club, btw.

Yes AD was certainly under pressure, because things were bad for quite a long time before the upturn came, but nothing resembling what managers get these days.

As for questioning whether things will improve, I should think we all do at some time privately. Maybe it's just the symptom of the instant access to the net, but rather than just thinking it, people are too ready to put this out on a public forum. Given the want it now mentality of many these days, this attitude just breeds unrest and division on here.

Guess this is all part and parcel of a forum, but I just hope players and managers steer well clear of them!

[BrizzleRed]

Now tha hits the nail on the head - it is all about connection to the club. All these current mob seem to achieve is a situation where long-term and loyal fans are becoming alienated. I, for one, feel that I am seen simply as a source of revenue to the club and not as a member of something we all should be sharing. They might achieve more by lowering further som of the prices so that true fans who are struggling financially can still turn up to games. This would build better and more meaningful long-term relationships and create a better atmosphere in the ground. It all seems so crass and shallow right now - and I am NOT talking about the playing side.

I fear this may well be exactly the same at any other club around the country though, which is probably why attendances are dropping everywhere, including the Prem.

From a City point of view, I know many people who used to watch the team regularly, but have got so disillusioned that they haven't been near the ground in years. That's why I reckon if the club could get AV or AG built and get their house in order regarding treating the fans like fans again, there is a massive potential fanbase to help fill the new ground, wherever that may be. I think for every one of us who are still here, there are many more who have voted with their feet years ago.

It'll need a massive change round to make things happen though, but sadly it looks like the club are actually going backwards, when they should be going forward.

[Welcome To The Jungle]

AMEN TO THAT BROTHER!!!

It's getting impossible to have the passion for modern football, especially for an oldie like me, who has experienced the feeling of truly connecting with the club and players and feeling as one with them. I reckon this is also a big contributer to the general lack of atmosphere at games these days

It's interesting you already see this problem at your younger age, as it seems that many of your generation just don't understand what many of us older ones are banging on about.

There's times I feel like saying sod it, and watch some non league team instead, but I've been born into City and there can never be another club for me. Like you, I'd love to see football get back to its real roots and values and let the Prem glory boys go and play in some European or World league and leave the real spirit of football to the rest of us!

Here's hoping

I had a friend (he's in his mid 20's now) but when he was my age he went to watch Almundsbury Town (excuse the spelling). He loved it. I will never turn my back on bcfc but its tempting at times.