Waltzing Through The Midfield

[Drew Peacock]

Wagstaff Reid Pack Bryan

Should be our midfield 4 every week.

 

Didn't think Bryan contributed as much as usual yesterday

[Red-Robbo]

If you need to wait a year Robbo then fine. Some people can see what is going to happen.

Funny that SOD gets two seasons "transition" whereas his successor is expected to turn things around in one game.

Anyway Sean's true believers should have been delighted yesterday as the team lined up in exactly the same way as it did under their messiah - with the same results.

[Jordan Tansley]

Funny that SOD gets two seasons "transition" whereas his successor is expected to turn things around in one game.

Anyway Sean's true believers should have been delighted yesterday as the team lined up in exactly the same way as it did under their messiah - with the same results.

Did it? Reid would have played and so would have Pack. That would have made a shit load of difference to that first half.

[cider_dog]

Funny that SOD gets two seasons "transition" whereas his successor is expected to turn things around in one game.

Anyway Sean's true believers should have been delighted yesterday as the team lined up in exactly the same way as it did under their messiah - with the same results.

2 Seasons?

 

In reality he had the first 4 month's of this season (using the OTIB logic that if a manager is appointed mid-season that doesn't count).

 

SC got a 3 and a half year contract, just think about that - 3 whole seasons under a man who didn't even feel the need to watch a DVD of the team he was tasked with keeping in the division.

 

Who wouldn't be optimistic about that?

 

[Red-Robbo]

Did it? Reid would have played and so would have Pack. That would have made a shit load of difference to that first half.

Doubt it Jord. With effectively one up front, the ball would've been in our half just the same. SOD often didn't start Bob, so no difference there although Pack would prob started over Gillet. Not sure how that would've made us more dangerous.

[!james]

Reid has also been the only bright spark in there this year, but seems as though 'Cotts' doesn't fancy him either. Oh joy.

Apologies if I've missed this but where have you taken that from? All I've read is Cotterill saying how much he rates him

[Red-Robbo]

2 Seasons?

In reality he had the first 4 month's of this season (using the OTIB logic that if a manager is appointed mid-season that doesn't count).

SC got a 3 and a half year contract, just think about that - 3 whole seasons under a man who didn't even feel the need to watch a DVD of the team he was tasked with keeping in the division.

Who wouldn't be optimistic about that?

We'd have been in the Conference South after 3 and a half year of SOD. Whether SC can rescue us from the poison chalice he's inherited remains to be seen. I'm certainly not judging him on one game against a top 6 side. He'll make mistakes of course as he gets to know the players and their limitations.

If we do go down however it won't be without a fight. Last season we might as well havd hoisted a white flag and awarded our late season opponents walkovers.

[Jordan Tansley]

We'd have been in the Conference South after 3 and a half year of SOD. Whether SC can rescue us from the poison chalice he's inherited remains to be seen. I'm certainly not judging him on one game against a top 6 side. He'll make mistakes of course as he gets to know the players and their limitations.

If we do go down however it won't be without a fight. Last season we might as well havd hoisted a white flag and awarded our late season opponents walkovers.

 

Give it a rest now eh Robbo. SOD is gone and it's getting pretty tiresome reading everyone going on about him now.

Cotterill is the new man and it's his decision we should now be talking about.

 

Yesterday was the least fight I've seen from a City side in at least a year (Wolves at home). I don't know why you assume that SC will get them battling? I saw a group of players who just weren't motivated yesterday and it took youthful exuberance to change the game completely. 

First assessment: Much to improve.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

Give it a rest now eh Robbo. SOD is gone and it's getting pretty tiresome reading everyone going on about him now.

Cotterill is the new man and it's his decision we should now be talking about.

 

Yesterday was the least fight I've seen from a City side in at least a year (Wolves at home). I don't know why you assume that SC will get them battling? I saw a group of players who just weren't motivated yesterday and it took youthful exuberance to change the game completely. 

First assessment: Much to improve.

 

it's a two way street mate, SC being taken apart on here after 90 minutes of league football and some of the drivel like 'the players are missing SOD', it's a football team not a posh girls finishing school, if any player is unhappy then they should man up and ask for a move and then sit back and wait for all of the offers for their services.

 

I said on another thread and SOD alluded to it several times in his post match interviews, that they were coached all week, spoke all week about exactly how he wanted them to play and they went out and once the first whistle blew they played their own game, until he re iterated his weeks work during half time, SC alluded to it again yesterday, the players have to start taking some responsibility, especially for SOD's sacking.

 

 

 

 

[Red-Robbo]

Give it a rest now eh Robbo. SOD is gone and it's getting pretty tiresome reading everyone going on about him now.

Cotterill is the new man and it's his decision we should now be talking about.

Yesterday was the least fight I've seen from a City side in at least a year (Wolves at home). I don't know why you assume that SC will get them battling? I saw a group of players who just weren't motivated yesterday and it took youthful exuberance to change the game completely.

First assessment: Much to improve.

I thought Baldock worked hard throughout, although was obviously in the usual negated solo role again, JET showed flashes but we can't expect brilliance every match, Williams and Flint were busy, as was Moloney and once Bob came on Waggy woke up.

The only player I thought looked like he didn't want to be there was Cunningham - and it's been like that all season.

As I say, let's judge Cotterill on a run of games, not just his first league outing here.

[Jordan Tansley]

it's a two way street mate, SC being taken apart on here after 90 minutes of league football and some of the drivel like 'the players are missing SOD', it's a football team not a posh girls finishing school, if any player is unhappy then they should man up and ask for a move and then sit back and wait for all of the offers for their services.

 

I said on another thread and SOD alluded to it several times in his post match interviews, that they were coached all week, spoke all week about exactly how he wanted them to play and they went out and once the first whistle blew they played their own game, until he re iterated his weeks work during half time, SC alluded to it again yesterday, the players have to start taking some responsibility, especially for SOD's sacking.

I don't think he's being taken apart, but you have to admit that when a guys first game in charge in the league is met with that performance (Honestly Es, it was so shit first half. No movement, effort, creativity or semblance of a plan) then it's worrying. He's been touted as a motivator, a guy who will drag this side to good results... Well, on first showings he's not that man.

 

But that's first showing. He spoke excellently after the game and he absolutely must learn. He probably would have known that Wagstaff, Elliot, Flint, Cunningham and Shorey aren't good enough if he'd watched a few of our games under SOD...To make the same mistakes is crazy.

 

But blaming SOD, going on about how we were worse (We absolutely were not, that was a massive regression) etc is just boring now. Time to move on, analyse the current decisions.

 

as I said, first assessment mark is: Must do better.

[Jordan Tansley]

I thought Baldock worked hard throughout, although was obviously in the usual negated solo role again, JET showed flashes but we can't expect brilliance every match, Williams and Flint were busy, as was Moloney and once Bob came on Waggy woke up.

The only player I thought looked like he didn't want to be there was Cunningham - and it's been like that all season.

As I say, let's judge Cotterill on a run of games, not just his first league outing here.

Not judging him as a coach on one game, just concerned by the decisions he made, his substitutions and how badly they played in the minutes after his talks to them.

There was no effort, no movement, no responsibility and no passion. It took Bobby's introduction for ANYTHING positive to happen for us, Wes added to that and SC can't get away with picking a midfield like he did against Rotherham too many times.

 

The crowd made their feelings known, louder than I remember in a long time.

[Red-Robbo]

Not judging him as a coach on one game, just concerned by the decisions he made, his substitutions and how badly they played in the minutes after his talks to them.

There was no effort, no movement, no responsibility and no passion. It took Bobby's introduction for ANYTHING positive to happen for us, Wes added to that and SC can't get away with picking a midfield like he did against Rotherham too many times.

The crowd made their feelings known, louder than I remember in a long time.

Can't argue with any of that, mate. As I say, he's on a steep learning curve. I personally hope he takes from that game that Baldock alone with JET in "free role" behind him just produces too few shots on goal. If they all go in we win, but more often than not they don't and we lose.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

I don't think he's being taken apart, but you have to admit that when a guys first game in charge in the league is met with that performance (Honestly Es, it was so shit first half. No movement, effort, creativity or semblance of a plan) then it's worrying. He's been touted as a motivator, a guy who will drag this side to good results... Well, on first showings he's not that man.

 

But that's first showing. He spoke excellently after the game and he absolutely must learn. He probably would have known that Wagstaff, Elliot, Flint, Cunningham and Shorey aren't good enough if he'd watched a few of our games under SOD...To make the same mistakes is crazy.

 

But blaming SOD, going on about how we were worse (We absolutely were not, that was a massive regression) etc is just boring now. Time to move on, analyse the current decisions.

 

as I said, first assessment mark is: Must do better.

 

Can't argue with much of that Bud, however 2 small points, firstly if players are going to ignore instructions by 2 managers now, there is something seriously wrong with that dressing room, the players need to start taking responsibility and secondly I understand about watching DVD's etc. but how about everybody starts with a clean slate?, that is what usually happens, i'm not saying it is right but it seems to the normal new manager convention.

 

 

[Jordan Tansley]

Can't argue with much of that Bud, however 2 small points, firstly if players are going to ignore instructions by 2 managers now, there is something seriously wrong with that dressing room, the players need to start taking responsibility and secondly I understand about watching DVD's etc. but how about everybody starts with a clean slate?, that is what usually happens, i'm not saying it is right but it seems to the normal new manager convention.

 

There is no reason why players cannot start with a clean slate and the manager having at least some knowledge of the players before starting, surely? I don't think there is a single player in our squad who can't succeed at this level given tactics that fit into their strengths, but knowing who compliments who in the current squad should have been essential to Cotterill's preparation for the role IMO. 

On the first point, I am not putting all the blame at the managers door, but it's not as cut and dry as to blame the players solely too. Clearly, if the players aren't doing as they are told then the message being conveyed isn't convincing enough or being communicated efficiently, likewise the players who are struggling to implement plans need taking to one side and have the expectations thoroughly explained to them. 

[Jordan Tansley]

Can't argue with any of that, mate. As I say, he's on a steep learning curve. I personally hope he takes from that game that Baldock alone with JET in "free role" behind him just produces too few shots on goal. If they all go in we win, but more often than not they don't and we lose.

You're right of course and eventually it was SOD's reluctance to change his shape that cost him his job. I'd argue that the signs were there that it was heading in the right direction and if you get the midfield right behind Baldock he can be a good lone striker, but it requires constant movement in that midfield and service given to Baldock in areas he can affect the game ie. the channels behind the full backs and centre backs. That of course is not relevant to our current situation other than if Cotterill decides he is going to play that way.

Baldock cannot be the out ball for your defence though, not unless they are as good at passing as Steven Gerrard. So, you either "tippy tap" out of defence and move it into midfield (This is where the constant movement and off the ball running is so important) or you drop Baldock and allow the defence to just clear their lines.

 

I hate that, and I don't want to see it, but if it's going to happen then having Baldock up there is ******* pointless and we might as well play the likes of Harewood and Taylor.

[GrahamC]

Can't see this Pack love in, he was excellent on debut against Bradford, good in SOD's last game against Orient and mediocre in between.

I like Reid but don't think we have the players at present to play around him, January really has to see us strengthen there, teams like Shrewsbury and Rotherham look far better than us in midfield, FFS.

God knows what to do next week, the choice between Elliott, Gillett and Pack is not an inspiring one.

[italian dave]

When is Liam Kelly back??

[Red-Robbo]

When is Liam Kelly back??

ASAP please Santa!!!!

[Chivs]

Can't see this Pack love in, he was excellent on debut against Bradford, good in SOD's last game against Orient and mediocre in between.

I like Reid but don't think we have the players at present to play around him, January really has to see us strengthen there, teams like Shrewsbury and Rotherham look far better than us in midfield, FFS.

God knows what to do next week, the choice between Elliott, Gillett and Pack is not an inspiring one.

Harry seems to have a "Pack love-in" periodically.  I pointed out to him last time that his analysis of Pack is just plain wrong. Our midfield, including Pack, has allowed the opposition to waltz through us persistently.  Pack has the added downside of regularly giving away stupid freekicks on the edge of our box.

 

As I said last time, I don't think it's entirely fair to blame Pack for the midfield "disappearing act" (always around 60 minutes).  Personally, I'd ship Elliot out as fast as possible.  He was never a "bright footballer".  Now that he's lost his legs he's not even an effective footballer.

 

I like the idea of Reid and Pack although that leaves a very young combination in a key area.

[Red-Robbo]

You're right of course and eventually it was SOD's reluctance to change his shape that cost him his job. I'd argue that the signs were there that it was heading in the right direction and if you get the midfield right behind Baldock he can be a good lone striker, but it requires constant movement in that midfield and service given to Baldock in areas he can affect the game ie. the channels behind the full backs and centre backs. That of course is not relevant to our current situation other than if Cotterill decides he is going to play that way.

Baldock cannot be the out ball for your defence though, not unless they are as good at passing as Steven Gerrard. So, you either "tippy tap" out of defence and move it into midfield (This is where the constant movement and off the ball running is so important) or you drop Baldock and allow the defence to just clear their lines.

I hate that, and I don't want to see it, but if it's going to happen then having Baldock up there is ******* pointless and we might as well play the likes of Harewood and Taylor.

Reid's pace and aggression was what brought the ball forward yesterday. I'm sure the effect his introduction had on the game would not have been missed by Cotterill.

Ultimately, we need better central defenders though. As you say, off-ball movement is key, yet we still look like Subuteo players at times.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

To be fair Reid was coming back from injury, what was originally described as a hamstring strain I believe, imagine the furore had SC played him from the start and he had limped off after 10 minutes with a strain having become a full blown tear.

[Red-Robbo]

To be fair Reid was coming back from injury, what was originally described as a hamstring strain I believe, imagine the furore had SC played him from the start and he had limped off after 10 minutes with a strain having become a full blown tear.

Absolutely. I think he probably got more on-pitch minutes under Steve then he would under Sean too.

I expect him to start next match.

[Harry]

Harry seems to have a "Pack love-in" periodically.  I pointed out to him last time that his analysis of Pack is just plain wrong. Our midfield, including Pack, has allowed the opposition to waltz through us persistently.  Pack has the added downside of regularly giving away stupid freekicks on the edge of our box.

 

As I said last time, I don't think it's entirely fair to blame Pack for the midfield "disappearing act" (always around 60 minutes).  Personally, I'd ship Elliot out as fast as possible.  He was never a "bright footballer".  Now that he's lost his legs he's not even an effective footballer.

 

I like the idea of Reid and Pack although that leaves a very young combination in a key area.

I didn't bother replying to you last time as you were plain wrong, but I think I will bother this time.

 

Have a look at EVERY goal we've conceded this season.  They mainly stem from corners, throw-ins and crosses.  The ones which have come through the midfield are these :

 

1) MK Dons away.  Their midfield play a couple of passes and get beyond our CM's.  Our CM's are Elliot & Reid.

2) Brentford home.  Reid gets tackled and their player strikes at goal from distance - deflection takes it in.

3) Oldham home.  A combination of Bryan, Gillett & Elliot are turned inside out by a couple of passes resulting in a shot from outside the box and a goal.

4) Rotherham home.  Our CM's are both caught too high up field at the same time, leaving an acre or two for their players to run into.  Our CM's were Elliot & Gillett.

 

You seem to claim that our midfield has been walked through "persistently", yet these are the only 4 goals against that have derived from this area.  No coincidence that in 2 of these instances, Pack isn't playing.  In fact, it seems that when we get a combo of Elliott & Gillett, it seems to go awry!

 

As I've noted earlier in this thread, there is no "Pack Love-In" from me - I accept that he's had some poor games, that he's sometimes caught on the ball and that he has zero pace, however, it simply can't be denied that he has played his position well defensively and no-one has ran past, through or round him to score.