Pleat Slams 'processes' And Transition' Managerial Spiel

[Nogbad the Bad]

Did anyone hear David Pleat's comments after the Spurs/Liverpool match?

 

I only heard the last bit but he rounded on managers who try to fool the fans and the media by talking about 'processes' and 'transition' to cover up their deficiencies. Something along those lines, plus 'football is a simple game'.

 

He went on to bemoan the way individuality is coached out of youngsters who are told to move the ball on quickly, and the art of running at the opposition, and dribbling, which can be exciting and effective, are being lost.

 

I'm sure he didn't have SO'D or BCFC specifically in mind at all,  this 'processes' and 'transition' talk seems to be more widespread amongst managers than I'd thought, but it obviously seemed to fit City very well, and I found myself nodding along in agreement.

 

Which begs the question, was SO'D actually talking a load of blathering prevaricating nonsense about 'processes', 'transition' etc. because he wasn't actually a very good manager, and are fans really interested in watching players brought up, and forced to play tippy tappy pass and move football, where individuality has been coached out of them, or is frowned upon, anyway?

[Jordan Tansley]

David Pleat, that knowledgeable fellow who is clearly in touch with the modern game....

No idea why I just bumped this drivel.

[Fiale]

Slow news day I assume.

[The Right Honourable Les Q]

Yes Nog, I heard this. Had the radio on in the background and those same couple of words caught my ear. But, I did hear Pleat only a couple of weeks ago, but, again, what he was saying at one point that evening caught my attention and stayed with me because it was almost word-for-word SODspeak. Think he even talked about decision-making. I do think people in football can change with the wind, say what suits at the time. They often contradict themselves. We all do. But never me (!)

I do think SOD used the transition thing and referred to the problems of the past three or four years to excuse/ deflect blame for his faltering, underachieving team. 2 wins in 18. Football coaches have to overcome problems and challenges, that is a big part of why they are paid so handsomely. It's like, "bring me solutions, don't bring me problems." We hired him to overcome problems and challenges, not to be sunk by them.

Having said that, Pleat's words about moving the ball on quickly: isn't this at odds with Cotterill's thoughts on this? I wouldn't be surprised to hear Pleat commentating soon and questioning someone trying to do too much, not passing.

[WTFiGO!?!]

Think even Mourinho mentioned the 't' word last night on MOTD.

Let's face it, there's a lot of cryptic, cliched and agenda driven nonsense chatted in football. It's the greatest soap opera on earth, after all.

With everything microscopically scrutinised these days, the nuance of the nonsense is as manipulative as it's ever been.

Roberto Martinez strikes me as one of the most refreshingly substantial in his content.

Here endeth my brains latest free-wheelin' ramble into the abyss.

Don't kid yourselves, anyone who says they're not a bullshitter is a bullshitter!

[Rich_s]

I don't really see why buzzword phrases used in football management should be any different that other walks of management. I remember "win win situation", "low hanging fruit", "thinking outside the box", "going forward" and my particular current annoyance is "reach out".

I was enjoying Cotterill's post match interview yesterday but rolled my eyes when he said,"it's a game of two halves".

[The Right Honourable Les Q]

I don't really see why buzzword phrases used

I was enjoying Cotterill's post match interview yesterday but rolled my eyes when he said,"it's a game of two halves".

Rich, how can you argue with that? That is "telling it like it is" par excellence. That is top, top drawer. I like it. I cannot fault it. Who can argue with that statement? There is hope for us yet....

[Eco]

I don't really see why buzzword phrases used in football management should be any different that other walks of management. I remember "win win situation", "low hanging fruit", "thinking outside the box", "going forward" and my particular current annoyance is "reach out".

I was enjoying Cotterill's post match interview yesterday but rolled my eyes when he said,"it's a game of two halves".

At least he hasn't mentioned 'controlling the controllables' yet. (or is it controlling the uncontrollables, can't remember)

[Aizoon]

Well looking at the Prem and the way they sack managers there is no time for transition or whatever you call it, the financial loss that comes with relegation is the motivating factor.

Lower leagues would therefore be able to 'afford' more time to the managers to develop the squad, wouldn't they?

You'd have thought so, wouldn't you?

[WTFiGO!?!]

So are we taking any positives from this thread? Are we going to have to take a long hard look in the mirror, both individually and collectively, dust ourselves down and go again? We need to start showing greater bouncebackability, there's no two ways about that. To be fair.

[BUTOR]

Did anyone hear David Pleat's comments after the Spurs/Liverpool match?

 

I only heard the last bit but he rounded on managers who try to fool the fans and the media by talking about 'processes' and 'transition' to cover up their deficiencies. Something along those lines, plus 'football is a simple game'.

 

He went on to bemoan the way individuality is coached out of youngsters who are told to move the ball on quickly, and the art of running at the opposition, and dribbling, which can be exciting and effective, are being lost.

 

I'm sure he didn't have SO'D or BCFC specifically in mind at all,  this 'processes' and 'transition' talk seems to be more widespread amongst managers than I'd thought, but it obviously seemed to fit City very well, and I found myself nodding along in agreement.

 

Which begs the question, was SO'D actually talking a load of blathering prevaricating nonsense about 'processes', 'transition' etc. because he wasn't actually a very good manager, and are fans really interested in watching players brought up, and forced to play tippy tappy pass and move football, where individuality has been coached out of them, or is frowned upon, anyway?

 

Oh dear.

 

There is a reason why Spain are so successful. It is because every coach has the same idea of the right way to play football. A high tempo, slick, passing game. You can't coach individuality out of players, when they're on the ball it is there choice what they do with it, as So'd said, coaches can teach decision making, not technique. It is simply a style of play, and you can't say it doesn't win the Spanish trophies. 

 

As for the transition topic, in City's case the last few years have been nothing short of shocking, on and off the pitch. Something needed to change, ok So'd couldn't deliver it as quickly as the board anticipated but it wasn't bullshit. Rapid changes were happening behind the scenes and unfortunately O'Driscoll couldn't transfer that onto the pitch as well. The club needs to stick to its long term plan otherwise Bristol City will continue its downward spiral it is stuck on, and eventually hit rock bottom.  

[Kid in the Riot]

SOD has barely been out of management since 2000, which suggests he's more than a good bullshitter.

 

SC of course had a long 3 year period out of management after Burnley, his appointments at Pompey and Forest were both quite out of the blue and no-one has wanted him as manager since he left Forest in summer 2012. Oh, with the exception of one League Two club.

[chinapig]

I understood Pleat was saying you did not have the luxury of transitions at big clubs, you are expected to carry on winning, which was fair comment I thought. If you've spent a fortune on players, especially if added to an already strong squad, and you are supposed to be a good manager, I see no reason why you should be given a free pass.

 

Talking about transition at a lower level seems more reasonable, though it is just another way of saying "wait until I have my own team", which we got from Millen and McInnes. In both cases, and with SOD, it transpired that their own team was no better than the last guy's.

 

I also fail to see how transition excuses bad signings, failing tactics, players giving away stupid goals or missing sitters and so on.

[GrahamC]

SOD has barely been out of management since 2000, which suggests he's more than a good bullshitter. SC of course had a long 3 year period out of management after Burnley, his appointments at Pompey and Forest were both quite out of the blue and no-one has wanted him as manager since he left Forest in summer 2012. Oh, with the exception of one League Two club.

Not exactly true.

He was in charge of Notts County for 18 games, (winning 14 and drawing 3) and left them in May 2010, taking over Pompey a few weeks later. Why that appointment is deemed "out of the blue" after that record I have no idea.

Similarly he moved to Forest straight from Pompey where it was acknowledged he did a decent job whilst they were in administration (compare the record of everyone there since, he kept them in The Championship, they are now bottom six of the football league).

He was out of management for 3 years between Burnley and Notts, though.

He also turned down a job from a club above us in our division to take over in BS3...

[Kid in the Riot]

Not exactly true.

He was in charge of Notts County for 18 games, (winning 14 and drawing 3) and left them in May 2010, taking over Pompey a few weeks later. Why that appointment is deemed "out of the blue" after that record I have no idea.

Similarly he moved to Forest straight from Pompey where it was acknowledged he did a decent job whilst they were in administration (compare the record of everyone there since, he kept them in The Championship, they are now bottom six of the football league).

He was out of management for 3 years between Burnley and Notts, though.

He also turned down a job from a club above us in our division to take over in BS3...

 

That last line is not what I've heard Graham. Interest maybe, but not a firm offer - the only firm offer was from an unfashionable L2 club. In any case the chance to stay in the westcountry and get a well paid 3.5 year deal would've been his preference over a mid table, smaller L1 club.

 

His record at County was unquestionably very good however I remember being sat in a bar in Montenegro with some Pompey when England played there a few years back and none of them were happy at all that he'd been appointed. Everyone was quite surprised that SC could've been favourite for such a job. It was an even bigger surprise when Forest "headhunted" him as his record at Pompey wasn't great at all. As I said in another thread I know a coach down there who said at the weekend no-one at the club had a good word to say about SC's time there.

 

He kept Forest up but again you won't hear anyone there singing his praises. Gotta wonder why.

 

Let's hope he can keep us up

[The Right Honourable Les Q]

That last line is not what I've heard Graham. Interest maybe, but not a firm offer - the only firm offer was from an unfashionable L2 club. In any case the chance to stay in the westcountry and get a well paid 3.5 year deal would've been his preference over a mid table, smaller L1 club.

 

His record at County was unquestionably very good however I remember being sat in a bar in Montenegro with some Pompey when England played there a few years back and none of them were happy at all that he'd been appointed. Everyone was quite surprised that SC could've been favourite for such a job. It was an even bigger surprise when Forest "headhunted" him as his record at Pompey wasn't great at all. As I said in another thread I know a coach down there who said at the weekend no-one at the club had a good word to say about SC's time there.

 

He kept Forest up but again you won't hear anyone there singing his praises. Gotta wonder why.

 

Let's hope he can keep us up

The WC accent, with all the playground connotations that has for people around the country, will play a part in how he is perceived by those outside the WC. Are there many managers with a strong Brummie accent? Or even a Scouse accent? And speaking of perceptions and infantile stereotypes about "others" or "outsiders," there aren't many black managers, are there? Or maybe that is because they don't like taking a team up North on a wet Wednesday in Wakefield.....

[Nogbad the Bad]

That last line is not what I've heard Graham. Interest maybe, but not a firm offer - the only firm offer was from an unfashionable L2 club. In any case the chance to stay in the westcountry and get a well paid 3.5 year deal would've been his preference over a mid table, smaller L1 club.

 

His record at County was unquestionably very good however I remember being sat in a bar in Montenegro with some Pompey when England played there a few years back and none of them were happy at all that he'd been appointed. Everyone was quite surprised that SC could've been favourite for such a job. It was an even bigger surprise when Forest "headhunted" him as his record at Pompey wasn't great at all. As I said in another thread I know a coach down there who said at the weekend no-one at the club had a good word to say about SC's time there.

 

He kept Forest up but again you won't hear anyone there singing his praises. Gotta wonder why.

 

Let's hope he can keep us up

 

Maybe the underperforming comfy clubs of players - and coaches, because they're often intertwined -at these failing clubs didn't like somebody who stirred things up, told them a few home truths, shipped out a few popular but insignificant regulars and generally did what was needed to improve results, whether it made him popular or not.

 

In other words, exactly what we need right now.

[Rich i e]

[Kid in the Riot]

Maybe the underperforming comfy clubs of players - and coaches, because they're often intertwined -at these failing clubs didn't like somebody who stirred things up, told them a few home truths, shipped out a few popular but insignificant regulars and generally did what was needed to improve results, whether it made him popular or not.

 

Unfortunately we've got Steve Cotterill, not Gary Johnson.

[sodburyred]

Well looking at the Prem and the way they sack managers there is no time for transition or whatever you call it, the financial loss that comes with relegation is the motivating factor. 

 

Lower leagues would therefore be able to 'afford' more time to the managers to develop the squad, wouldn't they?

 

In theory. But the manager would still have to be competative in the league. At the end of the day it is a results business. Managers who bang on about transition are just on the whole realing out excuses. Our former manager as an example took over last season with there still a glimmer of hope of staying up. IMO he conceded relagation to start planning the transition in league one, transfer business was done fairly early in the summer, so had obviously started planning before the end of last season. The season started with the players alot more comfortable in possesion, A few good performances that mistakes and luck stopped them getting some wins. Transition seemed in full flow, some tweeks and we had a solid league 1 team. However what followed was a steady decline in performances and results culminating in some absolutely terrible displays. A lucky win against Crawley and good halfs against Carlisle and Orient papered over the cracks yet still the transition excuse was used. This now IMO was not transition this was a mangager who had ran out of ideas. On the playing side what was being transitioned? It was all on the whole his players,They'd been together for 5 months. Performances should have been improving and results like wise. False dawns followed by absolute dross is not transition.

[Oxford Red]

Ah David Pleat. Fountain of knowledge.

Let's kick his comments to the curb.

[ashton_fan]

I understood Pleat was saying you did not have the luxury of transitions at big clubs, you are expected to carry on winning, which was fair comment I thought. If you've spent a fortune on players, especially if added to an already strong squad, and you are supposed to be a good manager, I see no reason why you should be given a free pass.

 

Talking about transition at a lower level seems more reasonable, though it is just another way of saying "wait until I have my own team", which we got from Millen and McInnes. In both cases, and with SOD, it transpired that their own team was no better than the last guy's.

 

I also fail to see how transition excuses bad signings, failing tactics, players giving away stupid goals or missing sitters and so on.

 

None of the previous three managers ever got 'their own team' as they weren't in charge for long enough. Millen only had two transfer windows and his hands were tied during those due to the high spending of previous managers and the start of 'austerity' following Steve Lansdown's departure from the Board. McInnes had two transfer windows, SOD only had one! SOD said given two more (ie by the start of next season) he would have his team in place. Cotterell is saying he needs four windows, so his team won't be in place until 2015/16 season. That means we've gone back a year, we should have given SOD longer!

[BCFC_Dan]

The biggest irony here is that Liverpool are managed by a man who will talk at great length about processes and who needed most of last season to transition his team from its previous incarnation. Let the man complete the job and the end result will be better, as Spurs now will not find out.

[Lack of Action Man]

I think the concept of transition itself may have some pertinence, particularly when looking at the Brendan Rogers example. However, for successful transition to occur, things have to work both ways: the man has to be right for the club and the club right for the man. For example, whilst Rodgers has set up a solid platform at Swansea for Laudrup to work with and has shown that at Liverpool transition can be achieved gradually if the club and fans buy into his vision and he understands what they want, it didn't work out for him at Reading because that mutual understanding just wasn't present.

SOD failed here and AVB failed at spurs because neither had the understanding of what the board and fans were expecting and likewise the fans didn't understand or respect the signs of transition on show.

Football simply won't allow the time to managers of old because the financial gains/losses based on league and cup successes/ failures have become so exaggerated.ultimately this all boils down to clubs racking up massive debts due to ridiculous player wages and over spending.

For a modern manager to succeed with the model of a traditional project, there has to be a definable change in the methodology and culture of football played, combined with positive results and ESSENTIALLY a mutual respect between manager, board and club.

[Tom Fleuriot]

Talking about transition at a lower level seems more reasonable, though it is just another way of saying "wait until I have my own team", which we got from Millen and McInnes. In both cases, and with SOD, it transpired that their own team was no better than the last guy's.

 

I also fail to see how transition excuses bad signings, failing tactics, players giving away stupid goals or missing sitters and so on.

Has any City manager truly had their own team since Johnson?  In other words a team where all the mistakes were theirs?  I'd say the biggest opportunities were for Coppell and maybe McInnes.  O'Driscoll would have been able to this summer had we stayed up, but because of the revenue drop he still had 70-80% of his budget unavailable to play with (he would have been sorted after a couple of windows).  But it seems like for at least five years there have constantly been players at the club who are swallowing up the wage bill and limiting our ability to really sign new players.

 

Cotterill may be able to get there if (1) he doesn't have an issue with any of O'Driscoll's signings (or can shift them on, which may be possible), and (2) he's still here at the end of September.

[Nogbad the Bad]

The biggest irony here is that Liverpool are managed by a man who will talk at great length about processes and who needed most of last season to transition his team from its previous incarnation. Let the man complete the job and the end result will be better, as Spurs now will not find out.

 

In Spurs case maybe, but the end result in SO'D's case seemed ever more likely to be a second releagation. You can't feel compelled to let a man 'complete the job' under those circumstances, it could be seen as a dereliction of duty not to take action.

[old parkender]

The biggest irony here is that Liverpool are managed by a man who will talk at great length about processes and who needed most of last season to transition his team from its previous incarnation. Let the man complete the job and the end result will be better, as Spurs now will not find out.

Do you think Rodgers would still be manager if he had 'transitioned' Liverpool to the bottom of the championship O'Driscoll style?

[Nogbad the Bad]

Unfortunately we've got Steve Cotterill, not Gary Johnson.

 

I'd say there are similarities between the two, and some of the qualities they share -as mentioned above -  are likely be beneficial in the present circumstances..

[BCFC_Dan]

Do you think Rodgers would still be manager if he had 'transitioned' Liverpool to the bottom of the championship O'Driscoll style?

 

He did take them to the relegation zone for a while.

 

He was also well on his way to taking Reading into League One. It doesn't always work out. The club and manager have to be a good fit. Sometimes it's a case of 'right manager wrong time'.

 

The point here is that Rodgers is a man who likes his football complicated and, given time, has made a success of it. Some clubs seem better suited to that than others.

[Aizoon]

He did take them to the relegation zone for a while.

 

He was also well on his way to taking Reading into League One. It doesn't always work out. The club and manager have to be a good fit. Sometimes it's a case of 'right manager wrong time'.

 

The point here is that Rodgers is a man who likes his football complicated and, given time, has made a success of it. Some clubs seem better suited to that than others.

 

That's right. Remember the graffito:

 

Above us only sky

 

BELOW US ONLY QPR AND READING