Kid in the Riot Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Can't believe what I'm seeing on the news this evening after spending a week in the summer of 2012 at the Euros in Independence Square, Kiev. Had such an enjoyable time out there and the locals were generally very welcoming - the Ukrainians more so than the Russians! With the party atmosphere it was hard to pick up on the political issues rumbling beneath. A couple of events did give us a clue though. Firstly, protesters in the main square campaigning for Yulia Tymoshenko. Remember signing their petition and still got my sticker. Also, an incident on a bus when I forgot to validate my ticket! I got busted by an inspector doing spot checks and was being shouted at to pay a fine whilst I pleaded ignorance I suppose. Big language issue obviously but eventually local people on the bus inlcuding one animated elderly women forced the inspector to back down and effectively pushed them off the bus at the next stop. It felt like the people wanted to show Kiev in a positive light for visitors and not be left with a bad impression. It's very sad watching the events in Kiev today - marksmen taking pot shots at peaceful protesters. I hope the people get what they want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrs Court Red Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Peaceful protesters.....not entirely. The scenes are shocking though. The EU needs to shoulder a big portion of blame here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Mosquito Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Can't believe what I'm seeing on the news this evening after spending a week in the summer of 2012 at the Euros in Independence Square, Kiev. Had such an enjoyable time out there and the locals were generally very welcoming - the Ukrainians more so than the Russians! With the party atmosphere it was hard to pick up on the political issues rumbling beneath. A couple of events did give us a clue though. Firstly, protesters in the main square campaigning for Yulia Tymoshenko. Remember signing their petition and still got my sticker. Also, an incident on a bus when I forgot to validate my ticket! I got busted by an inspector doing spot checks and was being shouted at to pay a fine whilst I pleaded ignorance I suppose. Big language issue obviously but eventually local people on the bus inlcuding one animated elderly women forced the inspector to back down and effectively pushed them off the bus at the next stop. It felt like the people wanted to show Kiev in a positive light for visitors and not be left with a bad impression. It's very sad watching the events in Kiev today - marksmen taking pot shots at peaceful protesters. I hope the people get what they want. Sad news but the same happened in Bristol in 1831 when the Dragoons were eventually sent in against our zidered up Bristolian ancestors. The Bristolian mob looted and burnt unpopular citizens' houses and released prisoners from the prisons. The Dragoons attacked the crowd and hundreds were killed and severely wounded..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Mosquito Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Peaceful protesters.....not entirely. The scenes are shocking though. The EU needs to shoulder a big portion of blame here. The unelected EU despots such as Lady Catherine Ashton certainly seem to be poking their noses in and stoking the flames. I saw Lady Catherine Ashton on a BBC propaganda news broadcast earlier and she seemed to be being portrayed as some kind of heroine by the BBC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cambridge Batch Red Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Can't quite understand what's going on - on the face of it it seems the EU is very popular but I think this is more of an anti-Russian thing. People killing each other over political ideas seems so far removed from our own apathy and low turnouts in elections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Mosquito Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Can't quite understand what's going on - on the face of it it seems the EU is very popular but I think this is more of an anti-Russian thing. People killing each other over political ideas seems so far removed from our own apathy and low turnouts in elections. The EU is Hitler's dream come true - a German dominated EU Reich stretching from Western Ireland to the Urals. Getting the Ukraine under the EU yoke is yet another step towards the Urals. The Labour Party pseudo-socialist Lady Catherine Ashton will soon be able to change her title from 'Lady' to 'EU Empress'. Is she Hitler's daughter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
And Its Smith Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 The EU is Hitler's dream come true - a German dominated EU Reich stretching from Western Ireland to the Urals. Getting the Ukraine under the EU yoke is yet another step towards the Urals. The Labour Party pseudo-socialist Lady Catherine Ashton will soon be able to change her title from 'Lady' to 'EU Empress'. Is she Hitler's daughter? And there was me thinking that Hitler wanted all the Jews dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Hitler Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 I detect the meddling hand of the US in these protests and their rush to get involved. There was an expert on Radio 5 talking about the situation and his opinion was that there is no quick solution, the underlying cause is severe disenchantment of the younger (sub 30) population with the main political parties who continue to see themselves as part of the Russian bloc rather than an independent country in Europe. So the US stirs the pot. Sounds like LibLabCon in this country, a professional political class working entirely for their own interests. Duck ponds and heated stables at the taxpayers expense for those in the cosy club. And can I remind Kid in the Riot that there is an etiquette to be observed on this board, if you are going to mention Yulia Tymoshenko then paste a sodding picture! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid in the Riot Posted February 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 Peaceful protesters.....not entirely. The scenes are shocking though. The EU needs to shoulder a big portion of blame here. True, but then once the government passed legislation allowing forces to beat and shoot at protesters it was never going to be pretty. I detect the meddling hand of the US in these protests and their rush to get involved. There was an expert on Radio 5 talking about the situation and his opinion was that there is no quick solution, the underlying cause is severe disenchantment of the younger (sub 30) population with the main political parties who continue to see themselves as part of the Russian bloc rather than an independent country in Europe. So the US stirs the pot. Sounds like LibLabCon in this country, a professional political class working entirely for their own interests. Duck ponds and heated stables at the taxpayers expense for those in the cosy club. And can I remind Kid in the Riot that there is an etiquette to be observed on this board, if you are going to mention Yulia Tymoshenko then paste a sodding picture! Yep, she is a beauty! The US may be meddling, who knows what's going on behind the scenes. One thing is for sure though - Russia are desperate to cling onto Ukraine and are will use whatever means necessary to protect their interest in the country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northamptonshire Red Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 My understanding of this is Ukraine has become a 'battleground' of sorts between the West and Russia. The current regime are under Putin's thumb, and regardless of your views on the EU, these people should be allowed to decide their own future. The only way I see this going is the country being divided in two, as I believe many in the East are of Russian origin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calculus Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 My understanding of this is Ukraine has become a 'battleground' of sorts between the West and Russia. The current regime are under Putin's thumb, and regardless of your views on the EU, these people should be allowed to decide their own future. The only way I see this going is the country being divided in two, as I believe many in the East are of Russian origin. This is very true and unfortunately there is no obvious Ukrainian solution - from what I can see opinion across the country is fairly evenly dived. Ukrainians in the east tend to support Russia, in the west they lean towards the EU. Older Ukrainians look to Russia, younger citizens the EU. I have been to Ukraine a couple of times, once on business in Lviv, once on holiday around Balaclava/Sebastapol. It was the case in the USSR days that the southern Soviet fleet was based in Balaclava, then a closed city, which gave it it's only access to the Black Sea and therefore the Med. When the USSR split, the Russian navy was granted rights to use Balaclava but the rights were due to expire. Predictably the Russians wanted to extend the deal but there were a lot of Ukrainians didn't want to. In the end they did extend the deal, and I (and most Ukrainians I know) have no doubt that if they hadn't that Russians would have forced it some how, probably through economic sanctions, stopping gas supplies or even some sort of military intervention. Ideally, longer term it is essential that the West and Putin's Russia reach some better sort of accommodation - Ukraine is only one of a number of contentious points, Syria being only another example. Personally think that we're unlikely to get there in the near future and can only see bloodshed, civil war and potential partition for Ukraine. Can't/won't believe the West will decide to get too involved - it could be the start of a major war if they do. The EU should back off IMO, this is beyond mere politics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Mosquito Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 And can I remind Kid in the Riot that there is an etiquette to be observed on this board, if you are going to mention Yulia Tymoshenko then paste a sodding picture! WOW, I'd like to take her to bed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Mosquito Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 And there was me thinking that Hitler wanted all the Jews dead. Herr Adolf Hitler wanted everyone dead. German Nazism was a death cult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazred Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 She must be one of the best looking premiers ever! Shame she already has a pearl necklace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Hitler Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 She must be one of the best looking premiers ever! Shame she already has a pearl necklace. Ahem: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazred Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 Ahem: No idea how she got her pearl necklace! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marshy Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 WOW, I'd like to take her to bed. The pillow talk would be interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cambridge Batch Red Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 I detect the meddling hand of the US in these protests and their rush to get involved. There was an expert on Radio 5 talking about the situation and his opinion was that there is no quick solution, the underlying cause is severe disenchantment of the younger (sub 30) population with the main political parties who continue to see themselves as part of the Russian bloc rather than an independent country in Europe. So the US stirs the pot. Sounds like LibLabCon in this country, a professional political class working entirely for their own interests. Duck ponds and heated stables at the taxpayers expense for those in the cosy club. And can I remind Kid in the Riot that there is an etiquette to be observed on this board, if you are going to mention Yulia Tymoshenko then paste a sodding picture! I would like to welcome her into my free trade zone . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid in the Riot Posted February 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2014 She's been released! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted February 22, 2014 Report Share Posted February 22, 2014 Peaceful protesters.....not entirely. The scenes are shocking though. The EU needs to shoulder a big portion of blame here. Why? For signing a trade deal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiale Posted February 22, 2014 Report Share Posted February 22, 2014 Why? For signing a trade deal? They didn't sign did they, just an offer. I think the thing that the EU should be blamed for is that both elected and unelected EU officials have turned up numerous times and got on stage / mingled with opposition protesters trying to - well lets be honest over throw the government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted February 22, 2014 Report Share Posted February 22, 2014 They didn't sign did they, just an offer. I think the thing that the EU should be blamed for is that both elected and unelected EU officials have turned up numerous times and got on stage / mingled with opposition protesters trying to - well lets be honest over throw the government. I know whatsername Ashton flew there for talks with Yanukyvich (sp?) and also met opposition leaders, but do you have anything to back up your assertion that officials mingled with crowds to overthrow a government. Sounds dubious to me. What you have to remember is that this is a struggle between those who feel their Russian/non-Ukrainian identity would be taken away if the country made agreements with the EU, maybe became an associate member, potentially joined Nato - and ethnic Ukrainians, many of whom want nothing to do with a country they see as their former colonial master. When you see the split in the voting between the government and opposition it's quite clear that the ruling party attracted very little support in Kiev or the western Ukraine generally, but big votes in the eastern region, built up during the Soviet era with a large number of non-native workers and the Crimea, where the indigenous population are not Ukrainian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiale Posted February 22, 2014 Report Share Posted February 22, 2014 Wasn't it a delegation headed by the German MP Thien, met with protestors, mingled with them and encouraged them in their "plight". What does the EU have to offer Ukraine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted February 22, 2014 Report Share Posted February 22, 2014 Wasn't it a delegation headed by the German MP Thien, met with protestors, mingled with them and encouraged them in their "plight". What does the EU have to offer Ukraine. I think the idea is to encourage trade. Whether that happens is another matter. I wouldn't attract too much importance to some obscure MEP however. I take it this is proof of a big plot according to the GRU (Russia Today)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrs Court Red Posted February 22, 2014 Report Share Posted February 22, 2014 I'd feel much better if the military would play its hand, or at least indicate it has no agenda. Watching events today it really does seem like a head long rush into civil war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marshy Posted February 22, 2014 Report Share Posted February 22, 2014 Wasn't it a delegation headed by the German MP Thien, met with protestors, mingled with them and encouraged them in their "plight". What does the EU have to offer Ukraine. Stefan Fule, Commisioner for Enlargement and Neighbourhood Policy visited and said, ''I have also visited the Maidan square and talked to people there. In my talks I conveyed the deep concerns of the EU about the latest developments and underlined the need to end the cycle of violence, to fight against impunity of perpetrators of human rights violations and to continue an inclusive national dialogue to find a way out of the crisis that threatens to further destabilise the country.'' Catherine Ashton, High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, (don't they have some fancy titles?) has also ''visited'' of course. With a Commisioner for Enlargement and a High Representative for Security Policy arriving is it any wonder the Russians are concerned. My own concern is that unelected European politicians are increasingly acting in a manner befitting leaders of independent nations. They believe that if they continue to act in this way then people will come to see Europe as one country. It is all part of the plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiale Posted February 22, 2014 Report Share Posted February 22, 2014 I think the idea is to encourage trade. Whether that happens is another matter. I wouldn't attract too much importance to some obscure MEP however. I take it this is proof of a big plot according to the GRU (Russia Today)? it wasn't one obscure MEP (though if MEPs are obscure then maybe we should get rid of the bunch) - it was an EU unofficial delegation with EU unelected officials as well, and they should not have been in a crowd offering encouragement to anti government protestors... no matter how much in private they may support their cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted February 22, 2014 Report Share Posted February 22, 2014 it wasn't one obscure MEP (though if MEPs are obscure then maybe we should get rid of the bunch) - it was an EU unofficial delegation with EU unelected officials as well, and they should not have been in a crowd offering encouragement to anti government protestors... no matter how much in private they may support their cause. I agree it doesn't do anyone any favours by having foreign MEPs getting involved. However the crisis was well under way before this bint flew out there. It's certainly not in Western Europe OR Russia's interests to have a civil war on our doorsteps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrs Court Red Posted February 22, 2014 Report Share Posted February 22, 2014 It suits Russia nicely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted February 22, 2014 Report Share Posted February 22, 2014 It suits Russia nicely. Not really. You have a mass movement identifying Russia with a Communist past they want to put far behind them. This movement brought the "Orange Revolution" to Ukraine, but now it's militant. And armed. You have an ethnically Russian president (OK half-Russian, half-Belarussan) unable to control his own capital and forced to flee to the city nearest the border. Brezhnev would've sent the tanks in, but I don't think that's an option Putin can exercise. It may suit him to ramp up ultra-nationalism in his country, but if he wants it to continue to economically develop he cannot return the World to the Cold War. And, of course, the genie is out of the bottle when it comes to an opposition within Moscow itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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