Rooney Rule In England

[Aussie]

Do we need the Rooney rule here?

Apparently the clubs are institutionally racist???

I don't agree with it.

There are only 19 black and ethnic minority (BME) coaches in the 552 'top' coaching positions at professional English clubs, a report has found.

BME coaches take up 3.4% of those positions despite at least 25% of players coming from BME backgrounds.

Of the 72 football league clubs, only 2 - Chris Powell at Huddersfield and Keith Curle at Carlisle - have BME coaches/managers.

Findings of the study, carried out by the Sports Person's Think Tank, will be revealed at Westminster on Monday but have already been seen by BBC Sport.

Sports Minister Helen Grant said the findings are "appalling and worrying".

She added: "It's going to take a concerted effort by everyone in football to get the sea change that we need."

The think tank will announce its recommendations at Monday's meeting with MPs and the sports minister in London.

The report was carried out by Dr Stephen Bradbury at Loughborough University, and examined what it took to be the top six coaching and management positions at all 92 professional football clubs in the English leagues.

The study, funded by Football Against Racism in Europe (Fare), says that "institutional discrimination" is present within the English leagues.

Introduced into American football in 2002, the Rooney Rule mandates that teams interview at least one BME candidate when a head coach or general manager position becomes available.

Qualified BME coaches Chris Hughton, Paul Ince and Noel Blake were not counted in the report because they are currently unemployed

[CotswoldRed]

It seems to be its a point scoring exercise on who can be the most shocked and self-righteous.

 

One assumes that on a percentage basis there aren't enough white players.  What is being done here?

[jambodinho]

Helen Grant is the same person that thinks sportswomen should earn the same as sportsmen.

[CotswoldRed]

Helen Grant is the same person that thinks sportswomen should earn the same as sportsmen.

That's a laugh.  Business runs on profit and loss.  If the women's game generates less cash they should be paid less because that is what the business case dictates.

 

I think nurses wages should be more than women tennis players but the cash in the system won't permit that either.

[chipdawg]

I think the problem is that there aren't enough BME coaches that are good enough as things stand. Powell seems to be doing a great job at Huddersfield at the minute, but the likes of Paul Ince and Keith Curle just haven't justified the jobs they've been given, let alone acquiring better ones. However, there's clearly a barrier to black and Asian coaches getting on in the British game, I'd just rather they focused on finding what those barriers are rather than jumping straight to the 'institutional racism' conclusion and introducing a crutch rather than trying to solve the problems where they start

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

but the likes of Paul Ince and Keith Curle just haven't justified the jobs they've been given, let alone acquiring better ones. However, there's clearly a barrier to black and Asian coaches getting on in the British game, I'd just rather they focused on finding what those barriers are rather than jumping straight to the 'institutional racism' conclusion and introducing a crutch rather than trying to solve the problems where they start

 

Oops- can you see what you've done here?

[JM91]

This is a matter that needs to be addressed immediately.

 

Demographically, Our country is 92% white, yet only 75% of players have any white heritage.

 

We need to have the Rooney rule enforced on the scouting of players to ensure that more white players are able to play professional football. 
 

 

 

^ obviously a flawed argument, but I find that often the race discussions throw logic out the window.  Getting a bit tired of how frequently these discussions keep coming up.  3.4% isn't miles off the proportion of black people in the UK, if there is a race which needs to be accommodated it is those of Asian origin, who actually are underrepresented. 

 

[chipdawg]

Oops- can you see what you've done here?

No, but it is a Monday morning...

[Aizoon]

This is a matter that needs to be addressed immediately.

 

Demographically, Our country is 92% white, yet only 75% of players have any white heritage.

 

We need to have the Rooney rule enforced on the scouting of players to ensure that more white players are able to play professional football. 

 

 

 

^ obviously a flawed argument, but I find that often the race discussions throw logic out the window.  Getting a bit tired of how frequently these discussions keep coming up.  3.4% isn't miles off the proportion of black people in the UK, if there is a race which needs to be accommodated it is those of Asian origin, who actually are underrepresented. 

 

 

Thoughtful and accurate, which means it will be studiously ignored by those with axes to grind.

[The Casual Connoisseur]

Surely the rule should be; if you're good enough then you will succeed regardless of ethnicity, I think the stats on players ethnicity shows that. Maybe the truth is that there just aren't that many coaches from Black/mixed ethnicity in this country, not because they arebt good enough, just that there isn't a proportional interest.

Look at how many imported players there are in the Prem, when these players retire they may well go into coaching, but maybe in the warmth of their own country supported by their families and in a familiar background, or just simply wanting to return home (very rich) and give something back (hmmmmm).

Footballers have so much money these days that they are more likely to buy a chain of restaurants, manufacture a new car or sit on a yacht in the south of France sniffing grade a cocaine of a prostitutes navel than they are to go back to school.

[Jesus]

Its all a load of bottox.  If you're good enough, you will get the job, its as simple as that.  Why the race card is continually used is beyond me. If football was racist, surely that would tell in the playing staff too?  It just makes the people complaining look pathetic.  Who would want an interview just because they were black? Surely you would want to get an interview because you have proven yourself, you have worked hard and gained the qualifications?  The problem is simple, not enough black people are completing their coaching badges, and the ones that do might not be good enough, just like the white people.  Unfortunately, if 90% of people doing the course are white, then 90% of the mangers, funnily enough, are going to be white. Its funny how black people campaign for skin colour diversity, however, when it benefits them its perfectly acceptable.

[dargla]

It's simple, of course not so many black coaches, most footballers retire by 32 the average coach would retire in there 60s. Do the math, in time as coaches retire you will see more blacks in coaching roles.

Should clubs sack coaches just so they could employ a black couch for the pic brigade. This country is such a joke.

[Super]

Don't tell me Jason Roberts is moaning yet again?

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

It's simple, of course not so many black coaches, most footballers retire by 32 the average coach would retire in there 60s. Do the math, in time as coaches retire you will see more blacks in coaching roles.

Should clubs sack coaches just so they could employ a black couch for the pic brigade. This country is such a joke.

 

Why does the Pic brigade need a new couch?  What's wrong with the old one?

[LondonBristolian]

This is a matter that needs to be addressed immediately.

 

^ obviously a flawed argument, but I find that often the race discussions throw logic out the window.  Getting a bit tired of how frequently these discussions keep coming up.  3.4% isn't miles off the proportion of black people in the UK, if there is a race which needs to be accommodated it is those of Asian origin, who actually are underrepresented. 

 

 

As you say, race discussions do immediately get people incredibly divided on both sides as everyone quickly leaps to wildly illogical positions but I don't accept the argument there isn't a problem.  Yes, 3.4% isn't too different to the proportion of black people in the UK (and certainly asian people are wildly under represented amongst professional footballers) but the simple fact is 25% of professional footballers are black so the fact that only 3.4% are managing or coaching clearly is an incredibly low level comparatively.

 

And yes, some of those won't be good enough (doesn't stop crap white ex-players getting job after job!) whilst others won't be interested but there is plenty of evidence of both the fact that black coaches who complete their badges struggle to find work and that a number of black players are not taking badges because they don't believe they'll get work.

 

I don't know what the solution to this is - I don't object to the Rooney Rule and I think a lot of its detractors misunderstand it but I can see the arguments against it - but I think we'd all have our heads in the sand if we didn't at least acknowledge that the proporition of black players going onto coaching and management roles is far lowers than the proportion of white players going onto coaches and management roles and it's not entirely clear why that it is.  It might or might not be because of racism but I think it's a bit naive to dismiss that possibility out of hand.

 

In truth, I think a lot of the problem is that the nature of fooball manager recruitment in football ignores a lot of basic interview rules that you'd get in any other walk of life.  For example, if I applied for a job where I work I'd be shorltisted against a person specification, demonstrating how I met or did not meet the skills needed so, if anyone ever asked, there'd be clear justifications of who is and who isn't invited for interview.  There would then be an interview process where the interviews would be scored and notes written so, if challenged, the employer could clearly justify their decision. 

 

Football managers, on the other hand, seem to be appointed on a whim and a prayer.  Which means there's a complete lack of transparency regarding who is and who isn't appointed and, when that happens combined with a proportionally low number of non-white people getting jobs, of course there will be questions asked to why.  What's more, given how disastrous many football management appointments are and how sort managerial shelf-lives are, you sort of wonder whether a more thorough, structured, transparent recruitment process could lead to better appointments all round.  So I'd say football should rethink it's appointment processes - and it's not just in the interests of non-white applicants but also potentially chairmen and fans who want decent appointments to have a thorough, justiifable recruitment process rather than appointing a coach on instinct and hoping for the best.

[dargla]

Like I have said given time the % will even itself out, no need to change rules etc.

[The Casual Connoisseur]

I'm not being argumentative but how can you prove your statement, especially the last bit of it?

"there is plenty of evidence of both the fact that black coaches who complete their badges struggle to find work and that a number of black players are not taking badges because they don't believe they'll get work"

[LondonBristolian]

Like I have said given time the % will even itself out, no need to change rules etc.

 

I think that's certainly possible but, as with the first black footballers, it needs a few more chairmen to be pioneers and offer jobs to black managers in the first place.

 

I think Chris Powell is a brilliant role model and, the more he succeeds, the more it will 'normalise' seeing black football managers.  If 3 or 4 more managers can get decent jobs and have good seasons, I reckon that would be all it took for the barrier to come crashing down.

[Mike Litoris]

Like I have said given time the % will even itself out, no need to change rules etc.

 

Was it this attitude that got us through the 1970's and 80's when the first generation of black players began coming through and forcing their way into top level football in this country?

 

As far as I can tell, your argument is "the bigots, prejudiced and racists will eventually get bored like they did before. why should we attempt to stop it earlier?"

 

The 1980's were a disgusting and disgraceful period in the history of the sport. How far have we actually come since then? 

[LondonBristolian]

I'm not being argumentative but how can you prove your statement, especially the last bit of it?

"there is plenty of evidence of both the fact that black coaches who complete their badges struggle to find work and that a number of black players are not taking badges because they don't believe they'll get work"

 

The first part by looking at the % of black people who hold coaching badges compared to the % of black people in coaching roles.  A higher % of people who have the badges are black than are in work are black and therefore it demonstrates people are completing the badges and not then finding work.  The % with coaching badges is not massively high but it remains consistently higher than than the % in work which suggests an ongoing pattern and not an individual anomaly.

 

The second part is admittedly more anecdotal from reading intereview with black players who've drifted away from the game.  That said, I'm pretty sure survey data has been carried out asking black players why they had not gone for coaching badges and that both the belief that it won't lead to employment and the lack of other black coaches came up as significant factors but I can't remember where that survey is so don't want to swear by it.

[dargla]

Was it this attitude that got us through the 1970's and 80's when the first generation of black players began coming through and forcing their way into top level football in this country?

 

As far as I can tell, your argument is "the bigots, prejudiced and racists will eventually get bored like they did before. why should we attempt to stop it earlier?"

 

The 1980's were a disgusting and disgraceful period in the history of the sport. How far have we actually come since then? 

 

YAWN! Getting fed up of all this skin colour bla bla, nothing like 70's 80's if you bothered reading my previous comment.  

 

It's simple maths,  the average player plays until he is 35, the average coach will end his career around 60.  To start with more players than coaches mix that with earlier age retirement, so every year you could have say 100 players retire with only 5 coaches retire.  As already stated not so many black players played in the UK years ago so makes sense that currently more white coaches.  Now as more coaches start to retire and as do black players these empty coach roles will start being filled with black ex players as more will apply due to number of black players in todays game.

 

Hence why I said in time % will rise, note racist just the obvious.

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

No, but it is a Monday morning...

 

You're so right- its Monday and far too early in the week to start talking about using a syllogism when making a point.

 

But I think I'm gonna stick to a different thread as this one could end in tears and I'm far too shallow to comment further on institutional racism in British football.

 

However, if it's a thread about fat and lazy or which pub we're gonna meet at- I'm your man

[WTFiGO!?!]

You're so right- its Monday and far too early in the week to start talking about using a syllogism when making a point.

 

It's even too Mondayish to be looking words like that up as well, so stop it at once.

Anyway, I don't think the answer is black and white. Or is it? I've confused myself now

[Red Cloud]

no one would give a damn if it was the other way around - should be done purely on ability but this country's fundamentally incapable of treating everyone equally - panicking into racist laws like "positive discrimination" makes things even worse!

[UREDS_91]

Positive discrimination = discrimination.

 

If they want everyone to be treated the same stop making bloody rules that exclude people!  It fundamentally wrong!

[And Its Smith]

Some incredible comments on here. 3.4% of coaches v 25% players is a joke.

Someone above says 'if you are good enough you will get the job'. Don't think you understand how racism works.

Also 'there aren't enough good black coaches' is a stupid argument. How on earth do you know?

[Sir Colby-Tit]

Hmmm, so at least 25% of players come from a BME background, but Football Against Racism in Europe (Fare), says that "institutional discrimination" is present within the English leagues. Horseshit.

 

Proportion of BME MPs in Westminster as at 12 May 2010:

 

Con - 11/306: 3.6%

Labour - 16/258: 6.2%

Lib Dem - 0/57: 0%

House of Commons - 27/649:  4.2%

 

http://www.runnymedetrust.org/blog/50/15/Proportion-of-BME-MPs-in-Westminster.html

 

Maybe Helen Grant should be looking closer to home?

 

Sadly, history shows us that if a lie is repeated often enough, it is believed.

[LondonBristolian]

Positive discrimination = discrimination.

 

If they want everyone to be treated the same stop making bloody rules that exclude people!  It fundamentally wrong!

 

Nobody is making rules that exclude people.  Nor indeed is the Rooney rule actually positive discrimination. That would only be the case if

 

a) clubs were being told to proactively hire black coaches or managers.  They're not.

b) clubs were being told to interview black coaches or managers instead (and not 'as well as') any white candidates they wanted to interview.  They're not.

 

I can see why people have reservations about the Rooney Rule but it is simply inaccurate to call it positive discrimination as that's a completely different thing (which, incidentally, I believe is illegal under UK law.)

[LondonBristolian]

 should be done purely on ability but this country's fundamentally incapable of treating everyone equally

 

I think this hits the nail on the head.  We simply should not be in a situation where there's even a need for anyone to suggest rules to give non-white managers a fair chance of getting hired.  It's sad that that's where we find ourselves.

[Monkeh]

I see jason roberts is speaking again,

Can some one tell me out of the 30% of BME footballers that have retired, how many of these hold the correct coaching quilfications to hold one of these top 552 coaching postions?

 

Is it right to hire a BME person without quilifcations over a white person who holds the correct quilifcations

 

Its alright spouting off numbers but lets get all the facts up together before we declare that BME people are being held back because of their skin colour