1974 Liverpool Oct Programme

[shaner89]

I have recently acquired a copy of the FA Cup game from March 1974 when city played Liverpool at Ashton Gate.

My question, I hope, is a simple one to answer.

I was born in 1989, so 90s rules onwards are most common to me. I was baffled when looking at this program for the first time, to see that the team line up comprised of 12 players. Why 12...? Surely there wasn't only 1 sub allowed. And its always been 11 v 11, right?

So why the twelfth player... What was his role?

Someone please help.

[A Horse With No Name]

Yes only one sub in those days

[glynriley]

I have recently acquired a copy of the FA Cup game from March 1974 when city played Liverpool at Ashton Gate.

My question, I hope, is a simple one to answer.

I was born in 1989, so 90s rules onwards are most common to me. I was baffled when looking at this program for the first time, to see that the team line up comprised of 12 players. Why 12...? Surely there wasn't only 1 sub allowed. And its always been 11 v 11, right?

So why the twelfth player... What was his role?

Someone please help.

 

There were no subs until 1965.

 

Looks like a liittle light reading on the history of the game is required, young man!!!

[City Rocker]

It was well into the 80s before 2 subs were allowed, maybe even late 80s?

[shaner89]

I actually looked all over before posting on here, but didn't find any thing useful.

Thanks for your responses.

[red mist]

Am I right in thinking the first sub was Peacock of Charlton?

[glynriley]

It was well into the 80s before 2 subs were allowed, maybe even late 80s?

 

86/87 was when 2 subs came in

[glynriley]

Am I right in thinking the first sub was Peacock of Charlton?

 

Yep, replaced an injured GK.

[cidered abroad]

I have recently acquired a copy of the FA Cup game from March 1974 when city played Liverpool at Ashton Gate.

My question, I hope, is a simple one to answer.

I was born in 1989, so 90s rules onwards are most common to me. I was baffled when looking at this program for the first time, to see that the team line up comprised of 12 players. Why 12...? Surely there wasn't only 1 sub allowed. And its always been 11 v 11, right?

So why the twelfth player... What was his role?

Someone please help.

As stated by others, only one sub.

When sub's were first introduced in the late 1960's, the sub could only replace a player who was injured and unable to continue. The reason for the introduction of sub's, was the ever increasing number of important domestic games such as the FA Cup Final, where a player suffered serious injury like broken leg, that one sub was allowed for injured players.

As you will guess, it soon became clear that players who were subbed, in many cases, were feigning injury thus making a mockery of the reason for subs. So a year or two later, one sub was allowed without any conditions attached.

As a rider to this explanation, the last time City won a title before this season, in a match versus Watford, City's goalkeeper Tony Cook broke his arm five minutes into the match. Right back Ivor Guy went in goal and City continued with ten men.

About five minutes before the end, Jack Boxley scored the only goal of the game. So even though a player less for 85 minutes, City's team spirit won the match.

Just like the team this season.

[shaner89]

As stated by others, only one sub.

When sub's were first introduced in the late 1960's, the sub could only replace a player who was injured and unable to continue. The reason for the introduction of sub's, was the ever increasing number of important domestic games such as the FA Cup Final, where a player suffered serious injury like broken leg, that one sub was allowed for injured players.

As you will guess, it soon became clear that players who were subbed, in many cases, were feigning injury thus making a mockery of the reason for subs. So a year or two later, one sub was allowed without any conditions attached.

As a rider to this explanation, the last time City won a title before this season, in a match versus Watford, City's goalkeeper Tony Cook broke his arm five minutes into the match. Right back Ivor Guy went in goal and City continued with ten men.

About five minutes before the end, Jack Boxley scored the only goal of the game. So even though a player less for 85 minutes, City's team spirit won the match.

Just like the team this season.

Thank you very much for the detailed response. Really appreciate it. Especially the link to city of past and present.

I have been a season ticket holder for 8 years, and have followed city since I was a kid, but little things like this that are before I was even born haven't really came up in conversation until I got the programme yesterday. Typically I work with 1 rovers fan, and a load of moto gp and formula 1 fans who have no interest in football so getting and sense out of them is almost impossible ...

[cidered abroad]

Thank you very much for the detailed response. Really appreciate it. Especially the link to city of past and present.

I have been a season ticket holder for 8 years, and have followed city since I was a kid, but little things like this that are before I was even born haven't really came up in conversation until I got the programme yesterday. Typically I work with 1 rovers fan, and a load of moto gp and formula 1 fans who have no interest in football so getting and sense out of them is almost impossible ...

Keep the faith for the the rest of your life. The road will never be easy, but every so often, the club and team, will lift up your spirits to a level that makes it all worthwhile.

By the way, Jack Boxley is one of only two survivors from the team of 1954-55 with Alec Eisentrager the other one.

[havanatopia]

So..

 

1 sub in 1965

2 subs in 1986

3 subs in ?

 

I sincerely hope we never get to 4 subs. That would be too soft.

[shaner89]

So..

1 sub in 1965

2 subs in 1986

3 subs in ?

I sincerely hope we never get to 4 subs. That would be too soft.

This was originally about the amount of sub's on the bench. If you think there are actually 7 (5 in some cases) on the bench now, its amazing how rules have change so much.

I really hope we never have a game when you can make more than 3 sub's. I honestly believe there is no need for more than 3.

[handsofclay]

If you look up the FA Cup Finals of the 1950s to early 60s you will see how many were affected by teams going down to ten men due to a serious injury or having to carry a passenger. In the 1957 Cup Final the Busby Babes, the league champs, had their keeper Wood stretchered off after 6 mins after what was considered a fair barge by the Villa striker McParland that would nowadays earn him an instant red and a season long ban and possible criminal proceedings for assault. Danny Blanchflower's bro Jackie a centre-half went in goal with Wood returning as a passenger on the wing with a broken cheek bone later in the match. The Busby Babes lost 2-1 and lost the chance to become the first team to do the Double in the 20th Century, obviously most of them lost their lives 9 months later. To rub it in McParland scored both Villa goals.

 

As has been previously stated, from the mid 1960s until the mid 1980s one sub was allowed. However, this was not the case in international matches where two subs could be used from I believe 5 nominated subs, or in World Cup matches 2 subs used from the rest of the squad. The last world cup where subs were not used was England in 1966. By 1970, two subs could be used in WC matches, as England made the fateful error of subbing Bobby Charlton and someone else to save them for the Semis when 2-0 up with about 20 mins to play against the W Germans in the QFs, the Germans came back took it to extra time and won it in extra time 3-2.

[NATCHER]

This game is my first memories of supporting my team.

Stood in The Schoolboys Enclosure, I can only recall Liverpools white shirts and their red numbers. Am I right in thinking it was Toshack, Keegan & Highway (sp)?

Not a bad way to start a lifetime of support.

HAPPY DAYS!!!!!

[I am the mole]

So..

1 sub in 1965

2 subs in 1986

3 subs in ?

I sincerely hope we never get to 4 subs. That would be too soft.

sometime around 1994 maybe??

[cidered abroad]

If you look up the FA Cup Finals of the 1950s to early 60s you will see how many were affected by teams going down to ten men due to a serious injury or having to carry a passenger. In the 1957 Cup Final the Busby Babes, the league champs, had their keeper Wood stretchered off after 6 mins after what was considered a fair barge by the Villa striker McParland that would nowadays earn him an instant red and a season long ban and possible criminal proceedings for assault. Danny Blanchflower's bro Jackie a centre-half went in goal with Wood returning as a passenger on the wing with a broken cheek bone later in the match. The Busby Babes lost 2-1 and lost the chance to become the first team to do the Double in the 20th Century, obviously most of them lost their lives 9 months later. To rub it in McParland scored both Villa goals.

As has been previously stated, from the mid 1960s until the mid 1980s one sub was allowed. However, this was not the case in international matches where two subs could be used from I believe 5 nominated subs, or in World Cup matches 2 subs used from the rest of the squad. The last world cup where subs were not used was England in 1966. By 1970, two subs could be used in WC matches, as England made the fateful error of subbing Bobby Charlton and someone else to save them for the Semis when 2-0 up with about 20 mins to play against the W Germans in the QFs, the Germans came back took it to extra time and won it in extra time 3-2.

Other cup finals where teams down to ten FIT players. Teams affected first.

1953 Bolton (Eric Bell) v Blackpool

1956 Man City ( Jimmy Meadows) v Newcastle

1957 Man U (Ray Wood) v Villa

1959 Blackburn (Dave Whelan later owner of Wigan) v Wolves

1960 Nottm Forest (Roy Dwight, uncle of Elton John) v Luton Town

[handsofclay]

1959 Nottm F

1960 Blackburn R

1961 Leicester Chalmers, I think, being the injured player. Thus when Spurs achieved the Double the first in 20th century, it was against 10 men, whereas Utd in 57 had to try and win the Final part of it with 10 men against 11.