screech Posted July 11, 2015 Report Share Posted July 11, 2015 Stand for election on an anti austerity mandate and get elected. Refuse a heavily conditioned bailout from Brussells and the IMF. Run out of money and force through a referendum urging the public to vote against the bailout conditions. Win the referendum as you planned. Stick two fingers up to the people who elected you and voted for you in your referendum and take the original offer on the table. What an absolute basket case of a government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marshy Posted July 11, 2015 Report Share Posted July 11, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aizoon Posted July 11, 2015 Report Share Posted July 11, 2015 I'm sure the Germans will impose 'kultur' on Greece - again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
screech Posted July 11, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2015 I'm sure the Germans will impose 'kultur' on Greece - again... Germany will do anything to keep Greece in the Euro, I don't understand why the Greek government can't see this. They have all the power but are about to throw it all away. Idiots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aizoon Posted July 11, 2015 Report Share Posted July 11, 2015 Germany will do anything to keep Greece in the Euro, I don't understand why the Greek government can't see this. They have all the power but are about to throw it all away. Idiots. Don't underestimate them. They know that too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marshy Posted July 11, 2015 Report Share Posted July 11, 2015 Germany will do anything to keep Greece in the Euro, I don't understand why the Greek government can't see this. They have all the power but are about to throw it all away. Idiots. When I travelled to Greece in the 60s the first question you were asked was 'Are you German?' One quickly learnt to say, 'Oxi, ee-may Anglos' after which everything was fine, the welcome and hospitality overwhelming. I'm afraid with this crisis we are seeing the old enmities re-emerging with Europe seemingly split and dithering. Does anyone truly believe that with the Greeks still simmering with resentment over war-time reparations there is any chance that they will keep their side of any agreement cobbled together? Nigel nails it again with this speech to Tsipras in the European Parliament. No doubt his detractors will exhibit the good old knee jerk reaction and howl 'racist' without bothering to listen to what he says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRL Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 When I travelled to Greece in the 60s the first question you were asked was 'Are you German?' One quickly learnt to say, 'Oxi, ee-may Anglos' after which everything was fine, the welcome and hospitality overwhelming. I'm afraid with this crisis we are seeing the old enmities re-emerging with Europe seemingly split and dithering. Does anyone truly believe that with the Greeks still simmering with resentment over war-time reparations there is any chance that they will keep their side of any agreement cobbled together? Nigel nails it again with this speech to Tsipras in the European Parliament. No doubt his detractors will exhibit the good old knee jerk reaction and howl 'racist' without bothering to listen to what he says. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ai43B588_co Interesting to hear many more people vocally supporting him in the chamber now... Cracks starting to appear? He used to be a lone voice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS5_RED Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 When I travelled to Greece in the 60s the first question you were asked was 'Are you German?' One quickly learnt to say, 'Oxi, ee-may Anglos' after which everything was fine, the welcome and hospitality overwhelming. I'm afraid with this crisis we are seeing the old enmities re-emerging with Europe seemingly split and dithering. Does anyone truly believe that with the Greeks still simmering with resentment over war-time reparations there is any chance that they will keep their side of any agreement cobbled together? Nigel nails it again with this speech to Tsipras in the European Parliament. No doubt his detractors will exhibit the good old knee jerk reaction and howl 'racist' without bothering to listen to what he says. Wars have definitely been started over less...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 Interesting to hear many more people vocally supporting him in the chamber now... Cracks starting to appear? He used to be a lone voice! While I don't agree with UKIPs ideology, there is no denying Farage has always been a good speaker. I'm sure there will be many people listening to him right now. It seems Greece have won a third bailout.. how longs this going to last.. 18 months? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipdawg Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 All of Greece's 'bailouts' haven't been designed to bail out Greece's economy, they've been designed to protect the rest of Europe's liability in the event of Greek failure. We can wax lyrical all we like about whether Greece should have been in the single currency or not, but they are and the ECB should have had an obligation to sort them out properly, rather than propping them up into the German banks had protected themselves. That said, the country is a basket case and needed serious reform of even the most basic things, especially regarding taxation. I imagine the Greek people can afford to be very generous when income tax was in essence 'voluntary'. But if the EU and Central Bank had acted in the interests of the Greek economy rather than the interests of private banks, sensible reform on a sensible time scale could have been achieved instead of this shit storm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 All of Greece's 'bailouts' haven't been designed to bail out Greece's economy, they've been designed to protect the rest of Europe's liability in the event of Greek failure. We can wax lyrical all we like about whether Greece should have been in the single currency or not, but they are and the ECB should have had an obligation to sort them out properly, rather than propping them up into the German banks had protected themselves. That said, the country is a basket case and needed serious reform of even the most basic things, especially regarding taxation. I imagine the Greek people can afford to be very generous when income tax was in essence 'voluntary'. But if the EU and Central Bank had acted in the interests of the Greek economy rather than the interests of private banks, sensible reform on a sensible time scale could have been achieved instead of this shit storm Totally correct. Merkel's attitude in these negotiations has been playing to a domestic political audience, rather than seeking a long-term sustainable solution. The "left-wing loonies" of the IMF had a lot more sensible plan, but that is not what the eurozone leaders have signed up to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipdawg Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 Totally correct. Merkel's attitude in these negotiations has been playing to a domestic political audience, rather than seeking a long-term sustainable solution. The "left-wing loonies" of the IMF had a lot more sensible plan, but that is not what the eurozone leaders have signed up to. That's because the IMF were trying to sort the Greek economy out rather than protect the markets in Paris and Frankfurt. It is interesting how the IMF have ended up being painted as the bad guys in all corners Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welcome To The Jungle Posted July 14, 2015 Report Share Posted July 14, 2015 I have been a defender of the EU. If there was an in out referendum tomorrow, I'd probably vote out. In doing so I'd sacrifice my 25 days paid holiday and my human rights to the mercy of the Tories but I will not see Germany kick the greeks in the face for the failings of EU, greek and other financial leaders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipdawg Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 I have been a defender of the EU. If there was an in out referendum tomorrow, I'd probably vote out. In doing so I'd sacrifice my 25 days paid holiday and my human rights to the mercy of the Tories but I will not see Germany kick the greeks in the face for the failings of EU, greek and other financial leaders. How would the UK leaving the EU change Germany's attitude towards the Greek financial crisis? Especially as it's much more a 'Eurozone'/ECB issue than an EU one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marshy Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 All of Greece's 'bailouts' haven't been designed to bail out Greece's economy, they've been designed to protect the rest of Europe's liability in the event of Greek failure. We can wax lyrical all we like about whether Greece should have been in the single currency or not, but they are and the ECB should have had an obligation to sort them out properly, rather than propping them up into the German banks had protected themselves. That said, the country is a basket case and needed serious reform of even the most basic things, especially regarding taxation. I imagine the Greek people can afford to be very generous when income tax was in essence 'voluntary'. But if the EU and Central Bank had acted in the interests of the Greek economy rather than the interests of private banks, sensible reform on a sensible time scale could have been achieved instead of this shit storm Agree with all of this Chippers until I got to the last sentence. Seems to be that the whole mess can never be put to rest until Europe becomes one country and they agree to permanent fiscal transfers such as we have in the UK with the Barnett formula. Some of you want this I know. I tend to take the view, attributed to Benjamin Franklin I think, that 'if you give up sovereignty in the hope of economic gain then you deserve neither and will doubtless lose both.' Most appropriate in the case of Greece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marshy Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 Totally correct. Merkel's attitude in these negotiations has been playing to a domestic political audience, rather than seeking a long-term sustainable solution. The "left-wing loonies" of the IMF had a lot more sensible plan, but that is not what the eurozone leaders have signed up to. Absolutely. However, it is possible that Merkel may have overplayed her hand. There is quite a bit in the German press along the lines of goodwill built up over 70 years being destroyed overnight in Brussels. With regard to the IMF it seems to me that their classic recipe of devaluation and debt relief was unavailable to the Greeks because of their membership of the Euro. Instead of external devaluation they have to suffer further years of internal devaluation under German guidance. How much more can that economy take? It would not surprise me at all to see Golden Dawn take centre stage, or even another military coup as on 21/4/67. What was Einstein's definition of insanity again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marshy Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 That's because the IMF were trying to sort the Greek economy out rather than protect the markets in Paris and Frankfurt. It is interesting how the IMF have ended up being painted as the bad guys in all corners Not sure I agree with this Chippers. I think they were trying to protect a currency and hopefully prevent global meltdown rather than help the Greeks. For me it should have been the job of the ECB as lender of last resort to sort out the mess, not the IMF. They bought a few years' grace to hopefully give the ECB time to build a firewall and prevent contagion. That is what it was all about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marshy Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 I have been a defender of the EU. If there was an in out referendum tomorrow, I'd probably vote out. In doing so I'd sacrifice my 25 days paid holiday and my human rights to the mercy of the Tories but I will not see Germany kick the greeks in the face for the failings of EU, greek and other financial leaders. If you are wavering WTTJ take the time to have a listen to this speech by Dan Hannan to the Oxford Union. It is interesting to scroll to the end and listen to the before/after votes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 The only way out is to write of part of the debt, Greece will never pay back what is owed, Write off 30% as suggested in exchange for the reforms the EU are demanding, Greece need to actually collect their taxes from everyone and get people back into work, they also need to face up to the fact that they are partly responsible for this mess and stop blaming everyone else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipdawg Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 Agree with all of this Chippers until I got to the last sentence. Seems to be that the whole mess can never be put to rest until Europe becomes one country and they agree to permanent fiscal transfers such as we have in the UK with the Barnett formula. Some of you want this I know. I tend to take the view, attributed to Benjamin Franklin I think, that 'if you give up sovereignty in the hope of economic gain then you deserve neither and will doubtless lose both.' Most appropriate in the case of Greece. While there may be a desire amongst some to have a unified Europe, I don't see that as the only option. Ireland, Spain, Italy, Portugal all received bailouts from the ECB and have come through the other side. I think the ECB needs to realise that it has to act in the interests of all it's members rather than just those with the most to lose, but a single European state is not on the horizon as far as I can see And just for clarification, I don't know anyone that wants to see a single European state; I know I don't. I have in the past said that I don't feel any more represented by Eton old boys in Westminster than I would do by bureaucrats in Brussels, but I don't want to see any nation swallowed up in a European state. I just believe in the mutual benefits of (a certain level of) European integration Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipdawg Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 Not sure I agree with this Chippers. I think they were trying to protect a currency and hopefully prevent global meltdown rather than help the Greeks. For me it should have been the job of the ECB as lender of last resort to sort out the mess, not the IMF. They bought a few years' grace to hopefully give the ECB time to build a firewall and prevent contagion. That is what it was all about. The lender of last resort would almost always, in effect, be the IMF; if your central bank fails, that's your last option before you start taking the international equivalent of pay day loans from Russia. I agree though and have said earlier, that the ECB should have acted more in Greece's interests Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welcome To The Jungle Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 How would the UK leaving the EU change Germany's attitude towards the Greek financial crisis? Especially as it's much more a 'Eurozone'/ECB issue than an EU one It wouldn't as such. But I don't want us to be part of this. I hope the Eurozone collapses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipdawg Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 It wouldn't as such. But I don't want us to be part of this. I hope the Eurozone collapses The Eurozone and the EU are separate 'entities'. While I suspect that the collapse of one may lead to the collapse of the other, we are not and probably never will be, in the 'Eurozone' I don't hope the Eurozone collapsed; the last recession will seem like an economic paradise compared to the one that would accompany such a collapse, though I certainly hope they learn the lessons that are there to be learnt and change the way the interact with member states Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welcome To The Jungle Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 The Eurozone and the EU are separate 'entities'. While I suspect that the collapse of one may lead to the collapse of the other, we are not and probably never will be, in the 'Eurozone' I don't hope the Eurozone collapsed; the last recession will seem like an economic paradise compared to the one that would accompany such a collapse, though I certainly hope they learn the lessons that are there to be learnt and change the way the interact with member states A Eurozone collapse would be worse but it would recover quickly in countries not using the Euro like here and Poland. Germany and France would also recover quickly. The south of Europe would take a bit longer but would be much stronger for it. By collapse I think I mean more of a dismantling country by country. First Greece, then Spain, then Italy etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Red Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 I saw a report the other day from M&S which stated that their Greek stores are still trading at around 75% of 'normal' levels, despite the crippling capital controls in place. Now I'm sure tourists account for some of that, but reading between the lines just how much of the total Greek economy is now entirely cash based and therefore outside of the scope of taxation and banking? The whole sorry shambles must be very close to a complete collapse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
screech Posted July 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted July 17, 2015 Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 Good news for the German export market then. They must be cock-a-hoop that Greece have decided to continue to sleepwalk into ze master plan. Never ceases to amaze me Screech how a strong pound is represented in the press as a good thing "because you can get cheaper drinks on your holiday!" First up, not all of us holiday in Europe, and secondly some of us poor sods are trying to sell goods and services over there. Whilst not putting up my rates, I'm 13% more expensive to eurozone employers than I was in January. :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CiderHider Posted July 17, 2015 Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 So glad we are not in this utter bullshit, sooner we leave the EU too the better, watch it all burn then take it all! MUHAHAHAHAH! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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