Bs4Red Posted August 18, 2015 Report Share Posted August 18, 2015 As not only a massive City fan but also a football coach I have watched back a few games from last season in League One and this season in the Championship so far.... What I found was that our formation of what is an extremely attacking 352 may be the reason we are being opened up so often and in two games look like we could concede with every attack faced. Our back 3 (Williams, Flint, Ayling) these are supposed to be our centre backs, who's job is to defend. However Williams and Ayling are also extremely forward minded players, which was fine in League One where the quality of the teams we played meant that either we would attack and not lose the ball or the opponents were not good enough to take advantage of the counter. However in the championship and Saturdays first goal was a prime example of where 352 can kill teams. Williams had made a overlap of Bryan leaving the whole defensive left side open and against a good Brentford team it took them 3 passes (and a flap from Hamer) and it was 1-1. I'm not for a second blaming Cotts but I just sense a bit of naivety and stubbornness from him to change the way we play. Ayling and Williams are not your normal defenders seen in a 352, they are almost second wing backs behind Fredericks and Bryan. I believe to play 352 in the Championship you need 3 out and out central defenders to play in those positions otherwise you leave yourselves exposed as we have on many occasions in 180 minutes of championship football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sydneybcfc Posted August 18, 2015 Report Share Posted August 18, 2015 You can see how easy we are cut open on the counter that we are too far forward. I'm pretty sure that's even how the Luton coach said they set up as they knew we would be vulnerable. I've only seen the Sheff Weds game and you could see our wingbacks don't sit back far enough especially away from home. Weds looked like they played 3 up top with two of those playing very wide, every quick break left us 3 on 3 and our centrebacks being drawn out very wide to cover for having no full backs which creates a lot of space. My idea of a wingback is playing just in front of the back 3 and the ability to bomb forward, our wingbacks seem to play midfield if not a little higher. We found a formation that worked and the quality of teams in L1 meant they had to try and adapt to us, in the championship we have so far looked like a one trick pony. By no means doom and gloom, we have scored in 2 out of 3 games this season but we do look very vulnerable to the counter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomerRed Posted August 18, 2015 Report Share Posted August 18, 2015 I'm not a coach or particularly savvy about tactics, but must admit this was my fear for this season. I remember how Sheffield United beat us at the Gate last season 3-1 on the counter. They were one of the few clubs to suss it and be good enough to exploit the system. It stands to reason a lot more clubs far better than them will be looking to do that to us this season. Cotts seems hell bent on sticking to the plan though and the fact that the Under 21s and other levels apparently play in a similar way suggests we aren't going to change. I know we shut up shop a couple of times last season, but we weren't great at it and players like Ayling, Bryan and Little are not inclined to play like that. Strange really, one of my main memories of teams that Cotts managed before like Pompey and Forest is how well they strangled the game at the Gate to get a 0-0. Very dull but effective at times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRISTOL86 Posted August 18, 2015 Report Share Posted August 18, 2015 IMO it's going to be suicide persisting with 3 at the back this year unless we become a lot more disciplined with the ball. Not saying we should abandon it - tactics aren't really my thing, but you could see so many times on Saturday we dwelled too long on the ball in dangerous areas and got cut open so easily. It didn't help that we were a man light in midfield, but League One oppo would need 10 chances to score, whereas we saw at Sheffield and again on Saturday that we're dealing with a lot more clinical opponents. 9 times out of 10 they're going to pick the right pass and make a chance, which is the difference between the two leagues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formerly known as ivan Posted August 18, 2015 Report Share Posted August 18, 2015 Don't think the formation is the problem. Attacking football is the way it should be played. The issue is, and it's been stated over and over again, the lack of a decent holding midfielder sitting in front the back three. Teams won't walk through us as easy as Brentford did if we add this addition to the squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miketh2nd Posted August 18, 2015 Report Share Posted August 18, 2015 I think we attack too much on the wings as for example if ayling and Fredericks come forward pack/Smith can't cover then and the centre of midfield too. As said in a few other threads I'd be interested to see how ayling did in a midfield role if we got a cb to replace him . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sydneybcfc Posted August 18, 2015 Report Share Posted August 18, 2015 For me the issue isn't the formation its how high we play it up the pitch. In possession i'd like to see our wingbacks playing L and R midfield, available for the pass wide from the defence and bombing forward if we have the ball in the final 1/3rd. Then dropping deep to form a 5 when we lose possession. Currently it seem to me the wingbacks push forward to almost wing when we have the ball making a front 4, which of course leaves them a long way to come back in the event of an opposition break away. Against Wednesday i felt they rarely sat back further than L and R midfield and only joined the back 3 in the event the ball was in our 1/3 but by then we were usually stretched on a breakaway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChippenhamRed Posted August 18, 2015 Report Share Posted August 18, 2015 Don't think the formation is the problem. Attacking football is the way it should be played. The issue is, and it's been stated over and over again, the lack of a decent holding midfielder sitting in front the back three. Teams won't walk through us as easy as Brentford did if we add this addition to the squad. Can Korey not be the holding midfielder? I've not seen us yet this season but he was superb last year at putting in tackles, breaking up play and emerging with the ball. Is he not doing the same so far this year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cidered abroad Posted August 18, 2015 Report Share Posted August 18, 2015 Some very perceptive comments here and I agree with the great majority. I think Sydney has hit it on the head when he says that the formation is fine but we sit too high up the pitch. We had the same problem in the autumn last year with sides picking us off. Sheff U at home was a good example but we also lost leads away from home at Fleetwood, Walsall and others. The big problem if we form up 5-3-2 instead of 3-5-2, is that our attacking potential is significantly diminished. I now believe that there are two or three of last season's Champions that will not be able to step up a league every match but could be adequate on the bench, so three experienced Championship level recruits needed now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old_eastender Posted August 18, 2015 Report Share Posted August 18, 2015 Can Korey not be the holding midfielder? I've not seen us yet this season but he was superb last year at putting in tackles, breaking up play and emerging with the ball. Is he not doing the same so far this year? Yes when Elliot was in the team Korey played the anchor role and played it very well, but with Pack alongside him who loves picking the ball up from our CBs, Korey is caught between holding and supporting further forward. That is the problem. When Pack is in position as the holding midfielder he gets easily exposed because of his lack of pace. Although lots on here seem to not want to hear it, I presume out of a sense of loyalty to a player that was mostly good for us last season, the answer is to replace Pack with a more energetic forward thinking midfielder and detail Korey to sit in front of the CBs as he did so successfully when partnered with Wade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChippenhamRed Posted August 18, 2015 Report Share Posted August 18, 2015 Yes when Elliot was in the team Korey played the anchor role and played it very well, but with Pack alongside him who loves picking the ball up from our CBs, Korey is caught between holding and supporting further forward. That is the problem. When Pack is in position as the holding midfielder he gets easily exposed because of his lack of pace. Although lots on here seem to not want to hear it, I presume out of a sense of loyalty to a player that was mostly good for us last season, the answer is to replace Pack with a more energetic forward thinking midfielder and detail Korey to sit in front of the CBs as he did so successfully when partnered with Wade. Good post. Thinking about it, most of Korey's best performances that I recall from last season were alongside Elliott. I may be remembering wrongly but I think MK at home was a good example. I certainly believe Korey has the attributes to be the holding midfielder, and if Pack is compromising his effectiveness in that role then that's another reason why we need to sign another midfielder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murraysrightplum Posted August 18, 2015 Report Share Posted August 18, 2015 We play 3 at the back to accommodate Flint who I think struggles in a back 4. The whole formation is built around him and obviously worked brilliantly last season. I do think we need tactical flexibility this season as teams will be much stronger and move us around a lot more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myol'man Posted August 18, 2015 Report Share Posted August 18, 2015 As not only a massive City fan but also a football coach I have watched back a few games from last season in League One and this season in the Championship so far.... What I found was that our formation of what is an extremely attacking 352 may be the reason we are being opened up so often and in two games look like we could concede with every attack faced. Our back 3 (Williams, Flint, Ayling) these are supposed to be our centre backs, who's job is to defend. However Williams and Ayling are also extremely forward minded players, which was fine in League One where the quality of the teams we played meant that either we would attack and not lose the ball or the opponents were not good enough to take advantage of the counter. However in the championship and Saturdays first goal was a prime example of where 352 can kill teams. Williams had made a overlap of Bryan leaving the whole defensive left side open and against a good Brentford team it took them 3 passes (and a flap from Hamer) and it was 1-1. I'm not for a second blaming Cotts but I just sense a bit of naivety and stubbornness from him to change the way we play. Ayling and Williams are not your normal defenders seen in a 352, they are almost second wing backs behind Fredericks and Bryan. I believe to play 352 in the Championship you need 3 out and out central defenders to play in those positions otherwise you leave yourselves exposed as we have on many occasions in 180 minutes of championship football. Agree with the point you make about Williams and Ayling being used as overlapping centre backs. There were times last season when it looked like Cotterill had come up with a whole new 1-2-7 system , great in League One when you easily the best team in the division, but in the Championship? Suicide! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 18, 2015 Report Share Posted August 18, 2015 I'm no coach but with 11 men we were leading Brentford and were carving them open, indeed we could have scored 4 before half time. I also look at our defence and v sheff weds we had an injured keeper and a makeshift defence following the injury to Bryan [remember Burns at RWB and Fredericks at LWB?), equally makeshift against Luton with Freeman and Robinson playing wingback. Oh and a new keeper to boot. Whilst I think Ayling is being a bit cavalier at the moment I think he is trying to compensate for the loss that Little has been to our attacking potency, and also Fredericks not yet being settled or showing his promise going forward. That Ayling endeavour led to our first goal of the game and set our stall out. Whilst Brentford created chances... you'd be hard pushed to say they created guilt edged chances though and but for the fourth (which was a great finish) the goals did not come from a flaw in the system or gapping holes exploited by Brentford. If anything I saw Brentford knock the ball meaninglessly about themselves a lot because they weren't able to breach us except on the counter. I think you ignore the dynamics too. 3-2 and with 10 men left we have to go chasing the game. I would expect us to get hit on the counter and I would expect Brentford to be able to exploit a 10 man newly promoted team chasing a goal. So I'm not ready to say its the formation. I'm ready to say we have players playing a specialist role within our defence (GK, Wingbacks) who have not been with eachother for any real amount of time to say we can expect too much from them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 18, 2015 Report Share Posted August 18, 2015 I now believe that there are two or three of last season's Champions that will not be able to step up a league every match but could be adequate on the bench, so three experienced Championship level recruits needed now. Based upon just 180 minutes after months away from competitive football for a well earned summer break? Blimey, we do have some demanding fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redapple Posted August 18, 2015 Report Share Posted August 18, 2015 I'msure SC is quite aware of the problems defensively and is acting on it . Having said that 5 of the 9 goals have been basic footballing errors . Also we've got absolutely no chance of keeping goals out as long as the GK is wearing a luminous yellow kit . Bring back the Green . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobBobSuperBob Posted August 18, 2015 Report Share Posted August 18, 2015 Spot on - playing this system at this or a better level - the three 'centre halves' have to be, before anything else defenders Great they can play too but defensive discipline and shape should be there first priority for me #Ayling4midfieldfuture Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Cyril Posted August 18, 2015 Report Share Posted August 18, 2015 Is it just me or does anyone else find the phrase 'bombing forward' a little weird when applied to a footballer playing wing back. Ignore this altogether though if we have signed a squadron of Heinkel 111's to soften up opposing teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YorkshireSection Posted August 18, 2015 Report Share Posted August 18, 2015 I said as Much last season and yesterday in a post, I couldn't agree more OP. We simply don't have a plan b, and I'm worried that we are still chasing players who directly fit into the one way we play, which of course has proved very effective in the league below, but MAY not be as well suited to a league with such quality opposition in it. This season we will need versatility and that ability to defend for long, sustained periods of intense pressure, something that GJ put into effect during the "nearly season", a quality midfielder and central defender is a must in this window, or it's going to be a long, hard season for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin phantom Posted August 18, 2015 Admin Report Share Posted August 18, 2015 For me it's a lot simpler to solve, the back three are missing Bryan and Little playing infront of them ! The back 5 were pretty much settled all of last season Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YorkshireSection Posted August 18, 2015 Report Share Posted August 18, 2015 Spot on - playing this system at this or a better level - the three 'centre halves' have to be, before anything else defenders Great they can play too but defensive discipline and shape should be there first priority for me #Ayling4midfieldfuture IMHO Ayling is wasted in defence, the guy is class, he has fantastic ball control, and can move the ball from one end of the field to the other at pace, I think he's exactly what we need in front of a back, 3 or 4, however finding a defensive replacement for him would be a major task. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sodburyred Posted August 18, 2015 Report Share Posted August 18, 2015 I find it interesting that when Cotts first came he was described as a hoofball ,negative football merchant now he's being lambasted for playing to attacking. I think the formation is fine,the problem is the players we have are to naive. An experienced Cisse type player in the middle would go along way to helping the silly mistakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bs4Red Posted August 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2015 At one point on saturday there was Williams making a run for Bryan who had the ball, he passed it to Ayling who was further forward than any midfielder. Now, I'm all for entertaining and attacking football, and our first goal was an example of that with Ayling going past two or three players and passing to Kodjia to score, but when you have two centre backs and a wing back up near the opposition goal in open play, it can be labelled gung-ho. We were left with no defence, the midfield were also up field and a turn over of possession followed by a quick ball could very easily have resulted in a goal conceded in that instance. But its fair to say that we should have had two or three before they scored, so its a balancing act which they have to get right. I'm no coach but it seems to me that when Ayling goes on his runs, Williams has to stay back with a covering midfielder (Pack preferably) dropping back and keeping shape. That didn't happen saturday, the team were open and naive with no one on the pitch to sort it out. I'm sure SC will put it right and, when he does, we'll be picking up points against most teams in this division. This is my exact point and for the people saying a holding midfielder will change that are wrong, at times we only have 1/2 at the back and Brentford were breaking with 4,5,6 men on Saturday. Now whether you have 10 or 11 men you are going to be picked off. This season and the majority of last year it's like we must score 3 or 4 to win the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobBobSuperBob Posted August 18, 2015 Report Share Posted August 18, 2015 Was fantastic to watch last year but not a system used particularly successfully by many clubs as you go up levels (unfortunately). Good sides exploit the space left by the wing backs Woul love to see it succeed but needs a special side, drilled well to have a chance. Would definitely like to see us be able to play a different system - slight concern that looking at the squad as it stands I'm not sure we've got the ideal personnel to switch to a 4-4-2 , 4-4-1-1 etc ( was thinking who'd play rhs of midfield - Agard is the only one I can think of (and not sure about him there) As always with our club ...... Interesting times !!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brad blit Posted August 18, 2015 Report Share Posted August 18, 2015 I do agree with the original point of this post, but for the same reason I wouldn't change anything because right now is probably the best time its been for any City in years. We are playing attractive, attacking football which is a joy to watch and we have the right players for this. With Freeman on the pitch we could have easily been more than 2-1 up (I think this will improve one Kodjia adjusts more and we make one more quality signing) and whilst keeping clean sheets is good, I don't think its gonna happen as much this year with a better quality league and we should embrace having more high scoring games, of which I hope in time we score more than anyone else. Lets not forget I expect a better defensive minded midfielder to come in and replace Pack (not a dig at him mind!) and this will help too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 18, 2015 Report Share Posted August 18, 2015 I find it interesting that when Cotts first came he was described as a hoofball ,negative football merchant now he's being lambasted for playing to attacking. I think the formation is fine,the problem is the players we have are to naive. An experienced Cisse type player in the middle would go along way to helping the silly mistakes. I also find it interesting that some posters state we have no plan B and only a plan A, but in the 180 minutes of Championship football I have seen this season I have seen us shift between 3 at the back and four at the back; and anywhere from 1 up top to 3 up top and the changing of personnel to support a shift in formation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobBobSuperBob Posted August 18, 2015 Report Share Posted August 18, 2015 At one point on saturday there was Williams making a run for Bryan who had the ball, he passed it to Ayling who was further forward than any midfielder. Now, I'm all for entertaining and attacking football, and our first goal was an example of that with Ayling going past two or three players and passing to Kodjia to score, but when you have two centre backs and a wing back up near the opposition goal in open play, it can be labelled gung-ho. We were left with no defence, the midfield were also up field and a turn over of possession followed by a quick ball could very easily have resulted in a goal conceded in that instance. But its fair to say that we should have had two or three before they scored, so its a balancing act which they have to get right. I'm no coach but it seems to me that when Ayling goes on his runs, Williams has to stay back with a covering midfielder (Pack preferably) dropping back and keeping shape. That didn't happen saturday, the team were open and naive with no one on the pitch to sort it out. I'm sure SC will put it right and, when he does, we'll be picking up points against most teams in this division. Spot on - if Ayling goes the other two should stay put and either a midfielder or RWB should cover for Ayling either by dropping into a three or dependent on where opposition players are at that time sometimes with the two CBS being shielded by def m/f ( in a tight triangle effectively ) We got away with it (not always) last year with Ayling and Little / Tavs bombing down the right at same time last year - also cost us a few goals At this level that naivety (albeit exciting 'entertainment') will cost us more goals and points Less worried defensively about Bryan & Williams on left side tho personally I'd like to see a step up by Williams or consider competition for his spot At this level that naivety would cost us more goals and points Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 18, 2015 Report Share Posted August 18, 2015 ( was thinking who'd play rhs of midfield - Agard is the only one I can think of (and not sure about him there) Mr Wagstaff, our very own Mr 7 outta 10 - and I mean that as a big compliment, not a dig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobBobSuperBob Posted August 18, 2015 Report Share Posted August 18, 2015 Mr Wagstaff, our very own Mr 7 outta 10 - and I mean that as a big compliment, not a dig. A fair shout 29a and Im a bit of a fellow appreciator of Waggy Just can't see Cotts giving him that starting spot but he may have just suffered (selection wise) because of the system we've so successfully used Never let's us down but not sure the majority would see us moving forward with Waggy a regular starter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sodburyred Posted August 18, 2015 Report Share Posted August 18, 2015 This is my exact point and for the people saying a holding midfielder will change that are wrong, at times we only have 1/2 at the back and Brentford were breaking with 4,5,6 men on Saturday. Now whether you have 10 or 11 men you are going to be picked off. This season and the majority of last year it's like we must score 3 or 4 to win the match. Not just a holding midfielder but a leader, to stop the defenders from being so naive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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