Esmond Million's Bung Posted September 16, 2015 Report Share Posted September 16, 2015 Interested in views on the tackle on Luke Shaw last night that caused the horrific double fractured to him.For me it was a definite red card, yes Moreno won the ball but his left leg was well off of the ground on his follow through and there is no way that anybody could claim he was ever in control in that tackle, how in 2015 a referee never punished that tackle is beyond me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bs4Red Posted September 16, 2015 Report Share Posted September 16, 2015 Totally agree and that tackle (scissor tackle) is one of the most debated in football at the moment. The original leg is fine. It's the one that follows. Personally I think tough for the ref to see in full speed as it looks like the ball has been won cleanly but in slow mo it looks absolutely terrible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Posted September 16, 2015 Report Share Posted September 16, 2015 Agree with Howard Webb for me wasn't a red card. Good luck to him though, he was just starting to show his form from his Southampton days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lack of Action Man Posted September 16, 2015 Report Share Posted September 16, 2015 As an amateur referee myself the mandate I've been given when adjudicating sliding tackles is :A) was there an excessive use of force to win possession?B) did the challenge endanger the safety of the opposition?The key point we are being educated on is that the word "intent" is being phased out of the game. 90% of challenges made carry no conscious intent to harm the opposition. however that doesn't mean that the challenge does not endanger the safety and wellbeing of the opponent, if excessive force has been used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipdawg Posted September 16, 2015 Report Share Posted September 16, 2015 Was a shocker for me, given that no action was taken by the ref I'm surprised that UEFA aren't retrospectively taking action. It wasn't malicious mind, just incredibly reckless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Orns Posted September 16, 2015 Report Share Posted September 16, 2015 I've only seen it once, but it didn't look like a bad tackle to me at allDone some serious damage to Shaw though, watched England last week and the Utd-Pool game at the weekend and thought he was starting to show what he could do. Shocker for him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted September 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2015 As an amateur referee myself the mandate I've been given when adjudicating sliding tackles is :A) was there an excessive use of force to win possession?B) did the challenge endanger the safety of the opposition?The key point we are being educated on is that the word "intent" is being phased out of the game. 90% of challenges made carry no conscious intent to harm the opposition. however that doesn't mean that the challenge does not endanger the safety and wellbeing of the opponent, if excessive force has been used.I thought there was also a lot of consideration to being in control of the tackle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted September 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2015 Agree with Howard Webb for me wasn't a red card. Good luck to him though, he was just starting to show his form from his Southampton days.The same Howard Webb responsible for this mess?.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abPX4EDY4hw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tall King Blox Posted September 16, 2015 Report Share Posted September 16, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
And Its Smith Posted September 16, 2015 Report Share Posted September 16, 2015 As an amateur referee myself the mandate I've been given when adjudicating sliding tackles is :A) was there an excessive use of force to win possession?B) did the challenge endanger the safety of the opposition?The key point we are being educated on is that the word "intent" is being phased out of the game. 90% of challenges made carry no conscious intent to harm the opposition. however that doesn't mean that the challenge does not endanger the safety and wellbeing of the opponent, if excessive force has been used.so, should it have been a red card? I've not seen it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big C Posted September 16, 2015 Report Share Posted September 16, 2015 so, should it have been a red card? I've not seen it To be honest I've seen it several times and I still couldn't tell you so I would have to give the benefit to Moreno and say no. Who'd be a referee? I think watching things in slow motion can distort things though just ask Ben Stokes last week!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Orns Posted September 16, 2015 Report Share Posted September 16, 2015 Still doesn't look like a leg breaker to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Posted September 16, 2015 Report Share Posted September 16, 2015 The same Howard Webb responsible for this mess?.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abPX4EDY4hwProb the first time I have agreed with him mind! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron-Bcfc Posted September 16, 2015 Report Share Posted September 16, 2015 I didn't think there was a lot wrong with it. If Shaw doesn't get injured there then it's hailed as a great tackle and no more is said of it. At the time no Man Utd players appealed for a penalty. Just an unfortunate incident in my opinion and a real shame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kibs Posted September 16, 2015 Report Share Posted September 16, 2015 Still doesn't look like a leg breaker to meAgree Woodsy, Shaw is incredibly unlucky to come out of that with such a serious injury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lack of Action Man Posted September 16, 2015 Report Share Posted September 16, 2015 so, should it have been a red card? I've not seen it Alas, this is still very much the issue. Is it right to send someone off for what is a forceful but not intentionally violent challenge? Red cards change and can possibly ruin games. For example Freeman v Brentford. Under the training I've had since that match, I can see why he was sent off - the challenge carried a high risk of endangering the safety of an opposition player. However I also completely appreciate the argument that says he had no intention to harm their player, it was just unfortunate. As I said though intent as a concept is being phased out of the laws of the game, so for me it should have been a red. If a player is being stretchered off with a broken leg and being treated by both medical teams from either club, then for the referee to fail to award even a foul (despite the on field location) is a travesty. The tackle used excessive force for minimal gain - that's a foul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRL Posted September 16, 2015 Report Share Posted September 16, 2015 Bad ending for shaw but if we stop this type of tackle we may as well to stop football. He won it he was slightly in the air his sole aim was for the ball. Sorry football is a semi contact sport played at an increasingly higher pace. Accidents happen this was a accident for me. You could maybe suggest a yellow card at most... Red definitely not. There are far worse things that go on on a football field than this, they just do not often end up in an unfortunate break. The guy who hit him had a similar injury recently, I doubt for one minute he thought this challenge would put a opposition player in a similar boat as him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One Team In Keynsham Posted September 16, 2015 Report Share Posted September 16, 2015 As an amateur referee myself the mandate I've been given when adjudicating sliding tackles is :A) was there an excessive use of force to win possession?B) did the challenge endanger the safety of the opposition?The key point we are being educated on is that the word "intent" is being phased out of the game. 90% of challenges made carry no conscious intent to harm the opposition. however that doesn't mean that the challenge does not endanger the safety and wellbeing of the opponent, if excessive force has been used.I didn't know that the concept of intent was being removed from such decisions, and it makes sense really. Hopefully someone will brief the battalions of f-wit ex-pro pundits on the same.I must confess I have not seen the tackle, but will it get featured alongside Joe Theismann in the next DVD of 101 great sporting fractures? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One Team In Keynsham Posted September 16, 2015 Report Share Posted September 16, 2015 Alas, this is still very much the issue. Is it right to send someone off for what is a forceful but not intentionally violent challenge? Red cards change and can possibly ruin games. For example Freeman v Brentford. Under the training I've had since that match, I can see why he was sent off - the challenge carried a high risk of endangering the safety of an opposition player. However I also completely appreciate the argument that says he had no intention to harm their player, it was just unfortunate. As I said though intent as a concept is being phased out of the laws of the game, so for me it should have been a red. If a player is being stretchered off with a broken leg and being treated by both medical teams from either club, then for the referee to fail to award even a foul (despite the on field location) is a travesty. The tackle used excessive force for minimal gain - that's a foul. If the mandate is to cover excessive force or endangerment, rather than intent, then whilst "excessive" is subjective, is it even relevant as to whether it is right or not, if the ref makes the call on a particular tackle being excessive?Off on a tangent, what mandates or guidelines are you given, if any, about whether you should consider a yellow, not a red, if the offence happens early in a game? Personally I think the timing of an offence should have no bearing on whether it is a warning, a caution or a dismissal, but curious to know if refs do get advised to take it easy if someone gets clattered early doors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
And Its Smith Posted September 16, 2015 Report Share Posted September 16, 2015 Alas, this is still very much the issue. Is it right to send someone off for what is a forceful but not intentionally violent challenge? Red cards change and can possibly ruin games. For example Freeman v Brentford. Under the training I've had since that match, I can see why he was sent off - the challenge carried a high risk of endangering the safety of an opposition player. However I also completely appreciate the argument that says he had no intention to harm their player, it was just unfortunate. As I said though intent as a concept is being phased out of the laws of the game, so for me it should have been a red. If a player is being stretchered off with a broken leg and being treated by both medical teams from either club, then for the referee to fail to award even a foul (despite the on field location) is a travesty. The tackle used excessive force for minimal gain - that's a foul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WithywoodRed Posted September 16, 2015 Report Share Posted September 16, 2015 Not a red for me. Unlucky for Shaw though. Looked really good so far this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoons Posted September 16, 2015 Report Share Posted September 16, 2015 never a red card. Not even a yellow for me. People getting carried away because Shaw broke his leg. Just imagine watching that tackle again and Shaw getting up and running off? Also super slow motion makes it look worse than it is. For me it was a hard tackle with no malicious intent from Moreno. But harsh for Shaw as looked a different player this year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted September 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2015 Very interesting the differing views, although there was definitely no malice for me given now that a foul can given these days for less than minimal contact and a player can deliberately run into an opposing player who is just standing still and it be called a foul, I was of the opinion that even if you initially take the ball but your follow through takes the player out then it is a foul, to me there still seems to be a lot of grey area here.The saddest thing of all really is Shaw looks probably like the most improved player in the England squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS4 on Tour... Posted September 16, 2015 Report Share Posted September 16, 2015 At normal speed it looks like an ok tackle, refs and linesmen/women are only human and can't be expected to spot stuff that we've subsequently seen on You Tube.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCFC Jimmer Posted September 16, 2015 Report Share Posted September 16, 2015 The jury was still out on whether he was good enough for United and England in my opinion. Will end up at Sunderland at some point I expect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipdawg Posted September 16, 2015 Report Share Posted September 16, 2015 The jury was still out on whether he was good enough for United and England in my opinion. Will end up at Sunderland at some point I expect. Kick a man when he's down why don't you?! I disagree too- he's 20 years old, has all the tools to be a top player and is in a good place to learn. Hope this injury doesn't set him back too far Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welcome To The Jungle Posted September 16, 2015 Report Share Posted September 16, 2015 Honestly for me it is not a red card. Just one of those things. Whenever you step across that white line in any sport be it football, rugby, cricket, boxing, judo, etc there is a chance you could be seriously injured. Sadly on this occasion Shaw was unlucky. Had someone at my Judo club break their leg in two places in June doing a throw I've done hundreds of times. Just got his leg stuck and cue the pain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CITYAREREDANDWHITE Posted September 16, 2015 Report Share Posted September 16, 2015 The jury was still out on whether he was good enough for United and England in my opinion. Will end up at Sunderland at some point I expect. disagree with that. He has shown already this season for both England and Man Utd that he's got over a bad season this year, and could potentially be first choice for Utd and England for 10 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terpin Posted September 17, 2015 Report Share Posted September 17, 2015 If a player is being stretchered off with a broken leg and being treated by both medical teams from either club, then for the referee to fail to award even a foul (despite the on field location) is a travesty.You've spoken a lot of sense in this thread but this comment is just plain wrong.Along with your comments in regards to intent being phase out (it has not been there in the 16 years I've been qualified) the result of a tackle like this should have no input on how the referee deals with it.There are very few situations where the referee can use the outcome of an alleged offense to offer some insight - predominately the use of an elbow but in a tackle like this it should not be taken into consideration. Do you feel the referee should wait to see the level of required treatment before deciding on punishment?For what it's worth my opinion is that it is a fair tackle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terpin Posted September 17, 2015 Report Share Posted September 17, 2015 Off on a tangent, what mandates or guidelines are you given, if any, about whether you should consider a yellow, not a red, if the offence happens early in a game? Personally I think the timing of an offence should have no bearing on whether it is a warning, a caution or a dismissal, but curious to know if refs do get advised to take it easy if someone gets clattered early doors.No mandates on when an offense occurs. Some offenses are a yellow/red no matter what time they occur.On more less clear cautions/sending offs "Game management" is the key. Different matches require different levels tolerance levels. Local derbies, past history between teams etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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