Academy Issues

[Devereux]

I see we lost 4-0 in the youth cup last night. Pretty comprehensive! 

I don't know if I am the only one but I am concerned at the performances of our academy. I cannot remember a decent run of results for the U21s or the U18s for a long long time (or even a decent youth cup run). In the main we are competing against sides in our league (Cardiff). We have made lots of changes to the academy in personnel, facilities and funding and yet nothing seems to have changed.

Some might say that results don't matter at that age, I think that's rubbish. Most top young players have come from either successful youth team (fergies fledglings) or from an outstanding personal youth career. 

We have a huge football area in Bristol and its fringes. The only thing that springs to mind is the whole catchment area debate. I seem to remember there being an article in the post saying that our catchment area had shrunk dramatically in recent years whilst we were in League 1 and that Swansea have even opened up an academy on the outskirts of Bristol!!

Now I am not a doom and gloom merchant and I love the fact that we have produced Joe and Bobby etc recently, and Frankie seems to like the two young keepers we have. Id just like to see the winning mentality of the club start at the bottom and see us win a few more games!

Of course if the shrinking catchment area is the problem I am not sure what we can do about that.

[Cowshed]

Cardiff, Southampton, Swansea and WBA have development centres / academy involvement in the Bristol area.

Some might say that results don't matter at that age ... They do not. It should be about developing the players City have v shedding squads each season, recruiting new squads based on short term results. Bristol City's academy does beat Southamptons, Southampton is the academy that has a reputation for nurturing the finest young players in the UK. Those wins lack meaning. City could field an XI of the biggest, fastest, most physical v an XI of small technically gifted and win, so what!?.

What is important is that City provide a platform for players to develop technique v strength. That is the base of modern football, and should be for BCFC.

[Devereux]

why do they have to be bigger, faster and more physical to beat them? That is only one facet of the game.

I don't buy into this "results don't matter", I think you need to do both, develop players technically and physically (with the right balance), but also educate them on tactics on how to win games against different types of teams. Decision-making on the pitch and looking to win games against a team that is quick v big, plays 4-3-3 vs 4-4-2 etc etc... Our players need to learn how to adapt themselves and their games to win matches technically, mentally and physically.

There should be a feeling right the way through the club that when you pull on a city shirt it is an honour to wear it and that the mantra is always to look to win.

That mantra doesn't have to be at the expense of player development.

[Ivorguy]

Am I right in thinking Bournemouth fans warned us against the two youth  coaches we acquired from them earlier this season?

Anyone else remember?

 

[Phileas Fogg]

1 minute ago, Ivorguy said:

Am I right in thinking Bournemouth fans warned us against the two youth  coaches we acquired from them earlier this season?

Anyone else remember?

 

I'd be surprised if their presence was making any tangible difference to results yet. Academy results take time to get right. 

[Cowshed]

Devereux you should not place such emphasis on the academy winning its matches. Forest Green's academy are handing pro clubs their arse now and again and? So what.

What is important is that the academy produces well rounded technical players like you have indicated. This will not happen if a win at all costs mentality is adopted because it is too easy to go down the bigger, faster, stronger route to get those not so vital wins.

[phantom]

To me the academy can only be judged on one thing . . . how many players make our first team from them

Otherwise it's a financial disaster

[RedM]

Just a side comment to this, people often quote Southampton etc to be the clubs mopping up all the top talent, but I've been told recently they reject kids very quickly too. Someone I know is a staunch Gashead, his son aged aged about 7 has been approached by several big clubs including Southampton. He looked into the possibility of him going there and found they might take on over 100 youngsters and within a year the number is cut to around 10. That's a very high rejection rate I would think? I guess many clubs like ours could then pick these lads up.

My friend decided against this purely for this reason, many other parents must feel the same. My friend has his son playing for the Gas youngsters at the moment (yes I know but the lure of the home club is also a strong pull) his attitude is that if his son is good enough (and it's thought he is) he has plenty of time to be spotted, and yes we (BCFC) did approach him.

[Cowshed]

Red M at seven a child cannot join an academy.

"He looked into the possibility of him going there and found they might take on over 100 youngsters and within a year the number is cut to around 10. That's a very high rejection rate I would think?"

If that refers to kids joining Southampton's development centre in Bath then onto its academy that number is very high acceptance rate. Clubs like WBA coach hundreds in Gloucester and take on less long term.

[RedM]

I'm just getting this info second hand @cowshed. I don't know exactly how old the lad is, I'm thinking 7 ish, might even  be slightly younger. All I know is a few clubs were alerted to look at him, and that was the reaction from his parents when deciding who to send him to. 

[daored]

31 minutes ago, phantom said:

To me the academy can only be judged on one thing . . . how many players make our first team from them

Otherwise it's a financial disaster

100% agree, the purpose of our academy is to produce players for our first team. Clearly we have / had some talented players in our academy as evidenced by clubs like Chelsea / Liverpool bring linked with our players.

For me personally we don't seem to produce players who make it into our first team. Whilst Joe, Bobby and Wes are regularly in the squad I think three players is rather low. The way to attract good young players is to show them their is a path to god first team 

[wayne allisons tongues]

My boy who is now 16, was approached by Bolton Aged 9. Was told he could train once a week with them and then play a game Saturday if selected.

Only catch was you didn't know if you were playing till Friday evening and if you did one training session with them and were then released they had a 2 year clause saying no other club can approach you.

I asked if this was normal and was told this is how the system works, they pick up the best youngsters and then have them for 2 years to see if they improved, or just discarded them after a few weeks. It stopped other clubs being able to have them and train them.

i didn't let him train for you weren't allowed to play Saturday or Sunday for your local team and he knew kids who weren't playing football and just twiddling there thumbs on weekends.

Don't know if that's how the system is now, but found it quite ruthless and loads of children were heartbroken when being dumped aged 9 and 10 by clubs and never played again. But I guess that's how clubs cherry pick the best players.

[RedRock]

I'm old school, never bought into this leftie 'winning doesn't matter' nonsense.

The Academy has had decades of this philosophy and it has served only to strengthen my belief that those in the AshtonYate (RIP) camp are correct. On virtually any measure the Academy has been a disaster. We would have been far better investing the millions in a decent scouting system that would have delivered far more first team talent.

I'd always put my money on a team of winners and fighters who have a dose of natural talent and athleticism playing a load of pampered show ponies who play tippy-tappy possession football. 

Cotterill's post Sheffield Utd defeat 'I'm a winner' statement was music to my ears. 

[djb6162]

4 minutes ago, wayne allisons tongues said:

My boy who is now 16, was approached by Bolton Aged 9. Was told he could train once a week with them and then play a game Saturday if selected.

Only catch was you didn't know if you were playing till Friday evening and if you did one training session with them and were then released they had a 2 year clause saying no other club can approach you.

I asked if this was normal and was told this is how the system works, they pick up the best youngsters and then have them for 2 years to see if they improved, or just discarded them after a few weeks. It stopped other clubs being able to have them and train them.

i didn't let him train for you weren't allowed to play Saturday or Sunday for your local team and he knew kids who weren't playing football and just twiddling there thumbs on weekends.

Don't know if that's how the system is now, but found it quite ruthless and loads of children were heartbroken when being dumped aged 9 and 10 by clubs and never played again. But I guess that's how clubs cherry pick the best players.

sounds both unfair and in my opinion not enforceable.

this is not how academies are generally run.

 

So first things first

the youngest age groups are U8 and it is not uncommon for players to be registered to a development offshoot of a clubs official academy, even at 7 years of age.

So Red Ms case in point is not out of the question.

It is true that once a player has officially been signed into an academy (not the development squads) they cannot continue to play local league (school teams allowed but not always encouraged unfortunately)

To be fair to academies, their players are fully insured from the moment they sign on, and as such would not be covered if playing local league, so understandable that this is discouraged.

Additionally coaches cannot be held accountable for rest periods and recuperation, if their players are not controlled in this way.

Most academies have training twice in the week (always evenings) and have matches generally on a Sunday morning up to the age of 16.

Most of these players can be released fairly immediately if they are not deemed to be up to standard at any stage in the U8 to U16 period.

By January of the final youth year (u16) players will normally have been offered a scholarship (2 years) or will be released.

Those two years will generally lead to a first professional contract or a release... but in the case of release....not til the end of the scholarship for obvious reasons.

The clubs do not have any further restrictive covenants or hold on any players they release no matter what they might say.

If a player chooses to leave... then that is different as the club holds their registration. Thats a bit onerous, but equally understandable.

I would encourage released players to always obtain and fill out and have countersigned (by the academy director) the relevant player release form, which gets lodged with the FA fort obvious reasons.

[BCFC_Dan]

Winning matches may not be the most important thing for an Academy team but it's pretty important to produce players with a winning mentality and experience of it.

Our Academy has a pretty good track record when it comes to producing technically gifted players who lack the drive and application to make it. Players like Tristan Plummer who can do loads of keepy-uppies and make other 17 year olds look silly with tricks and flicks, but put them up against adult footballers and they get flattened.

If you constantly tell the kids that results don't matter and it's all about the skills then you won't end up with Barcelona's midfield, you'll end up with a bunch of talented losers who will quickly drop through non-league and end up doing normal jobs, making their colleagues look silly at 5-a-side once a week.

[alexukhc]

Like the post above states, we've had so many technically given academy players Tristan Plummer looked emmense as a youngster, Marvin Brown even better, over the years Kevin Langan looked the next Shaun Taylor. What about goalkeepers? We had an awesome Scott Brown, who is now at Aberdeen though I think we got him from Wolves,  but long before that our only pro academy keeper was Wayne Brown, ex Colchester number one. People talk about ones we let go like the Ronaldo Aarons, but at the time wasn't deemed good enough, Bradley Ash now on trial at Birmingham from Weston Super Mare, like learning we are learn at different ages it's the same with development or having that drive to succeed, most our youngsters get released and don't do anything after, is it the City way? I don't know the City way but every youngster isn't Cole Skuse, Louis Carey or even Joe Bryan. Losing Dave Burnside, Dave Bell and Tony Fawthrop was the worst thing that happened to the academy 

[Cowshed]

BCFC - Dan

"If you constantly tell the kids that results don't matter and it's all about the skills then you won't end up with Barcelona's midfield",

Don't confuse development with not caring at all about results. Barcelonas academy [La Masia] is based upon a play first win later bottom up model.

If you constantly tell the kids that all that matters is results, it's not about developing skills Iniesta and Xavi go out of the door for being dwarves.

[Shtanley]

Speaking to someone who used to heavily involved with the team, I was amazed to hear that GJ refused to use any academy players like Artus et al because he wanted his brother and head of youth academy. We've been producing good young players unfortunately many have gone to the big clubs Aarons, Maddox, Kane. We've got some players coming through I'm sure we'll all see Kelly, Dowling and Andrews in and around the first team in the next few years. 

[Phileas Fogg]

1 hour ago, Moor2Sea said:

I'm old school, never bought into this leftie 'winning doesn't matter' nonsense.

The Academy has had decades of this philosophy and it has served only to strengthen my belief that those in the AshtonYate (RIP) camp are correct. On virtually any measure the Academy has been a disaster. We would have been far better investing the millions in a decent scouting system that would have delivered far more first team talent.

I'd always put my money on a team of winners and fighters who have a dose of natural talent and athleticism playing a load of pampered show ponies who play tippy-tappy possession football. 

Cotterill's post Sheffield Utd defeat 'I'm a winner' statement was music to my ears. 

And that ideology is arguably why the England team has underachieved horrible over the last 50 years. With the correct implementation and balance "show ponies" playing "tippy tappy" possession football can produce the best football teams that press the whole pitch and don't let their opposition have a sniff. Correct implementation being the crux of that working or failing.

I doubt our academy disregard winning, not sure where that opinion has come from. We just haven't been that successful - the most probable reason for that is poor coaching and recruitment rather than a "left wing" philosophy about not winning.

[Devereux]

I agree 100% that the academy is there to produce players for the first team and that is its main mission in life, but I still think a winning mentality needs to be part of the equation. 

I am not advocating "win at all costs" as others on here are not advocating "results don't matter" - I think it needs to be a careful balance between development and results. You don't want kids not caring that they have lost and equally you don't want kids to not care about technical development. 

We should develop their technique, physicality, decision-making, attitude, knowledge of the game/tactics, how to win a game and how to lose a game (i.e. play to the end never give up).

Its just a little alarming that both the U21 and the U18 lose alot of games.

[BobBobSuperBob]

30 minutes ago, BCFC_Dan said:

Winning matches may not be the most important thing for an Academy team but it's pretty important to produce players with a winning mentality and experience of it.

Our Academy has a pretty good track record when it comes to producing technically gifted players who lack the drive and application to make it. Players like Tristan Plummer who can do loads of keepy-uppies and make other 17 year olds look silly with tricks and flicks, but put them up against adult footballers and they get flattened.

If you constantly tell the kids that results don't matter and it's all about the skills then you won't end up with Barcelona's midfield, you'll end up with a bunch of talented losers who will quickly drop through non-league and end up doing normal jobs, making their colleagues look silly at 5-a-side once a week.

Spot on - I have some very direct knowledge of the schoolboy - apprentice / YTS ...... System at City going back to 80s / 90s

I won't go into who why what but the club went down a route where those in charge do exactly what you so astutely say - produce players who can do Cruyff Turns in their sleep 

I'll keep my view simple  as I'm totally on your frequency - There is no point in being able to do a Cruyff turn if you don't know when and where you should be utilising it, where you should be on the pitch at any given time , how to be part of / be a cog in a successful TEAM , game control, game management etc

There is obviously an age band where you should not fill boys heads with too much but develop their skills and love of the game but IMO the transiston into turning them in to a footballer, that can use their skills as part of a team and all that entails, too late in this country (Imstand to be corrected by those with a up,to date close knowledge)

We are fortunate that there are a few posters DJB and several others who have a extremely good current knowledge of the set up and any pros and cons so they may correct me !

[alexukhc]

Weren't we one of the first club to have an academy in this country? 

[BCFC_Dan]

15 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Don't confuse development with not caring at all about results. Barcelonas academy [La Masia] is based upon a play first win later bottom up model.
 

Ours seems to have forgotten the "win later" part.

I'm not saying we should tell them results are everything and only pick the biggest kids any more than you're saying winning doesn't matter at all. I'm pointing out that our Academy hasn't been too bad at the technical development side but bloody terrible at the winning part. Both are needed.

[BRISTOL86]

I've never watched any City side other than the first team but a colleague was there and told me that it was like watching a premier league team against non-league - and he was trying to be kind. 

Said it was an absolutely enormous gulf in quality. 

[phantom]

23 minutes ago, Shtanley said:

Speaking to someone who used to heavily involved with the team, I was amazed to hear that GJ refused to use any academy players like Artus et al because he wanted his brother and head of youth academy. 

Confused by what you have said there. It reads as if GJ didn't use academy players as he wanted his brother to be head of the youth academy ?

How does not using players get his brother into that position? Surely as manager he had the final say anyway?

 

One thing I have found interesting this season is how on a number of occasions we have had a subs bench not full, in the past we've heard that a youth player was taken as part of the matchday squad to gain experience of it - are we to assume that Cotts therefore has no interest in bringing anything from the academy through?

[Ashton98]

We lose a lot of under 21 games because we play a lot of younger players in the games so they got used to playing a higher level early on and playing them players for the under 21 will games means are under 18 team isn't as strong. we could easily play have are under 21 team full of 20 years with not a lot of potential but will most games but that will be pointless as an academy purpose is all about developing young players for the first team .

[phantom]

4 minutes ago, Ashton98 said:

We lose a lot of under 21 games because we play a lot of younger players in the games so they got used to playing a higher level early on and playing them players for the under 21 will games means are under 18 team isn't as strong. we could easily play have are under 21 team full of 20 years with not a lot of potential but will most games but that will be pointless as an academy purpose is all about developing young players for the first team .

So why are we the only side doing this?

Surely everyone is in the same position?

[BobBobSuperBob]

9 minutes ago, Ashton98 said:

We lose a lot of under 21 games because we play a lot of younger players in the games so they got used to playing a higher level early on and playing them players for the under 21 will games means are under 18 team isn't as strong. we could easily play have are under 21 team full of 20 years with not a lot of potential but will most games but that will be pointless as an academy purpose is all about developing young players for the first team .

Surely we don't do that in the FA Youth Cup do we- was always a time to field the strongest side you could 

[Ashton98]

Quote

8 minutes ago, Ashton98 said:

4 minutes ago, phantom said:

So why are we the only side doing this?

Surely everyone is in the same position?

No a lot of teams are happy to use their under 21 as a chance to get some of their players who dont get a game first team football, which means that their younger players will have less chance of playing for the under 21 and playing the under 18s

 

 

[Nogbad the Bad]

6 minutes ago, Ashton98 said:

We lose a lot of under 21 games because we play a lot of younger players in the games so they got used to playing a higher level early on and playing them players for the under 21 will games means are under 18 team isn't as strong. we could easily play have are under 21 team full of 20 years with not a lot of potential but will most games but that will be pointless as an academy purpose is all about developing young players for the first team .

Whose idea was this?

Any reasoning behind this is clearly flawed if they lose so often - it must be soul destroying for the youngsters.