Wes Burns sub and things.

[screech]

Anybody understand the thinking of why he bothered to get him on the pitch, he should have been on for Kodjia who is/was woeful in front of goal at about 70 minutes when he had been given enough chances to finish two games off. We had Cox on the bench too who hasn't been given a chance to see if he can score a better ratio of 1 in about 15 chances, although I don't blame Cotterill for our inability to win today, he has to take some criticism for this ridiculous substitution policy he has. Burns would have been the obvious choice to have a run at Charltons shaky defence today, especially when all they had left to salvage something was a longer ball, the game was stretched and Burns pace could have expoited this.

Another thinkg about Kodjia, although exciting to watch at times, is no JET in front of goal, and to think we paid £2m for him and we had JET already here, and that penalty.....

[GrahamC]

Not a clue.

If he wasn't on by the 80th minute once they had equalised it made no sense at all for him to come on in the 93rd.

[t_b]

1 hour ago, screech said:

Another thinkg about Kodjia, although exciting to watch at times, is no JET in front of goal, and to think we paid £2m for him and we had JET already here, and that penalty.....

I know this isn't the "done" opinion but I still don't get the JET love. A completely selfish player on the pitch who had one 'skill' and approach to scoring.

As a comparative; JET this season has 5 league starts & came on 6 times and has scored 3 (0.27 goals per game). 

Kodja has scored 9 in 22 (0.4 a game).

In 48 appearances last season JET scored 12 (0.25 a game) ... 2 in the final 8-2 win of the season. He's not a prolific scorer and inevitably would have wanted a lot more cash than Kodja will be on per week for his "talents".

[Super]

I like Kodjia but he can be terrible in front of goal at times. You have to think Gray or Gayle would have double what he has scored if they were in this team.

[samo II]

2 minutes ago, Super said:

I like Kodjia but he can be terrible in front of goal at times. You have to think Gray or Gayle would have double what he has scored if they were in this team.

My thinking too.

People were ridiculing the club for trying to bring in a proven striker to add to the squad, but when you look at Andre Gray's figures of 10 goals and some assists in 17 matches, which is a third of their tally and has helped them to 5th, it's pretty clear our priorities where right.

Shocking, depressing and damaging result for us today, but with another one or two central midfielders (as let's get serious; only Smith has a long-term future at this level) and at least one more striker, then we may have a chance to stay up.

Only a chance though; we've hobbled ourselves so far - need to improve significantly next half of the season or we're going to have a very big stadium for League One.

[screech]

15 minutes ago, tommy_b said:

I know this isn't the "done" opinion but I still don't get the JET love. A completely selfish player on the pitch who had one 'skill' and approach to scoring.

As a comparative; JET this season has 5 league starts & came on 6 times and has scored 3 (0.27 goals per game). 

Kodja has scored 9 in 22 (0.4 a game).

In 48 appearances last season JET scored 12 (0.25 a game) ... 2 in the final 8-2 win of the season. He's not a prolific scorer and inevitably would have wanted a lot more cash than Kodja will be on per week for his "talents".

It's more of a nod towards his composure in front of goal, JK does seem to lose his head when in good goal scoring positions and snaps at shots.

[Red Rag]

Kodja does have great ability, but at times his finishing is atrocious especially his heading ability which at times looks no better than Sunday league standard. A few good sessions on the training pitch could be the answer.

[stephenkibby.]

Maybe the pressure of being the only player in the side likely to score has got to Kodja?

[Youngish]

1 hour ago, tommy_b said:

I know this isn't the "done" opinion but I still don't get the JET love. A completely selfish player on the pitch who had one 'skill' and approach to scoring.

As a comparative; JET this season has 5 league starts & came on 6 times and has scored 3 (0.27 goals per game). 

Kodja has scored 9 in 22 (0.4 a game).

In 48 appearances last season JET scored 12 (0.25 a game) ... 2 in the final 8-2 win of the season. He's not a prolific scorer and inevitably would have wanted a lot more cash than Kodja will be on per week for his "talents".

Almost all of JET's appearances last season were as a sub. His goals to minutes ratio was far better than Agard's and Wilbraham's. And he wasn't selfish at all, he chipped in with plenty assists and more often than not passed in positions where I'd have rather have seen a JET piledriver!

[REDOXO]

1 hour ago, tommy_b said:

I know this isn't the "done" opinion but I still don't get the JET love. A completely selfish player on the pitch who had one 'skill' and approach to scoring.

As a comparative; JET this season has 5 league starts & came on 6 times and has scored 3 (0.27 goals per game). 

Kodja has scored 9 in 22 (0.4 a game).

In 48 appearances last season JET scored 12 (0.25 a game) ... 2 in the final 8-2 win of the season. He's not a prolific scorer and inevitably would have wanted a lot more cash than Kodja will be on per week for his "talents".

JET scored 24 in 82 appearances plus added many assists particularly for Matt Smith among others, despite his sparing use he was integral to keeping us up one season and getting us up in another  

JET was happy to stay but was not offered a new contract and to be frank the club thought they could get better. They were clearly wrong. Do you think that the club don't regret that now?

anyway what's done is done!

[Dr Balls]

Bad decision to let good players go who were proven at Championship level (include Cunningham in this, plus not keeping Wade Elliot as a player, and not looking to recruit Tavernier) before getting at least equivalent replacements. Much of our failure this season starts with poor choices made at the back end of last season.

You have to assume that following the euphoria of last season that even the club just presumed new & better players would be recruited as part of our upwards trajectory. How naive!

[REDOXO]

13 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

Bad decision to let good players go who were proven at Championship level (include Cunningham in this, plus not keeping Wade Elliot as a player, and not looking to recruit Tavernier) before getting at least equivalent replacements. Much of our failure this season starts with poor choices made at the back end of last season.

You have to assume that following the euphoria of last season that even the club just presumed new & better players would be recruited as part of our upwards trajectory. How naive!

Spot on doc!

Just to give a nod toward the thread title. Wes is five feet eight inches or there about. He is not a replacement when we are defending a one goal lead in the final ten as he has discernible stature at set pieces which is why Wilbo stays on when knackered.  JET on the other hand is huge and would be in SC thoughts if he was available!

Only we could f U.K. It up this badly, but it is what it is now!

[Frenchay Red]

5 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

Spot on doc!

Just to give a nod toward the thread title. Wes is five feet eight inches or there about. He is not a replacement when we are defending a one goal lead in the final ten as he has discernible stature at set pieces which is why Wilbo stays on when knackered.  JET on the other hand is huge and would be in SC thoughts if he was available!

Only we could f U.K. It up this badly, but it is what it is now!

I would have thought that he is a bit taller than that, but like Joe Bryan he can get up high and  is a good header of the ball. IMO he should have replaced Kodjia for the final 15 mins or so.

[REDOXO]

9 minutes ago, Frenchay Red said:

I would have thought that he is a bit taller than that, but like Joe Bryan he can get up high and  is a good header of the ball. IMO he should have replaced Kodjia for the final 15 mins or so.

Nope five feet eight. Just checked. 

I don't disagree but that is SCs reasoning he has implied it a hundred times. 

Wes is going to find it difficult to make it at City with that reasoning but you only have to look around to see talent appears to be getting bigger and taller. 

Codge is now our pace guy and unless he and Agard are unfit Wes might as well get used to playing in the stiffs and move on. Breaks my heart but I don't see where he will ever play under SC. 

[djb6162]

25 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

Spot on doc!

Just to give a nod toward the thread title. Wes is five feet eight inches or there about. He is not a replacement when we are defending a one goal lead in the final ten as he has discernible stature at set pieces which is why Wilbo stays on when knackered.  JET on the other hand is huge and would be in SC thoughts if he was available!

Only we could f U.K. It up this badly, but it is what it is now!

Wes is is 5 foot 11 and a half 

at least get that bit right !!!

 

[BobBobSuperBob]

3 minutes ago, djb6162 said:

Wes is is 5 foot 11 and a half 

at least get that bit right !!!

 

And JET is no target man !!

Wes would not be expected to go on as a target man i- his pace and playing off the shoulder would have ripped that shambles of a Charlton back line to shreds in last 15 mins 

[Donkeeebles]

It always amazes me how much our forwards are selected/judged on how well they can/can't  defend. 

[djb6162]

1 minute ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

And JET is no target man !!

Wes would not be expected to go on as a target man i- his pace and playing off the shoulder would have ripped that shambles of a Charlton back line to shreds in last 15 mins 

Correct, the fastest player in the team by some distance, amd this lot want him defending corners

i give up, and i guess so as wes !!!

 

 

[YorkshireSection]

2 hours ago, tommy_b said:

I know this isn't the "done" opinion but I still don't get the JET love. A completely selfish player on the pitch who had one 'skill' and approach to scoring.

As a comparative; JET this season has 5 league starts & came on 6 times and has scored 3 (0.27 goals per game). 

Kodja has scored 9 in 22 (0.4 a game).

In 48 appearances last season JET scored 12 (0.25 a game) ... 2 in the final 8-2 win of the season. He's not a prolific scorer and inevitably would have wanted a lot more cash than Kodja will be on per week for his "talents".

And the season before where his goals kept use up.....

[BobBobSuperBob]

7 minutes ago, djb6162 said:

Correct, the fastest player in the team by some distance, amd this lot want him defending corners

i give up, and i guess so as wes !!!

 

 

I won't embroil you in a difficult / sensitive conversation djb but this is my fear 

I'd be sat there thinking when am I ever going to be trusted to do a job

In addition to flog the front two for 90+ mins when we have a tough away coming up on Monday is strange

I can't believe that Wilbs will be ready to go again at full throttle so what the managers plan is we can only wait and see !!!!!

With KA out I can only assume Wes might be in with half a chance at Burnley !

[YorkshireSection]

23 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

Nope five feet eight. Just checked. 

I don't disagree but that is SCs reasoning he has implied it a hundred times. 

Wes is going to find it difficult to make it at City with that reasoning but you only have to look around to see talent appears to be getting bigger and taller. 

Codge is now our pace guy and unless he and Agard are unfit Wes might as well get used to playing in the stiffs and move on. Breaks my heart but I don't see where he will ever play under SC. 

I can see Agard off In January, another way out of his league in the championship IMHO.

[Dr Balls]

4 minutes ago, djb6162 said:

Correct, the fastest player in the team by some distance, amd this lot want him defending corners

i give up, and i guess so as wes !!!

 

 

Cotterill is obsessed with holding forwards but the reality is that what defenders really fear is pace.

I really don't think that it is an exaggeration to say that many if not most other successful managers with a player like Wes on the bench & 2 tiring forwards on the pitch with 20 minutes to go, would make a change to keep the opposition defenders pushed further back. In the last 10 minutes Charlton's defenders were pretty much at the centre circle the whole time as they knew Kodjia was spent & Wilbs had become so slow. All you need is a couple of balls over the top for someone of Wes's pace to run onto to push them at least 10 yards closer back to goal & suddenly that relieves a lot of the pressure.

Defence doesn't have to mean being tall & mixing it in your own penalty area, you can defend from the front, and without having to play as a holding forward with your back to the goal.

[samo II]

2 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

With KA out I can only assume Wes might with half a chance at Burnley !

It would be a fair assumption, but I'm not convinced we'll see many if any changes - which is no comment at all on Wes Burns' ability, but based off our current selection policy and squad.

We have no depth of any sort, let alone that to be going making serious changes, and even if we did most of the players we'd using then would have next to no 'live fire' experience recently.  Even ignoring the act the likes of Simon Cox and Robinson seem to be completely off the radar as options (and again; no slight on Burns, but the fact he was selected over a more experienced option for a token run out is interesting), I can't name more than maybe two or three changes I'd be confident in us making that wouldn't potentially weaken us (in theory; right now I'd be game to try anything to shake things up).

It is getting boring saying it, but it is the hangover from a completely wasted summer - asides from Kodia (who I don't doubt will improve and likely stay at this level next year, even if we don't) and the loans of Bennett and Baker (the former of which we only have till 4 Jan, so hope we're thinking about that...) it is safe to say we shot ourselves squarely in the foot with how little we recruited to cover for what is a significant absence of depth in the playing staff.

This forthcoming window is crucial; we need players in to bolster not just the overall squad and provide options, but to come into the first eleven and cover the lack of both leadership and quality we have spent half a season attempting unsuccessfully trying to cover with essentially the same team we came up with last year.

I wish that we could afford to do as we did last year and essentially circle the wagons this window; I have no stomach for the nonsense and rumours it generates.  But even then we extended the successful loan of Matt Smith, and bolstered the squad with both Saville and Tavernier, the latter of who proved important to our eventual promotion.

The squad we have is simply not good enough, and work must be done immediately to sort that out, or the next chance we have to build a Championship squad could very well be a good 18 months or more down the line.

[Red-Robbo]

I'm not going to get into the JET debate,  but Cotterill's Achilles Heel is surely his substitution policy. 

Charlton were there - rocking on their feet - both of our forwards had missed open goals and Freeman was fading - why the **** not bring on a fresh pair of legs?!

You could sense Charlton starting to edge back into the game.  Everyone knew what was coming after all those spurned chances.

Why didn’t Cotterill? ?

[Guest]

3 hours ago, samo II said:

My thinking too.

People were ridiculing the club for trying to bring in a proven striker to add to the squad, but when you look at Andre Gray's figures of 10 goals and some assists in 17 matches, which is a third of their tally and has helped them to 5th, it's pretty clear our priorities where right.

Shocking, depressing and damaging result for us today, but with another one or two central midfielders (as let's get serious; only Smith has a long-term future at this level) and at least one more striker, then we may have a chance to stay up.

Only a chance though; we've hobbled ourselves so far - need to improve significantly next half of the season or we're going to have a very big stadium for League One.

I disagree. Right player sure, wrong time. A bit like Moyes at Utd - too much time spent chasing the unattainable. 

What's worse is we have advertised our wealth, or our willingness to spend, again. If you were chief exec at a selling club you'd definitely think you could bleed over the odds because look at BCFC, offering 4x their record transfer fee 4 months ago and now looking very nervous. 

They are the sort of players we should look at, but we needed some creds at this level first. As we had none they obviously turned us down and now we've set a precedent for what we've got to throw around. Oh and as for agents, well played Lansdown in coming out with wages were not a problem. 

[samo II]

2 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

I'm not going to get into the JET debate,  but Cotterill's Achilles Heel is surely his substitution policy. 

Charlton were there - rocking on their feet - both of our forwards had missed open goals and Freeman was fading - why the **** not bring on a fresh pair of legs?!

You could sense Charlton starting to edge back into the game.  Everyone knew what was coming after all those spurned chances.

Why didn’t Cotterill? ?

The only reason I can think is is he doesn't feel the options available will help us, which raises all manner of questions about both our recruitment and/or the preparation of the first team, as in; if we don't have the options to switch-out tired players like-for-like (i.e. Wilbraham for another target man), then we need to be flexible tactically with the playing resources we DO have in order to cover for this.

We must have one of the smallest pool of players in the division to call upon (certainly in terms of those not on loan), and I am always impressed by the fitness levels of our team.  But with two games in three days, it is frankly bizarre we made no alterations of personnel until the full 90 mins was on the clock, because even the fittest of athletes will be negatively effected by that.

And let's not forget; SC has shown he's will to change things - only have to look backward to Derby to show that.  Quite what the plan was that night we may never know, but it pretty much outlined the extreme poverty of resources outside a very predictable group of 13-to-14 players he employs in the usual 352, and a lack of flexibility in said group.

Players in the door; that is what we need right now - I have faith that a number of the squad can be part of our team at this level, but not all of them, and even those that can need help and better players to play beside.  I also believe that SC can manage to keep us in this league still.  But while time is on our side in terms of games remaining, it is not in terms of the window to improve the team, and any noises from the club regards this not being a priority or something to expect, I'll be very worried indeed.

[Dr Balls]

Perhaps he needs a better perspective on the game?!

No seriously. Hear me out. The view that many of us get from the stands is far superior to what the manager can see from the side of the pitch. So maybe we are watching different games.

Top flight rugby coaches sit in the stands with monitors etc so they can really see what is going on. I know Steve Maclaren was knocked for it when he did it for a while, but I can at least understand the rationale.

And as I have posted elsewhere, fresh legs with 20 minutes to go would definitely have helped.

[REDOXO]

1 hour ago, djb6162 said:

Wes is is 5 foot 11 and a half 

at least get that bit right !!!

 

There are multiple websites that say he is five feet eight mr B. Take a look. The fact remains SC will not give him a run that is a fact despite his speed. It's not this lot/me that want him defending corners it's the bloke that's not picking him. As I said he's not getting what he's earned and won't under SC

[REDOXO]

1 hour ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

And JET is no target man !!

Wes would not be expected to go on as a target man i- his pace and playing off the shoulder would have ripped that shambles of a Charlton back line to shreds in last 15 mins 

No one said he was bur thanks for the insight

[samo II]

1 minute ago, 29AR said:

I disagree. Right player sure, wrong time. A bit like Moyes at Utd - too much time spent chasing the unattainable. 

What's worse is we have advertised our wealth, or our willingness to spend, again. If you were chief exec at a selling club you'd definitely think you could bleed over the odds because look at BCFC, offering 4x their record transfer fee 4 months ago and now looking very nervous. 

They are the sort of players we should look at, but we needed some creds at this level first. As we had none they obviously turned us down and now we've set a precedent for what we've got to throw around. 

I'm not sure; you say "wrong time" but when you look at it, we were bidding for Gray and Gayle at points where their clubs were willing to listen to (and accept) offers, and they were either unlikely to stay at their teams (Gray) or bit part players (Gayle, who has gone on to make just 10 appearances for Palace (all bar one before November, with the other early Dec for 13 mins) - we bid money, they said no; shame the media got involved, but the impact they would have had would (I at least feel) have been notable and positive for us, and most likely have us closer to the magic number of points for safety we needed.  The timing was right, as from the looks of things, those were exactly the players we needed.

Not having the cred is not really relevant if you have the money, and if the money isn't the issue, then you need back-ups/contingencies to cover this aspect (i.e. ambitions elsewhere) and follow through on the requirement.  The lack of commitment to this rather than the moves we made was the error.  Falling back on a forward line of either ageing (Wilbs) or unproven resources (Burns, Agard, Kodjia), was an oversight, and not something connected to the size of our war chest but our own prepreparedness.  Yes, those bids might have bumped prices on other options, but that's just the game.

I've little doubt we will have paid a premium on the likes of Freeman, Flint, Agard etc across the last few years relative to the level we were at, so unless we were far more naive about things than I'd like to think we were, then I'd be almost disappointed if we'd not prepared for that eventuality (i.e. players not wanting to come here, despite the money offered).  And if our frustrated objective from back then now means we have to stump up bigger money to get the players we need; then so be it - the alternative is to place faith in the squad we have, which though could be seen as laudable, I see as completely foolish at this juncture.  

Several of our players are looking to have made the step up or adapted, but other key members of last season's team have frankly disappointed, and after half the games are played this year, we need true competition and eventual replacement of several squad members, who right now play every week.  It's unfortunate, but that's football; the Peter Principle writ large in glorious technicolour.

As it stands we are 22nd in the actual league and 21st in the form table.  We average less than a league win per month, and have only one game against any team currently occupying any of the bottom eight places (Preston; 17th in the league, 15th in form) before we head to face last night's opponents in our first February.  We are in a bad position, compounded by our thin squad, and I fear that inactivity on the transfer front will see us in dire trouble.