We can be just like Norwich

[Xiled]

Blimey we're a happy bunch today!

It's 8 days since we deservedly beat the division's top team.

And when Norwich were relegated to L1 they were in a much worse financial position than us. Their core support (season ticket holders) has traditionally been higher than us but otherwise a fair comparison for our ambition now that we have 27,000 seats available.

[ernie goodthing]

The strange thing is, if you asked the question "Who is most likely to lead a football club to success? -  A lady who writes cookery books or a man who set up one of the UK's most successful fininancial companies" the obvious answer wouldn't be the correct one. 

However, I live near Ipswich and a factor not to be underestimated in the success of Ipswich and Norwich relative to their size (Ipswich pop 120,00, about the same as Gloucester)  is that they are both have one club that local press and businesses can get 100% behind without fear of upsetting half of their readers or customers.

[Jack Dawe]

1 hour ago, reddogkev said:

I don't follow, Rob, why are we a laugh?

Just because we are in the bottom 3 of the league doesn't mean we are a laugh!

Now I don't know for certain, but I'd imagine that running a professional football club in the 2nd tier of the English League is substantially more difficult than a fair few of us presume.

Norwich might be relegated this season, and could be in the same division as us next year, does this then mean they will then also be considered a 'laugh'?

The answer to this is: no.

In 88 years of league football, Norwich have spent 24 of them in the top division, and just 29 below the second/championship.

When they dropped in L1 a couple of years ago, they bounced straight back up. You have to go back to 1960 to find their previous season below the second/championship.

They have played in Europe, and won the league cup twice.

All this on crowds and income that would be attainable here given this level of consistent success (success in comparison to us. They themselves are probably frustrated they are not doing as well as Stoke or Leicester).

This is what is so frustrating for many of us. @BCFC_Dan might have some views on the fine margins that keep us from being "just like Norwich," the element of chance and the surprising contribution of bad luck as opposed to human failing in the different records of the two clubs, but I struggle to see this point of view being the significant difference.

And Norwich are just one of several similar size clubs that have out-performed us for decades. Fine margins, or gaping chasms? Fine margins that result in gaping chasms between us and them? I don't know. Maybe it is. You need a lot of the "blind optimism" @CTRed was choosing to have to think our fortunes will change much any time soon.

Maybe deluded optimism is the way to go. To contemplate the reality is too demoralising. Maybe we should be grateful we are not like Northwich, or in a league just above them, rather than bemoaning the fact that we are not like Norwich

[Jack Dawe]

21 minutes ago, Xiled said:

Blimey we're a happy bunch today!

It's 8 days since we deservedly beat the division's top team.

And when Norwich were relegated to L1 they were in a much worse financial position than us. Their core support (season ticket holders) has traditionally been higher than us but otherwise a fair comparison for our ambition now that we have 27,000 seats available.

"Their core support has been higher than us" because they have spent one season below the second tier since 1960! While we've had 25 seasons below the top two decisions in that time.

And beating Bayern Munchen in their ground beats winning the f$#&ing jp pisspot trophy no matter how many times you win the thing. And winning the league cup at Wembley beats that shite cup, by a pretty "fine margin" I would say (others might disagree). I think these things make a difference to levels of support. What would Norwich's crowds be with our record on the pitch?

Let's not over estimate their support, compared to ours. 

 

[Jack Dawe]

In 1993 Norwich finished 3rd in the first year of the Prem, qualifying for Europe. Their average gate that season? 16,154.

The year before that, in the top division, it was 13,800.

[chinapig]

Both clubs are a good bet for relegation this season. That's where the similarity starts and ends.

[Son of Fred]

2 hours ago, reddogkev said:

If having lofty ambitions, or grand plans to reach a higher level, classify us as a laughing stock to a bunch of inferior reprobates, then so be it!

We shall soon be playing in a stadium around the same capacity of Norwich...let's see how often we fill it over the following five years...my guess is on the fingers of one hand..

[Davefevs]

Just waiting for SL to run on the pitch at halftime v Brum, waving a cooking book, having swigged s bit too much sherry, grabbing the mic off of David Lloyd and taunting the fans with 'commmmmeeeee onnnnnn, let's be 'avin' you!'

He then drunkenly slurs the real reasons why we are in the mess we are, but it's so slurred that no-one really understands it and we all come on this forum interpreting it in our own ways.

[Xiled]

3 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

In 1993 Norwich finished 3rd in the first year of the Prem, qualifying for Europe. Their average gate that season? 16,154.

The year before that, in the top division, it was 13,800.

Although interesting, 1992/1993 was a different era entirely.

22,000 season ticket holders this season. As I said, there is no reason why this shouldn't be our ambition.

[Jack Dawe]

3 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Both clubs are a good bet for relegation this season. That's where the similarity starts and ends.

And Norwich fans will renew their season tickets because they have good reason to believe that Norwich will get it right again beore too long and be back in the PL, and they won't want to miss out. The record of the club, it's ability to bounce back from failure, is very good. That creates trust, faith, it creates "support." There is reason to believe there.

[Jack Dawe]

7 minutes ago, Xiled said:

Although interesting, 1992/1993 was a different era entirely.

22,000 season ticket holders this season. As I said, there is no reason why this shouldn't be our ambition.

Yes, and I think it is SL's ambition, and so it should be. But ambition alone isn't enough, unfortunately. 

[chinapig]

5 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

And Norwich fans will renew their season tickets because they have good reason to believe that Norwich will get it right again beore too long and be back in the PL, and they won't want to miss out. The record of the club, it's ability to bounce back from failure, is very good. That creates trust, faith, it creates "support." There is reason to believe there.

Quite, that in a way was my point. A much better run club than us and have been for many years.

[reddogkev]

12 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

Yes, and I think it is SL's ambition, and so it should be. But ambition alone isn't enough, unfortunately. 

Are you implying there is a lack of ambition?  Take a look at Ashton Gate next time you happen to stop by - looks like ambition to me.

[reddogkev]

We absolutely have to get to a stage where we can sell at least 20,000 season tickets each year - that's up to us lot to do that. 

It won't happen overnight, but we'll get there.

 

[Jack Dawe]

5 minutes ago, reddogkev said:

Are you implying there is a lack of ambition?  Take a look at Ashton Gate next time you happen to stop by - looks like ambition to me.

Read what I said again, mate!

Ambition isn't what SL is short of. Trouble is, there's loads of clubs with "ambition." Any mug can have ambition. 

[reddogkev]

3 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

Read what I said again, mate!

Ambition isn't what SL is short of. Trouble is, there's loads of clubs with "ambition." Any mug can have ambition. 

Fair point, we both agree he is ambitious, but what is he missing?  Genuine question - why can't he drive his BCFC project over the finish line, or even get close to it?

Is it those fine margins, are we just unlucky?

I'm sure he'll crack it someday very soon!

[Son of Fred]

4 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

Read what I said again, mate!

Ambition isn't what SL is short of. Trouble is, there's loads of clubs with "ambition." Any mug can have ambition. 

Are you really in Sarah Palin's boudour??... Now,that's ambition that I can second!!!!!!!

[Jack Dawe]

7 minutes ago, reddogkev said:

We absolutely have to get to a stage where we can sell at least 20,000 season tickets each year - that's up to us lot to do that. 

It won't happen overnight, but we'll get there.

 

You are putting the horse before the cart, mate. In my opinion.

Why would another nine/ten thousand people want to buy a season ticket, on top of those already in possession of one (and how many current s tick holders will renew), after the last seven or eight months?

It's up to the club to earn that level of support by running the club competently, professionally. And I don't mean doing well in L1 by that

[Chairman Mao]

they've got delia

get that cockney bloke Oliver in

but make sure its not two

 

too many cooks spoil the broth

[Jack Dawe]

3 minutes ago, Robert the bruce said:

Are you really in Sarah Palin's boudour??... Now,that's ambition that I can second!!!!!!!

Yeah, and it sure as hell aint ISIS's "ass" I got my sights on....

[Jack Dawe]

3 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

You are putting the horse before the cart, mate. In my opinion.

Why would another nine/ten thousand people want to buy a season ticket, on top of those already in possession of one (and how many current s tick holders will renew), after the last seven or eight months?

It's up to the club to earn that level of support by running the club competently, professionally. And I don't mean doing well in L1 by that

Or the cart before the horse?

[EnclosureSurge]

4 hours ago, reddogkev said:

I don't follow, Rob, why are we a laugh?

Just because we are in the bottom 3 of the league doesn't mean we are a laugh!

Now I don't know for certain, but I'd imagine that running a professional football club in the 2nd tier of the English League is substantially more difficult than a fair few of us presume.

Norwich might be relegated this season, and could be in the same division as us next year, does this then mean they will then also be considered a 'laugh'?

No offence, reddog, but blimey.

There are plenty of people who equate our 'catchment area' with 'potential for success'. Brentford have a catchment area of about 2m squared and are outperforming us by country miles (plural). Ditto Rotherham, Huddersfield, etc etc (clubs in close proximity to other clubs). But never mind them, take Watford. They have nothing like our catchment (Hertfordshire may be big, but London is 20 mins away on the train) yet have outperformed us for 40 years. It's nothing to do with catchment area, that's just a red herring. So what if we did fill 27,000 seats? How much extra cash would that generate and, much more importantly, what would we do with it (look at our track record of spending money resulting in success. Our best season recently, 2007, was done on next to no money. Similar last season).

Your comparison with Norwich is a bit crass - esp as it seemed to be initially based on a similar sized capacity. Wouldn't that just result, more or less, with all clubs of over 30,000 in the Prem; us, Norwich, Watford, 15-30,000 sized stadia clubs in this div; then all the clubs with 10-15,000 in the 3rd Div etc etc? It surely can't be as simple as that or else I'll have a go at it.

Norwich have a) European history; b) consistent top flight history (and not in 1976); c) a stable board and attitude towards management; d) excellent treatment of fans with cheaper priced season tickets; e) now they've got parachute payments nx time they're relegated which, no doubt, they'll use wisely, putting them further ahead of us.

You say it is "substantially more difficult than we presume to run a FC in this div". It probably is, but we're plumbers, bakers and flag-pole makers. Our board are not. They're experienced at this (not that you'd know it). But MKD, PNE, HTFC, RUFC, Brentford, Reading, Cardiff, Burnley, Ipswich - all smaller, same sized or not much bigger than us - manage it without any difficulty year after year. it can't be that difficult. If it is difficult for the people in charge, fine, they should step aside.

We are a 'laugh' because we have berks in charge (not Berkshire), who consistently talk about making the Prem when we can't even avoid relegation trouble in this div. The Prem is a nice idea, it's good to have ambition, but what's wrong with the ambition of making it in the Champ first? Running before walking...

For me, it's a good idea to not say we can do a Swansea or we can be the next Bournemouth - rather, we can be the next Brentford, Rotherham, Huddersfield. These 'giants' are waay above us, further than the two or three or ten places in the table suggest.

No offence to you reddog, I admire your optimism (I'm saying this on every post at the mo! we are hurting as fans and I don't want to add to it by people thinking I'm having a pop).

You Reds!

 

[Red Exile]

well said EncloseSurge! Spot on.

[Red Exile]

2 hours ago, reddogkev said:

We absolutely have to get to a stage where we can sell at least 20,000 season tickets each year - that's up to us lot to do that. 

It won't happen overnight, but we'll get there.

 

I admire the optimism in your posts…sad to say that I don't share your faith...

…and I really don't believe that it's up to us to get ST sales up to 20k per year…or possible for us to do that. The club has to attract supporters by playing consistently attractive and successful football over many years.

I've been attending regularly since I got my first pay packet in January 1980. In that time there's been almost no consistent period in which we've been both attractive to watch and successful. It's all been fits and starts. I imagine many people must have shared my experience of having a ST for a while, and then letting it lapse, and then coming back to the club again. Lots of factors have been involved…moving home, having kids, changing jobs…and, importantly, whether what's been on offer at the Gate is interesting enough to commit time and money, our family's time and money, to watching Bristol City.

There are four City fans in our household. At the moment we have two STs, in the past we've had four. Next season we'll have none, we'll POTD if what's on offer is attractive. I appreciate that there are many on here who attend regardless…but to get to 20k ST holders the club is going to have perform far better in the future than it has in the past.

This season has been a fiasco, the opportunity was there to build on one of the best in our history…an opportunity completely wasted. A source of huge sadness.

 

[reddogkev]

1 hour ago, EnclosureSurge said:

No offence, reddog, but blimey.

There are plenty of people who equate our 'catchment area' with 'potential for success'. Brentford have a catchment area of about 2m squared and are outperforming us by country miles (plural). Ditto Rotherham, Huddersfield, etc etc (clubs in close proximity to other clubs). But never mind them, take Watford. They have nothing like our catchment (Hertfordshire may be big, but London is 20 mins away on the train) yet have outperformed us for 40 years. It's nothing to do with catchment area, that's just a red herring. So what if we did fill 27,000 seats? How much extra cash would that generate and, much more importantly, what would we do with it (look at our track record of spending money resulting in success. Our best season recently, 2007, was done on next to no money. Similar last season).

Your comparison with Norwich is a bit crass - esp as it seemed to be initially based on a similar sized capacity. Wouldn't that just result, more or less, with all clubs of over 30,000 in the Prem; us, Norwich, Watford, 15-30,000 sized stadia clubs in this div; then all the clubs with 10-15,000 in the 3rd Div etc etc? It surely can't be as simple as that or else I'll have a go at it.

Norwich have a) European history; b) consistent top flight history (and not in 1976); c) a stable board and attitude towards management; d) excellent treatment of fans with cheaper priced season tickets; e) now they've got parachute payments nx time they're relegated which, no doubt, they'll use wisely, putting them further ahead of us.

You say it is "substantially more difficult than we presume to run a FC in this div". It probably is, but we're plumbers, bakers and flag-pole makers. Our board are not. They're experienced at this (not that you'd know it). But MKD, PNE, HTFC, RUFC, Brentford, Reading, Cardiff, Burnley, Ipswich - all smaller, same sized or not much bigger than us - manage it without any difficulty year after year. it can't be that difficult. If it is difficult for the people in charge, fine, they should step aside.

We are a 'laugh' because we have berks in charge (not Berkshire), who consistently talk about making the Prem when we can't even avoid relegation trouble in this div. The Prem is a nice idea, it's good to have ambition, but what's wrong with the ambition of making it in the Champ first? Running before walking...

For me, it's a good idea to not say we can do a Swansea or we can be the next Bournemouth - rather, we can be the next Brentford, Rotherham, Huddersfield. These 'giants' are waay above us, further than the two or three or ten places in the table suggest.

No offence to you reddog, I admire your optimism (I'm saying this on every post at the mo! we are hurting as fans and I don't want to add to it by people thinking I'm having a pop).

You Reds!

 

 

59 minutes ago, Red Exile said:

I admire the optimism in your posts…sad to say that I don't share your faith...

…and I really don't believe that it's up to us to get ST sales up to 20k per year…or possible for us to do that. The club has to attract supporters by playing consistently attractive and successful football over many years.

I've been attending regularly since I got my first pay packet in January 1980. In that time there's been almost no consistent period in which we've been both attractive to watch and successful. It's all been fits and starts. I imagine many people must have shared my experience of having a ST for a while, and then letting it lapse, and then coming back to the club again. Lots of factors have been involved…moving home, having kids, changing jobs…and, importantly, whether what's been on offer at the Gate is interesting enough to commit time and money, our family's time and money, to watching Bristol City.

There are four City fans in our household. At the moment we have two STs, in the past we've had four. Next season we'll have none, we'll POTD if what's on offer is attractive. I appreciate that there are many on here who attend regardless…but to get to 20k ST holders the club is going to have perform far better in the future than it has in the past.

This season has been a fiasco, the opportunity was there to build on one of the best on our history…an opportunity completely wasted. A source of huge sadness.

 

 

Interesting comments there, chaps, cheers for your time.  I do still have faith in what the club are trying to achieve, based on what I see happening at Ashton Gate.  I don't think the transformation of Ashton Gate can be overlooked or taken as anything else than a serious signal of intent.  If the club had just slightly renovated, added some new seats again, slapped on a fresh coat of paint, then I would shelf all expectations of growing the club.  But after the ground is complete, we will see a large injection of funds into the team, and as results slowly improve, then our attendances will also climb.

Make no mistake - the monster of a stand now dominating the stadium is a sign that this club means business.

Like I said, it will night be overnight, or probably not occur in the next 2 seasons - but BCFC will soon become far more successful than we are used to.

[Fodbarmyarmy]

Moyes + £30m = PL in 3 seasons........ It could be that simple...

Big gamble of course, but if SL really wants it ?

[EnclosureSurge]

32 minutes ago, reddogkev said:

 

 

Interesting comments there, chaps, cheers for your time.  I do still have faith in what the club are trying to achieve, based on what I see happening at Ashton Gate.  I don't think the transformation of Ashton Gate can be overlooked or taken as anything else than a serious signal of intent.  If the club had just slightly renovated, added some new seats again, slapped on a fresh coat of paint, then I would shelf all expectations of growing the club.  But after the ground is complete, we will see a large injection of funds into the team, and as results slowly improve, then our attendances will also climb.

Make no mistake - the monster of a stand now dominating the stadium is a sign that this club means business.

Like I said, it will night be overnight, or probably not occur in the next 2 seasons - but BCFC will soon become far more successful than we are used to.

Of course, one thing I overlook is the age of people posting on here. Red Exile, like me, has been up & down following City since the 80s. And it's mostly been down, that is not an opinion, it's a fact. We've consistently been told we have a massive catchment area, huge potential, etc etc. But none of that matters if we don't have the people in charge who can capitalise on it. And, great stadium though we now have (although this means we have merely caught up with Norwich, Wolves, PNE, Boro, Hull, Rotherham, Huddersfield, Bolton, et al, who all had new stadia/revamps for a long time now, we were 10, 15, 20 years behind them for whatever reason), it counts for little unless we are using the proceeds wisely. Not a top track record in doing so.

reddog, you and/or others on here who optimistically post we can soon move to the next level, for all I know you're a young'n and have seen us promoted three times in 15 or so years and look at the other clubs moving up the food chain and think why can't we do that? (On the other hand, for all I know, you're older than me, yet still optimistic. I'm not actually asking your age!!!)

So, I should take account that younger posters may have a more positive, hopeful outlook, not having been scarred by years of underachievement.

And then, that statement sets me out as a bit of a cynic. I'm more inclined to believe that, having seen 35-odd years of City not cashing in on the catchment area, the potential, the new stands built since the 80s...what makes us dead certs to do that now? Steve L's money is obviously an avenue to success, but money's useless unless it's spent wisely. Swansea haven't needed money to overtake us since the 80s. Other clubs have spent money and overtaken us (Hull). Which seems to suggest to me we can't do it either with (Lansdown) or without (Davidson) money.

But that's not to say we won't ever. Just that, for me personally, with my cynical viewpoint (but undying love for the City) I am finding it hard to see how it's gonna happen. This season has crystalised that feeling as...could we have been given a better shot at establishing a foot in this div? The feel-good factor from 14/15, the implosion of the bottom 2, the smaller clubs with less to spend than us...we've had a fantastic opportunity to build a foundation, to grow in the next couple of years, and if we get relegated... Well...

I haven't lost hope. I still be supporting City for always. But this is worrying this season.

Glad there's positive people about like you, reddog, mind, or else it'd be pretty gloomy.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

I agree with a lot of what Enclosure Surge says. I would also add it might be different this time but should really stress the might. Because when I first started following in 1998 there was:

1) A planned move to Hengrove Park, 40000 seater stadium.

2) New European coach (Benny) At this time it was the new development the big new thing in football over here. Another positive.

3) 2nd tier and major potential...plus foreign assumed forward thinking club and coach.

4) World Cup football at this ground Hengrove Park.

5) Not just PL football but actually qualifyig for European football!! What a time to be alive...

None of this ever happened of course and Benny wasn't exactly living up to the hopes. Now we have a new ground well and truly on the way and the corporate facilities bars etc...

Maybe cross selling Bristol Sport ie ticket deals across Football, rugby, flyers may also be a way to go and sure Lansdown has already well and truly analysed it and the viability or otherwise.

So on paper now there's a much better foundation than 17 years ago...but there's lots of clubs with modern grounds etc so.

[Xiled]

1 hour ago, EnclosureSurge said:

Of course, one thing I overlook is the age of people posting on here. Red Exile, like me, has been up & down following City since the 80s. And it's mostly been down, that is not an opinion, it's a fact. We've consistently been told we have a massive catchment area, huge potential, etc etc. But none of that matters if we don't have the people in charge who can capitalise on it. And, great stadium though we now have (although this means we have merely caught up with Norwich, Wolves, PNE, Boro, Hull, Rotherham, Huddersfield, Bolton, et al, who all had new stadia/revamps for a long time now, we were 10, 15, 20 years behind them for whatever reason), it counts for little unless we are using the proceeds wisely. Not a top track record in doing so.

reddog, you and/or others on here who optimistically post we can soon move to the next level, for all I know you're a young'n and have seen us promoted three times in 15 or so years and look at the other clubs moving up the food chain and think why can't we do that? (On the other hand, for all I know, you're older than me, yet still optimistic. I'm not actually asking your age!!!)

So, I should take account that younger posters may have a more positive, hopeful outlook, not having been scarred by years of underachievement.

And then, that statement sets me out as a bit of a cynic. I'm more inclined to believe that, having seen 35-odd years of City not cashing in on the catchment area, the potential, the new stands built since the 80s...what makes us dead certs to do that now? Steve L's money is obviously an avenue to success, but money's useless unless it's spent wisely. Swansea haven't needed money to overtake us since the 80s. Other clubs have spent money and overtaken us (Hull). Which seems to suggest to me we can't do it either with (Lansdown) or without (Davidson) money.

But that's not to say we won't ever. Just that, for me personally, with my cynical viewpoint (but undying love for the City) I am finding it hard to see how it's gonna happen. This season has crystalised that feeling as...could we have been given a better shot at establishing a foot in this div? The feel-good factor from 14/15, the implosion of the bottom 2, the smaller clubs with less to spend than us...we've had a fantastic opportunity to build a foundation, to grow in the next couple of years, and if we get relegated... Well...

I haven't lost hope. I still be supporting City for always. But this is worrying this season.

Glad there's positive people about like you, reddog, mind, or else it'd be pretty gloomy.

 

I'm 44 years old and saw my first game in 1979/80.

For the most part, I'm a person with a positive outlook but I can say with certainty that I haven't felt more excited about the future of Bristol City than I have in the last 2 years.  Since the stadium plans were announced and the work began, we have finally got the statement of intent that I have been waiting for in my 35 years of watching City.

Okay, so it hasn't gone well this season but that doesn't mean it can't go well in the future.

We were overly optimistic last season and many fans are overly pessimistic this season.  There is still every chance that we won't get relegated and that was the main objective for 2015/16.

Nothing about the last three decades has any real baring on what will happen in the next three.  We can identify trends of bad management at board and first team level but that does not imply the same pattern going forward.

I'm sure nobody needs reminding but these are the positives that I hang onto:

• We have an English (billionaire) owner with local connections who has stated his long-term commitment to the club
• The stadium is undergoing a £50M redevelopment.  This will be a facility better than every other equivalent sized stadium in the country.  The potential to generate off-field income will available for the first time in our history
• The board and owner of Bristol City have stated that it is their intention to evolve the club to be sustainable in the medium term.  Although this is not sufficient ambition for many fans, it is preferable to the financial mess created by the guardians of Portsmouth, Bolton and Cardiff
• I like the Bristol Sport model of strength in numbers and I have seen no evidence that rugby, basketball or motor-racing have detracted from the football club that I know and love.  I am proud of where I live and I want to see success for sports in the whole area
• We deservedly beat the league leaders home and away during this 'terrible' season

I don't want anyone to call me a 'happy-clapper'.  I can see the problems as clearly as the next person.  We can all criticise and we can all suggest changes, signings, formations, tactics but that doesn't mean we would have any more success if we were in a position of responsibility.  The best thing any fan can do is support.

God knows I make enough mistakes in my own life so I'm not going to be overly critical of Bristol City for a bad half-season after a truly exceptional whole season.

[Jack Dawe]

6 minutes ago, Xiled said:

 

Okay, so it hasn't gone well this season but that doesn't mean it can't go well in the future.

We were overly optimistic last season and many fans are overly pessimistic this season.  

Very level-headed and reasonable points, mate. Well said. Think you are bang on there ^^ but not all of us are equals when it comes to "keeping our heads, while those around us..." etc. The degree of optimism last spring is reflected in the level of disappointment now, and some us are struggling with the short term pain