Manager Hypocrisy

[downendcity]

Interesting to read a couple of managers' comments this week-end regarding incidents affecting their teams.

Van Gaal said that the referee should take into consideration the character of the player when giving out cards. In this case it was the two yellows handed to Mata, who Van Gaal implied was not that type of player.

Pardew accused Benteke of diving to win a penalty, saying "that touch doesn't warrant that dive, if that touch warrants a collapse like that, then wow"

Will Pardew be instructing his players not to go down under such a challenge in future, especially in the last minute of a game they could win? How many times in the past has he grateful accepted a similar penalty decision in his team's favour?

How will Van Gaal react when a similar challenge to Mat's again one of his players is not given a yellow card because the ref " judges the offending player to be "not that type of player" and that such an offence was not in his charecter? Using the Van Gaal test then would player like Joey Barton ever be allowed to step onto the pitch?

On a slight tangent - are fouls ever committed these days that are NOT yellow card offences?

 

 

 

[chipdawg]

That Benteke penalty was exceptionally soft, but Pardew only has his own players to blame for conceding two goals against 10 men

As for van Gaal/Mata, the players character should have nothing to do with it- Mata got a stupid card for impeding a free kick and then tripped a player breaking forward. He does have a little bit of sympathy from me because I think he tried to pull out of the tackle, but it's not a tackle you need your forward who's just got a yellow card to be making. I think a lot of managers need to stop blaming refs and start looking at the actions of their own players

[And Its Smith]

6 minutes ago, downendcity said:

Interesting to read a couple of managers' comments this week-end regarding incidents affecting their teams.

Van Gaal said that the referee should take into consideration the character of the player when giving out cards. In this case it was the two yellows handed to Mata, who Van Gaal implied was not that type of player.

Pardew accused Benteke of diving to win a penalty, saying "that touch doesn't warrant that dive, if that touch warrants a collapse like that, then wow"

Will Pardew be instructing his players not to go down under such a challenge in future, especially in the last minute of a game they could win? How many times in the past has he grateful accepted a similar penalty decision in his team's favour?

How will Van Gaal react when a similar challenge to Mat's again one of his players is not given a yellow card because the ref " judges the offending player to be "not that type of player" and that such an offence was not in his charecter? Using the Van Gaal test then would player like Joey Barton ever be allowed to step onto the pitch?

On a slight tangent - are fouls ever committed these days that are NOT yellow card offences?

 

 

 

Van Gaal and Pardew both know what they say is wrong but say it anyway to deflect blame from their performances.  And it seems to work, so they will keep doing it.  

I watched MOTD last night and as soon as the final whistle sounded for the WBA game, the camera showed the referee and the commentator said 'that will be the taking point'.  Well, it shouldn't be. The red card was deserved.  Perhaps the time and space that Rondon had in the box should be the taking point.

[downendcity]

24 minutes ago, RedDave said:

Van Gaal and Pardew both know what they say is wrong but say it anyway to deflect blame from their performances.  And it seems to work, so they will keep doing it.  

I watched MOTD last night and as soon as the final whistle sounded for the WBA game, the camera showed the referee and the commentator said 'that will be the taking point'.  Well, it shouldn't be. The red card was deserved.  Perhaps the time and space that Rondon had in the box should be the taking point.

Agee Dave. How many times do the pundits spend more time discussing whether a penalty should or should not have been given, with replays of the incident from every conceivable angle and slam, but little time discussing the relative performances of the teams and players.

In fairness to the managers, the only questions they seem to get asked in post match interviews are those relating to contentious decisions, so while discussing these issues deflects from their teams' performances, the media make their job easier.

[Guest]

My problem is that referees in general (and not in relation to this 'incident') do not give advantage to an attacker in the box. If you ride a foul and get a shot away the ref will not pull it back and award you the penalty. Unless you've got a great chance to score why would you not go down? It's not how the game should be played, but it's of the referee's own doing. I think advantage how its played outside the box should be just so played within the box. If it was then perhaps there'd be less inclination to go down so softly.

[And Its Smith]

25 minutes ago, downendcity said:

Agee Dave. How many times do the pundits spend more time discussing whether a penalty should or should not have been given, with replays of the incident from every conceivable angle and slam, but little time discussing the relative performances of the teams and players.

In fairness to the managers, the only questions they seem to get asked in post match interviews are those relating to contentious decisions, so while discussing these issues deflects from their teams' performances, the media make their job easier.

Absolutely.  Why not ask Pardew 'why do you think your team struggled to control the game despite having a man advantage?'

we might get some interesting interviews then.  I can't watch MOTD analysis any more.  They rarely tell you something that isn't plainly obvious and, as you say, spend most of the time going over penalties and red cards.

[Mike Hunt-Hertz]

I'm totally cynical about penalties (ours included). About 95% are just plain and simple cheating!

[Spike]

I think if contact stops you from getting your chance on goal it's a pen, that Benteke penalty never should have been, he knew he could stay on his feet but the chance would be ten times harder and so he dropped like a sack of spuds. There needs to be punishment for diving that can be enforced after the match, so for example if Pardew complained to the FA and requested a review they would then watch it and if he was found to have been diving he should be fined and serve a suspension. At first a good few players would get done but it would in the long run reinforce players mentality not to dive.

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

1 hour ago, Mike Hunt-Hertz said:

I'm totally cynical about penalties (ours included). About 95% are just plain and simple cheating!

Oddly I feel completely the opposite.  I think referees have got into a complete mess with penalties.  Some offenses (e.g. arms over the shoulders at corners) no longer seem to qualify as fouls, while referees seem unwilling to give a penalty unless the player goes down.  Players know this, so they chuck themselves down with minimal contact, and get booked for diving. In almost every match clear offences go unpunished in the penalty area, while softer offences are penalised elsewhere on the field.   There were at least two clear handballs in Prem matches over the weekend that were ignored, but would have been penalised if they had happened on the halfway line. Is there ever a corner that doesn't see someone being pulled back or wrestled?  If referees played to the letter of the law, how many penalties would there be in any match? A dozen?

 

 

[WolfOfWestStreet]

What annoyed me about the MOTD coverage was they said there was contact so it was a penalty. I hate this, contact doesn't automatically mean a foul it is a contact sport after all.

a brush on the leg is contact, but is that enough to topple a 6'4'' centre forward? sad really.

finally every foul doesn't have to be a yellow card, it can just be a foul.

[ChippenhamRed]

The phrase I keep hearing, from Michael Owen in particular, is "he has every right to go down there".  No!  Whenever you are CHOOSING to fall down, that's simulation, and that's cheating.  You should only ever go down when you are knocked over and unable to stay on your feet.  And you don't necessarily need to be knocked over to get a penalty - you can still be fouled but maintain your balance.

"Every right to go down" is an example of the modern game at it's worst.

[Super]

44 minutes ago, WolfOfWestStreet said:

What annoyed me about the MOTD coverage was they said there was contact so it was a penalty. I hate this, contact doesn't automatically mean a foul it is a contact sport after all.

a brush on the leg is contact, but is that enough to topple a 6'4'' centre forward? sad really.

finally every foul doesn't have to be a yellow card, it can just be a foul.

Look at our penalty at Charlton barely any contact.

[WolfOfWestStreet]

2 hours ago, Super said:

Look at our penalty at Charlton barely any contact.

What's your point? We have players that cheat like everyone else, doesn't make it right.

[Super]

3 hours ago, ChippenhamRed said:

The phrase I keep hearing, from Michael Owen in particular, is "he has every right to go down there".  No!  Whenever you are CHOOSING to fall down, that's simulation, and that's cheating.  You should only ever go down when you are knocked over and unable to stay on your feet.  And you don't necessarily need to be knocked over to get a penalty - you can still be fouled but maintain your balance.

"Every right to go down" is an example of the modern game at it's worst.

In fairness Michael Owen did that against the Argies in 2002 didn't hear many kicking up a fuss about it then.

[Super]

14 minutes ago, WolfOfWestStreet said:

What's your point? We have players that cheat like everyone else, doesn't make it right.

Just saying it's modern day football.

[Tipps69]

I think in all fairness it shouldn't make any difference who commits the offence, if it warrants the necessary punishment then the player gets what anyone else would get & Mata has come out & apologised for the sending off which kind of makes Van Gaal's comments null & void!!

As for Benteke, I really don't think it was a penalty & I don't think he should of gone down but if it had happened for us, none of us would be moaning about it but it is supposedly a contact sport & these big 6ft5" players getting knocked down by a feather is starting to take us back to the days of Klinsmann!!

And that can only be a bad thing but I believe this lies at the hands of the refs & they need to clamp down on things, along with the wrestling that goes on at corners & freekicks!!

Give a penalty for the first incident that occurs in the penalty area & I believe we would see an end to this but it needs to be done by every ref & that's where the problem lies, there isn't enough consistency within the game!!

As for Pardew's comments regarding the officials need to take into consideration of the time of the incident, that's complete rubbish & is why there is a lack of consistency amongst referees, the same decisions should be given from the first second until the last second & I think he was just trying to find someone else to blame because he admitted that he was at fault for his poor substitutions that didn't affect the game enough & he just spouted rubbish to try to distract from that!!

[One Team In Keynsham]

20 minutes ago, Tipps69 said:

I think in all fairness it shouldn't make any difference who commits the offence, if it warrants the necessary punishment then the player gets what anyone else would get & Mata has come out & apologised for the sending off which kind of makes Van Gaal's comments null & void!!

As for Benteke, I really don't think it was a penalty & I don't think he should of gone down but if it had happened for us, none of us would be moaning about it but it is supposedly a contact sport & these big 6ft5" players getting knocked down by a feather is starting to take us back to the days of Klinsmann!!

And that can only be a bad thing but I believe this lies at the hands of the refs & they need to clamp down on things, along with the wrestling that goes on at corners & freekicks!!

Give a penalty for the first incident that occurs in the penalty area & I believe we would see an end to this but it needs to be done by every ref & that's where the problem lies, there isn't enough consistency within the game!!

As for Pardew's comments regarding the officials need to take into consideration of the time of the incident, that's complete rubbish & is why there is a lack of consistency amongst referees, the same decisions should be given from the first second until the last second & I think he was just trying to find someone else to blame because he admitted that he was at fault for his poor substitutions that didn't affect the game enough & he just spouted rubbish to try to distract from that!!

As soft as it looked in real time, my own view was that it was a fair shout.  The speed the player is moving, and thus how balanced he might be, is contributory to the amount of contact needed to take him down. Replays show the defenders trailing knee making contact with Benteke's foot, so a penalty it is.

As for Pardew, he should be more concerned as to the stupidity of his defender going in for the challenge:  all he had to do was shepherd Benteke out of play and the whistle goes.

Re some call for time of incident having any bearing on the ref's decision: I agree it should have none.  Was reading debates on a similar theme re Mata's sending off, about how it was wrong to give a 2nd yellow so close to the 1st.  Bollocks.  The fault there lies with Mata being stupid twice in the space of a matter of minutes, not with the ref enforcing the laws.

[Tipps69]

8 minutes ago, One Team In Keynsham said:

As soft as it looked in real time, my own view was that it was a fair shout.  The speed the player is moving, and thus how balanced he might be, is contributory to the amount of contact needed to take him down. Replays show the defenders trailing knee making contact with Benteke's foot, so a penalty it is.

As for Pardew, he should be more concerned as to the stupidity of his defender going in for the challenge:  all he had to do was shepherd Benteke out of play and the whistle goes.

Re some call for time of incident having any bearing on the ref's decision: I agree it should have none.  Was reading debates on a similar theme re Mata's sending off, about how it was wrong to give a 2nd yellow so close to the 1st.  Bollocks.  The fault there lies with Mata being stupid twice in the space of a matter of minutes, not with the ref enforcing the laws.

Yeah, I know what you're saying but it was the merest of touches & I'm surprised he even felt it but you're right, if the defender had stayed on his feet instead of allowing himself to slide towards Benteke, it would never of happened.

[One Team In Keynsham]

21 minutes ago, Tipps69 said:

Yeah, I know what you're saying but it was the merest of touches & I'm surprised he even felt it but you're right, if the defender had stayed on his feet instead of allowing himself to slide towards Benteke, it would never of happened.

Guardian Fiver clarified today that none of Pardew's players would ever think of going down like a sack of shit in similar circumstances:

 

QUOTE OF THE DAY

25 October 2015: “They put their legs out and I felt a touch so I went down” – Crystal Palace’s Wilfried Zaha after the game against Leicester City.

6 March: “I’ve just heard Jamie Carragher saying there was contact and [Christian] Benteke was within his rights to go down. Jamie Carragher is saying that? He’s an ex-pro. Come on. We’ve had decisions ignored this season where Wilf gets completely wiped out” – a funky Alan Pardew after Liverpool’s last-minute penalty winner against Palace on Sunday

[Tipps69]

6 minutes ago, One Team In Keynsham said:

Guardian Fiver clarified today that none of Pardew's players would ever think of going down like a sack of shit in similar circumstances:

 

QUOTE OF THE DAY

 

25 October 2015: “They put their legs out and I felt a touch so I went down” – Crystal Palace’s Wilfried Zaha after the game against Leicester City.

 

6 March: “I’ve just heard Jamie Carragher saying there was contact and [Christian] Benteke was within his rights to go down. Jamie Carragher is saying that? He’s an ex-pro. Come on. We’ve had decisions ignored this season where Wilf gets completely wiped out” – a funky Alan Pardew after Liverpool’s last-minute penalty winner against Palace on Sunday

I guess it's taking things to another lever of gamesmanship / sportsmanship & I don't really like where it's going to again!!

But then again I'm from a time when football was a contact sport & you were allowed to put a proper challenge in on someone without them going down like they've just been hit by a bulldozer!!

How the times have changed (and not for the better)!!

[One Team In Keynsham]

20 minutes ago, Tipps69 said:

I guess it's taking things to another lever of gamesmanship / sportsmanship & I don't really like where it's going to again!!

But then again I'm from a time when football was a contact sport & you were allowed to put a proper challenge in on someone without them going down like they've just been hit by a bulldozer!!

How the times have changed (and not for the better)!!

I too hark back to the days when someone could shoulder-barge the keeper into the net and claim a goal.  Unless the keeper was Fatty Foulke, that is.

[GrahamC]

Let's be honest Carragher commenting on Liverpool is like Gary Neville on Man U, not worth hearing, just 100% biased.

[Donkeeebles]

Managers Hypocrisy is just one of the many things I am sick to death of with football

[downendcity]

3 hours ago, WolfOfWestStreet said:

What's your point? We have players that cheat like everyone else, doesn't make it right.

It's just that ours aren't as good at as other teams, especially those that have played at a higher level.

[EstoniaTallinnRed]

2 hours ago, Tipps69 said:

I guess it's taking things to another lever of gamesmanship / sportsmanship & I don't really like where it's going to again!!

But then again I'm from a time when football was a contact sport & you were allowed to put a proper challenge in on someone without them going down like they've just been hit by a bulldozer!!

How the times have changed (and not for the better)!!

I agree!  and they never use to roll around as if they were in agony, just to get the player sent off.  They just got up and got on with the game, unless of course, they were genuinely injured.

[BS4 on Tour...]

10 hours ago, RedDave said:

Van Gaal and Pardew both know what they say is wrong but say it anyway to deflect blame from their performances.  And it seems to work, so they will keep doing it.  

Exactly - some managers know just how to play the media game....can't believe the number of people on here who 'hate' Neil Warnock because of his media persona...he plays it perfectly, deflecting attention away from his players by being deliberately controversial.

Loved his classic: "I never comment on referees and I'm not making an exception for that muppet..."

 

[Tipps69]

49 minutes ago, EstoniaTallinnRed said:

I agree!  and they never use to roll around as if they were in agony, just to get the player sent off.  They just got up and got on with the game, unless of course, they were genuinely injured.

Exactly that or get up & give them one straight back & play then carried on!!

It used to be a case that you used to use the "magic sponge" if you went down injured, now it's a case of the fairy physio waving his "magic wand of fairy dust" & all of a sudden, someone who was rolling around like their leg had fallen off is now able to run full speed within 5 seconds of the use of such fairy dust!!

[PHILINFRANCE]

1 hour ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Exactly - some managers know just how to play the media game....can't believe the number of people on here who 'hate' Neil Warnock because of his media persona...he plays it perfectly, deflecting attention away from his players by being deliberately controversial.

Loved his classic: "I never comment on referees and I'm not making an exception for that muppet..."

 

Very similar to Ron Atkinson's famous comment :

"I never comment on referees... and I'm not going to break the habit of a lifetime for that prat"

[BS4 on Tour...]

3 minutes ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

Very similar to Ron Atkinson's famous comment :

"I never comment on referees... and I'm not going to break the habit of a lifetime for that prat"

Ah, I may have got that wrong then, cheers for the correction...

[PHILINFRANCE]

7 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Ah, I may have got that wrong then, cheers for the correction...

Colin probably said it as well - it wouldn't surprise me if he sought to take credit for other peoples' actions.