Squad size (again)

[Tipps69]

People saying regards to this summer that we should be looking El Abd, Frankie, Little, Osbourne, Reid, Burns, Wilbraham, Agard & even Freeman plus the 3 loan signings!!

Steve Bruce has just stated that he has 21 outfield players available to him!!

Now we've played this season out with a wafer thin squad & if we were to get rid of these players, it would mean that we would have to sign upwards of 10 players which I just can't see happening!

I agree that players will probably leave but I would have thought that Frankie (unless he decides he must leave for 1st football), Agard, Little, Freeman & one of Reid or Burns will be looked at to stay within the squad.

We need to up the squad size & depth but I don't think we need a squad of 21 outfield players, at least not full first team pro's but if you add to the squad Vyner, Morrell, McCluskey, Garita & maybe one or two others to come through from the U21's.

So maybe 5 or 6 permanent signings to up the quality of the first team but that maybe needs to be upped depending on LJ's view of getting loan players in but we have to be looking at 1 or 2 centre backs, 1 or 2 central midfielders, a right midfielder & a striker or two plus there is the now obvious chance of us signing Matthews on a permanent deal.

It all leads to what will hopefully be an exciting summer in store & something that we should of obviously put in place last summer.

And I would already expect MA, KB & LJ to have a list of potential targets already lined up, especially OOC players that may fit the criteria that we require.

One obvious target will be Gilbey & the fact that he's OOC in summer explains why we seemingly put in a ridiculously low offer (in the Colchester managers view) because it will maybe help keep the compensation figure down that we would have to pay.

I also wouldn't be surprised to see one or two players arrive via our French & Spanish scouts.

Now let's get ourselves out of this relegation dog fight & give ourselves something to really look forward to over the summer & into next season.

[WsM-Red]

18 minutes ago, Tipps69 said:

People saying regards to this summer that we should be looking El Abd, Frankie, Little, Osbourne, Reid, Burns, Wilbraham, Agard & even Freeman plus the 3 loan signings!!

Steve Bruce has just stated that he has 21 outfield players available to him!!

Now we've played this season out with a wafer thin squad & if we were to get rid of these players, it would mean that we would have to sign upwards of 10 players which I just can't see happening!

I agree that players will probably leave but I would have thought that Frankie (unless he decides he must leave for 1st football), Agard, Little, Freeman & one of Reid or Burns will be looked at to stay within the squad.

We need to up the squad size & depth but I don't think we need a squad of 21 outfield players, at least not full first team pro's but if you add to the squad Vyner, Morrell, McCluskey, Garita & maybe one or two others to come through from the U21's.

So maybe 5 or 6 permanent signings to up the quality of the first team but that maybe needs to be upped depending on LJ's view of getting loan players in but we have to be looking at 1 or 2 centre backs, 1 or 2 central midfielders, a right midfielder & a striker or two plus there is the now obvious chance of us signing Matthews on a permanent deal.

It all leads to what will hopefully be an exciting summer in store & something that we should of obviously put in place last summer.

And I would already expect MA, KB & LJ to have a list of potential targets already lined up, especially OOC players that may fit the criteria that we require.

One obvious target will be Gilbey & the fact that he's OOC in summer explains why we seemingly put in a ridiculously low offer (in the Colchester managers view) because it will maybe help keep the compensation figure down that we would have to pay.

I also wouldn't be surprised to see one or two players arrive via our French & Spanish scouts.

Now let's get ourselves out of this relegation dog fight & give ourselves something to really look forward to over the summer & into next season.

Unfortunately, I suspect Hull have got a slightly larger wage budget than ourselves, what with parachute payments and all. Maybe better comparing ourselves to the likes of Brentford, Huddersfield etc. with slightly smaller budgets.

If we go and operate above our means by breaking the wage budget considerably to bring in some big earners, what if we still don't achieve the end goal of premiership football? We may have a load of deadwood that we can't shift. Just look at what happened to Bolton. I think we need a few signings for sure to bolster numbers and create competition, but going out and splashing the cash on big contracts isn't the answer IMO.

[Tipps69]

I wasn't necessarily saying that we should be looking at a squad of that size but it puts into comparison just what we are in competition with.

And I do think it shows the need for a bit more squad depth & I think we'll be looking at OOC youngsters (under 24) to fit in with our criteria & that way we should be looking at a fairly low initial outlay with the hope of a decent sell-on value should things go to plan.

I really don't think we'll be looking at spending £5m upwards on just one player, like we were supposedly looking at last summer, I hope that lesson has been learnt!!

[BCFC_Dan]

Squad size is largely just the manager's personal preference. Some like to have lots of options and competition for places. Others prefer to work with a very small group of players they know they can trust.

In addition, squad size, or rather the number of players used in a season, is often inversely proportional to how successful the season is. Poor seasons tend to result in large squads as one or more managers desperately brings in new players to try to improve matters. Going the whole season with a squad of 16-20 first teamers on the other hand tends to reflect a successful season.

A squad of 16 plus academy players is more than adequate, so long as the players are of a high enough calibre. City need to make signings but in order to bring in quality and the correct balance, not necessarily quantity.

[Tipps69]

5 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

I see us aiming to get a top top striker in again. I see that and a quality centre back will be the most important pieces of business we do. Gilbey could well be a great addition, although I do think Bryan and Ayling might prove to be good central midfielders for us, with smith and pack looking good since the change of manger, we already might have good depth there. Glad we have now got this right back on loan, not only for this season but if he proves himself then it could sort out that right side where we look vulnerable. I do believe the ones that are not good enough should go. We need quality to come in for quality. I would always give players that are young more time to prove themselves though. Bobby was massively disappointing on the weekend, but he has shown glimpses of what he can do, and we need to show loyalty to our youngsters.

But Reid is no longer a "youngster" at 23 years old & maybe he's just not good enough for this level.

[JoeAman08]

I definately think we should be aiming for 20 or so squad players. With the U21 there if needed. As far as who should maybe go I think Wilbs, Wagstaff, El-Abd, and Osbourne should probably move on. Then depending on who is brought in, Agard, Reid and Burns can be looked at. Maybe let Burns go to league 1 until January. 

Keeping 1 or both of Tomlin and Baker would help. That would leave us with 14 without them both though. We'd need at least 1 striker, 1 center mid, 1 winger and 2 defenders. That's 5 and would take us to 19. I think we should be looking to get 5 permanent signings in the summer. It isn't a massive amount. Sign 5 and 2 on loan we have 21. It's not a huge ask and as long as our core stay together, integration into the squad should be smooth. 

[Tipps69]

23 minutes ago, JoeAman08 said:

I definately think we should be aiming for 20 or so squad players. With the U21 there if needed. As far as who should maybe go I think Wilbs, Wagstaff, El-Abd, and Osbourne should probably move on. Then depending on who is brought in, Agard, Reid and Burns can be looked at. Maybe let Burns go to league 1 until January. 

Keeping 1 or both of Tomlin and Baker would help. That would leave us with 14 without them both though. We'd need at least 1 striker, 1 center mid, 1 winger and 2 defenders. That's 5 and would take us to 19. I think we should be looking to get 5 permanent signings in the summer. It isn't a massive amount. Sign 5 and 2 on loan we have 21. It's not a huge ask and as long as our core stay together, integration into the squad should be smooth. 

We are also going along the basis that none of the players we wish to keep aren't taken by someone else higher up the food chain like Flint, Smith & Kodjia!!

That would throw a real spoke in the wheels & mean that we could be in a right mess!!

[JoeAman08]

2 hours ago, Tipps69 said:

We are also going along the basis that none of the players we wish to keep aren't taken by someone else higher up the food chain like Flint, Smith & Kodjia!!

That would throw a real spoke in the wheels & mean that we could be in a right mess!!

Yes it would. It's why I think most feel we missed an opportunity in the summer. We don't have to sell and if we do I hope we get proper money for whoever it is getting the interest. The 3 you mentioned combined would be well over 10m. Depends on what LJ wants I guess and whether he thinks he can turn a sale into a couple good buys. I hope we hold on to most of the group though. 

[Tipps69]

59 minutes ago, JoeAman08 said:

Yes it would. It's why I think most feel we missed an opportunity in the summer. We don't have to sell and if we do I hope we get proper money for whoever it is getting the interest. The 3 you mentioned combined would be well over 10m. Depends on what LJ wants I guess and whether he thinks he can turn a sale into a couple good buys. I hope we hold on to most of the group though. 

The problem is though, say Newcastle or Sunderland get relegated or even WBA make a move for Flint, if they offered £1.5m it isn't nowhere near what we'd want but it would offer Flint a step up the food chain in regards to quality of players, size of crowds on a regular basis & no doubt most of all a likely large signing on fee & subsequent monthly pay packet, all of which we could only offer if we were to get to the Premiership & then we are holding a player back from debatably progressing his playing career & financial benefits!!

So could we hold out for £3m, £4m, £5m?

It's irrelevant as to whether we don't need to sell, there are other factors to take into the equation from the players point of view & at the end of the day, anything we get is no doubt going to be a profit on what we paid for him & that is what the club is kind of looking at, buying cheap, selling high(er)!!

Where would the club draw the line?

Would they be able to get a subsequent replacement in that fits into their criteria?

What sort of message would that send out to other players (Smith & Kodjia)? That we are a selling club & that then may make them want away too, especially if they are made aware as to what other financial packages there are out there..............

We are no longer the big fish in the small pond, we are now very much a very small fish in an even bigger pond & not in a position to battle it out with others unless we suddenly release the purse strings which I can't see happening enough to see us compete with the teams at the top of this division let alone the ones that are anywhere in the Premiership!!

[JoeAman08]

4 minutes ago, Tipps69 said:

The problem is though, say Newcastle or Sunderland get relegated or even WBA make a move for Flint, if they offered £1.5m it isn't nowhere near what we'd want but it would offer Flint a step up the food chain in regards to quality of players, size of crowds on a regular basis & no doubt most of all a likely large signing on few & subsequent monthly pay packet, all of which we could only offer if we were to get to the Premiership & then we are holding a player back from debatably progressing his playing career & financial benefits!!

So could we hold out for £3m, £4m, £5m?

It's irrelevant as to whether we don't need to sell, there are other factors to take into the equation from the players point of view & at the end of the day, anything we get is no doubt going to be a profit on what we paid for him & that is what the club is kind of looking at, buying cheap, selling high(er)!!

Where would the club draw the line?

Would they be able to get a subsequent replacement in that fits into their criteria?

What sort of message would that send out to other players (Smith & Kodjia)? That we are a selling club & that then may make them want away too, especially if they are made aware as to what other financial packages there are out there..............

We are no longer the big fish in the small pond, we are now very much a very small fish in an even bigger pond & not in a position to battle it out with others unless we suddenly release the purse strings which I can't see happening enough to see us compete with the teams at the top of this division let alone the ones that are anywhere in the Premiership!!

True but just be honest with any of the players. This is our valuation of you and you won't go for less. We've been held hostage on prices in both windows this year and we need to do the same. Tell Flint we value you at 2.5m(just a number for sake of the topic). Anything less we will be rejecting it. He's just signed a new contract here I believe and the club needs to be firm for the club. Club should always come before player. Have an open dialouge and I think everyone will be much more comfortable with that sort of scenario. 

[Lanterne Rouge]

5 minutes ago, JoeAman08 said:

True but just be honest with any of the players. This is our valuation of you and you won't go for less. We've been held hostage on prices in both windows this year and we need to do the same. Tell Flint we value you at 2.5m(just a number for sake of the topic). Anything less we will be rejecting it. He's just signed a new contract here I believe and the club needs to be firm for the club. Club should always come before player. Have an open dialouge and I think everyone will be much more comfortable with that sort of scenario. 

I think (but don`t know) that most contracts these days have a clause which says if a premier league club make an approach, the player is allowed to talk to them. I think Albert`s did.

[Tipps69]

3 minutes ago, JoeAman08 said:

True but just be honest with any of the players. This is our valuation of you and you won't go for less. We've been held hostage on prices in both windows this year and we need to do the same. Tell Flint we value you at 2.5m(just a number for sake of the topic). Anything less we will be rejecting it. He's just signed a new contract here I believe and the club needs to be firm for the club. Club should always come before player. Have an open dialouge and I think everyone will be much more comfortable with that sort of scenario. 

Trouble is, this is when the players agent earns his corn!!

Inform the his client what he will earn + signing on fee plus the fact that you'll be playing in front of 30-40-50k every other week & up the top end of the table where in a years time you could be in the Premiership!!

Or you could stay here, on less than £10k p/w, playing in front of maybe 20-25k every other week & maybe in league 1 next year or battling for mid table at best!!

Said player then starts playing up a bit or even under performing during matches & you have a real dilemma on your hands!!

[Tipps69]

3 minutes ago, Red Right Hand said:

I think (but don`t know) that most contracts these days have a clause which says if a premier league club make an approach, the player is allowed to talk to them. I think Albert`s did.

That would probably be the case & that wouldn't help the club to hold on to a main stay of team.

And you will probably find the fee that would allow contract negotiations would be fairly low in comparison to what the average fan would value the player at.

[RobintheRed Red]

4 hours ago, Tipps69 said:

But Reid is no longer a "youngster" at 23 years old & maybe he's just not good enough for this level.

Totally agree weak an lightweight never gonna get any stronger 

[JoeAman08]

1 hour ago, Tipps69 said:

Trouble is, this is when the players agent earns his corn!!

Inform the his client what he will earn + signing on fee plus the fact that you'll be playing in front of 30-40-50k every other week & up the top end of the table where in a years time you could be in the Premiership!!

Or you could stay here, on less than £10k p/w, playing in front of maybe 20-25k every other week & maybe in league 1 next year or battling for mid table at best!!

Said player then starts playing up a bit or even under performing during matches & you have a real dilemma on your hands!!

He could be playing for a prem team in a years time with Bristol city. They've got more wages to offer(Sunderland in mind for this argument). Look at QPR, not too at from us after being in the premiership. Some players(not the majority) like playing most weeks(not sure if Flint would at a bigger club). So yes, it's harder to keep a player when teams like that come calling but if it isn't a prem team I'm not letting him go for less than my valuation. Many clubs operate like this(Peterbrough get nice sums of money for their players). We have to stand firm with player and agents for the benefit of the club. 

[Tipps69]

13 minutes ago, JoeAman08 said:

He could be playing for a prem team in a years time with Bristol city. They've got more wages to offer(Sunderland in mind for this argument). Look at QPR, not too at from us after being in the premiership. Some players(not the majority) like playing most weeks(not sure if Flint would at a bigger club). So yes, it's harder to keep a player when teams like that come calling but if it isn't a prem team I'm not letting him go for less than my valuation. Many clubs operate like this(Peterbrough get nice sums of money for their players). We have to stand firm with player and agents for the benefit of the club. 

I'd love to see us take a tough stance when it comes to allowing players leave that we don't particularly want to let go but unless someone at the club has suddenly grown some balls, I really don't see us doing it........

But saying that, who / when was the last person that left, that we didn't really want to lose them?

Adomah?

[JoeAman08]

2 minutes ago, Tipps69 said:

I'd love to see us take a tough stance when it comes to allowing players leave that we don't particularly want to let go but unless someone at the club has suddenly grown some balls, I really don't see us doing it........

But saying that, who / when was the last person that left, that we didn't really want to lose them?

Adomah?

Someone needs to grow the balls then. It's a must for our survival in this division and for any progress to be made. We wanted players with resale value so we better be ready to have interest in our players and get top money for them. Otherwise the system won't ever work. 

[Tipps69]

But for Flint, for example, we signed him for what, £300,000?

So any profit on that & it will be seen as good because even £1.5m means we've X our outlay!!

Although most of us would hope for upwards of £2.5m+ for someone who scores a fair majority of our goals too!!