EU closing statements

[Fiale]

Well the vote is upon us, so I thought it would be nice for people to post their closing arguments for their position on the EU referendum. This thread is not a debate, so please do not post to refute or argue with people (there is a thread here if you want to do this http://goo.gl/arZmPF ). Post your opinion or view on why you and others should remain or leave. Hopefully people will keep to just this and move any disagreements over to the other Brexit thread (maybe the mods could help keep people on tack ?). Regardless of of your position I guess good luck on Thursday, it will certainly be a interesting day for sure.

 

 

 

 

[Kid in the Riot]

[TRL]

I vote leave. Not on immigration, not on scaremongering from remain, not for crap spouted by Brexit leaders. I I vote leave as I disagree with the way the EU treats its weaker members, how it willing devalues and deskills what it sees as weaker countries. How it rides roughshod over citizens of said countries.

 

The longer we stay the more interwoven we become into this self obsessed government by proxy which eventually will lead to a European superstars which we will no longer have the control to stay or leave.

 

What the EU has done to Greece and Cyprus made my mind up a long time ago

[Nibor]

Remain.  Leaving will have definite negative consequences and I haven't heard any convincing argument that any benefits we might get from doing so will outweigh those consequences in the short term or the long term.  

My reasoning:

I'd like to avoid signing up to TTIP but not at the price of severe damage to the economy that will be caused immediately on leaving and the possibility of suffering a series of even worse and less transparent trade deals.

I'd like to target immigration better at skills we need but not at the price of losing my ability to work unimpeded across the EU or the loss of jobs in businesses that depend on that ability.

I'd like to have a lower population growth to allow house building and overstretched public services to catch up but not at the price of bringing home aging ex pats who won't be net contributors like immigrants are and making the problem worse.

I'd like to see Cameron and Osborne shafted but not to be replaced by the far more dangerously incompetent Johnson and Gove.

I'd like to stop hearing about UKIP and giving pointless xenophobia (and a small core of outright bigotry) such a media platform but not at the price of healing the rift that has crippled the tories for 25 years.

I'd like politicians to be more accountable and accessible and the UK to have the final say in application of law, but not at the price of permanently crippling the UK's ability to influence anything in Europe and letting the tories gut all the rights we've gained from the EU.

Basically I'm taking the least shitty end of the stick and I'll be glad when all the high volume lying and counter lying is over.  The campaign has been utterly embarrassing and shameful on both sides and most people involved in the incessant bullshit that has been inflicted upon us should be banned from public speaking forever, and if possible have their voiceboxes and typing fingers surgically removed.  Also most of the media who have reported on this should be replaced with 12 year olds who in general demonstrate better critical thinking and analysis skills and would have a better level of respect for the intelligence of the voting public.  

[cityexile]

Was going to add something, and then saw Nibor summarises it very well.

It is going to be very close.

I know the argument has been made if we were not in Europe, would we now vote in? What this argument msses is we have no idea what our economy would be like now. After the last major war (which I accept had a pretty major impact!) the 50s, 60s and much of the 70s were decades of very slow growth for us. The sick man of Europe.

It is only since we became integrated in to Europe that we have seen faster growth than many of them. It may be a coincidence, but I am not so sure. If there is anything that put the 'Great' in to Britian it has been our ability to trade. It would seem to me a step to far to vote to leave the worlds biggest single market, in the hope we can replicate it outside.

Not an excited Remain voter, for the reasons Nibor has said, but a Remain voter none the less.

[Taz]

8 hours ago, Nibor said:

Remain.  Leaving will have definite negative consequences and I haven't heard any convincing argument that any benefits we might get from doing so will outweigh those consequences in the short term or the long term.  

My reasoning:

I'd like to avoid signing up to TTIP but not at the price of severe damage to the economy that will be caused immediately on leaving and the possibility of suffering a series of even worse and less transparent trade deals.

I'd like to target immigration better at skills we need but not at the price of losing my ability to work unimpeded across the EU or the loss of jobs in businesses that depend on that ability.

I'd like to have a lower population growth to allow house building and overstretched public services to catch up but not at the price of bringing home aging ex pats who won't be net contributors like immigrants are and making the problem worse.

I'd like to see Cameron and Osborne shafted but not to be replaced by the far more dangerously incompetent Johnson and Gove.

I'd like to stop hearing about UKIP and giving pointless xenophobia (and a small core of outright bigotry) such a media platform but not at the price of healing the rift that has crippled the tories for 25 years.

I'd like politicians to be more accountable and accessible and the UK to have the final say in application of law, but not at the price of permanently crippling the UK's ability to influence anything in Europe and letting the tories gut all the rights we've gained from the EU.

Basically I'm taking the least shitty end of the stick and I'll be glad when all the high volume lying and counter lying is over.  The campaign has been utterly embarrassing and shameful on both sides and most people involved in the incessant bullshit that has been inflicted upon us should be banned from public speaking forever, and if possible have their voiceboxes and typing fingers surgically removed.  Also most of the media who have reported on this should be replaced with 12 year olds who in general demonstrate better critical thinking and analysis skills and would have a better level of respect for the intelligence of the voting public.  

Can't argue with any of it. The leave lot seem to have about a couple of points why we should get out, but everything always comes back to the same point. £350m (which we get back with interest) and immigration. It also has Boris the Buffoon fronting the campaign.

Better the devil I'm afraid.

[Maesknoll Red]

Inclined to vote leave, but still wavering.  I don't think either option will bring about what I'd like to see, which is an end to the ridiculous world population explosion, religion to be exposed as a sham and for people to be able to live and work in their own countries without fighting over an imaginary man in the sky.  Reasonable immigration and emigration, our countryside to remain green and pleasant land, less crowded roads, no ghetto areas in our country, people integrating, a fairer tax system, change to the voting system in general elections so everyone's vote counts ( if you live in a safe seat ward, does your vote feel like it counts, mine doesn't), more resources put into national health, but with it restructured and run efficiently.  

So, as none of that will be cured be staying or leaving, I am still waiting for something striking to really persuade me one way or other.

[BCFC_Dan]

Stay. There may be flaws in the EU project but that's a reason to stick around and try to fix them, not withdraw into ourselves.

All of Britain's success throughout its history has come when it has engaged with Europe rather than ignoring it. Only by staying in can we help to ensure a free-market trade focussed EU. The French would take every opportunity they could to impose their protectionist ideals on Europe and that would be to everyone's detriment.

Leaving is not the same as not joining. There would be consequences. Other countries might follow and the result would be terrible political instability. War may not be likely in this day and age but they were saying that 110 years ago. There are no guarantees either way but leaving increases the chances of friction and conflict. That is indisputable.

The economic consequences of leaving would be negative. Long term we can't be sure either way, so that's best excluded from the argument. Short to medium term we know there will be a hit. Everyone agrees on it. There would be massive uncertainty and upheaval and that always has a negative impact on the economy. It's ordinary folk who will suffer when that happens. There will be cuts to services and cuts to jobs. The only people likely to do well out of it are lawyers, who will find lots of work sorting out the mess, and stockbrokers, who can exploit volatility.

Some people want to vote leave purely to give the government a kicking. You might not like Cameron and his government, and that's fine, but in the grand scheme of things they're pretty mild. Getting rid of Cameron doesn't get you a Labour government, it gets you a more right-wing Tory one. The Tory outers aren't really interested in controlling immigration or pressure on public services: that's nothing but a dog-whistle to draw working-class support. They want a reduction in regulation in order to pursue an ultra-Thatcherite agenda. You may or may not think that's a good thing but they're deceiving a lot of people who would be opposed to it into supporting them.

Finally, most of the problems that the leavers identify are not caused by the EU at all. Pressure on services is caused by an ageing population, not immigration from the EU, pension deficits are caused by flawed schemes that were never going to work and globalisation isn't going to go away simply because we leave the EU. We'd face the same problems but we'd have less support in dealing with them.

Leave has been very good at identifying problems that people can relate to but their solutions are a fantasy at best. They haven't presented a single concrete idea or fact about life outside the EU and their entire campaign has been a tissue of lies. Remain may be boring and it doesn't promise miracle cures, but boring and safe is often best. Beware of snake-oil merchants.

 

[screech]

Voting Out.

Still haven't seen why we need to have an expansionist super state which can't even look after it's own. I don't like the fact that mass immigration has compressed wages and nobody will take any responsibility for it, although I do understand why if you were an immigrant why you would choose to come. I don't believe for one minute that long term the economy will be any worse than it would be anyway (has shown to be the case) and I am well aware that short term there will be a small recession, which pretty much we are heading for either way.

If you took 28 different people in the street of different backgrounds and wealth and asked them what they want out of life you would have a few opinions the same but most would want different things, that for me is the EU in a nutshell. It's an ideology which in principle is a nice thing but the reality is it is doomed to fail through it's differences. Unfortunately we have the dreamers in charge.

[Red-Robbo]

I will be voting Remain because a significant amount of my business rests on being able to trade in EU states without let or hindrance. 

I was initially undecided as there is much wrong with the EU,  but with domestic demand weak - business confidence is low in the UK and no bugger's spending money!  - it is now obvious that this European trade is vital to Robbo enterprises. 

If barriers - even small or opaque ones - were erected to my ability to win work in the EU and domestic demand fell further - which it would if we Brexit - I would probably have to make redundancies and would be paying a lot less tax to the exchequer. 

And of course, I'm not alone: there are thousands of companies and single contractors in the same position. 

Which is why I think we should think about our pockets - and our children's pockets - and vote Remain.

The referendum debate plus the changing political landscape of Europe means the EU will inevitably have to change and reform, but a deep recession here will be no picnic and once we're out the club the only way we will rejoin is to surrender all the special privelliges we have negotiated over the years.

So vote Remain or I'll send the guys I'll had to let go around. And one of them is a black belt in Taekwondo 

[The Gasbuster]

Remain, for reasons very similar to Robbo.

There are plenty of valid reasons for wanting to leave, but the overriding concern is the economy.

Should we leave, it will take years to re-negotiate deals with other nations. All that time we will have uncertainty over our economy, currency and investment levels. This uncertainty will see the value of sterling fall, and interest rates rise. Levels of business will fall, as organisations reduce their borrowing and spending

Such conditions will reduce investment, and planned schemes will be delayed / shelved, this leaving our economy in a sustained recession.  

Under these conditions; my outgoings will increase, while my income will fall. Not prepared to risk this scenario.

REMAIN.

Edit : I am hoping that another smaller European nation (Denmark for example, who have a high percentage of it's population who want to leave), hold a referendum, and then actually vote to leave. We would then have a much better view of the impact upon leaving.

[Bat Fastard]

I do not like the way that we have allowed the EU to have such a powerful influence over our democracy, which is better when our MPs can make all our laws - because they are accountable and we can vote them out if they displease us.

It is fatuous to claim that migration is not a problem! Its not that I don't like foreigners - I have two sister in law who are from mainland Europe.  The problem is that our infrastructure is strained to breaking point - my wife had to wait two and a half weeks for a doctors appointment and houses are springing up at an alarming rate - not just to help our young people to get on the housing ladder but to house migrants.  Schools, hospitals, social services and roads are also under pressure.  As a society, we must control this flow and it should be OUR MPs who decide immigration policy and not unelected EU bureaucrats.

If we came out of Europe we would still trade with EU countries - just as other independent and none EU countries do.  We do not have to surrender political control of our country and borders just for a declining trading relationship with a declining EU, whose sclerotic rules have strangled trade and impoverished most of the continent of Europe.  My heart bleeds for the youth of Spain, Italy, Portugal and Greece, who are suffering huge youth unemployment, which will impact upon their prosperity for the rest of their lives.  I believe that the EU project is failing the people.

This is the only chance that we will get to come out of the EU. If we remain then the burgers of Brussels will take it as their signal to increase the speed of their failing project.  Our bill for remaining a member will rise, our trading potential in the rest of the World will be stifled and we may even see the imposition of EU armed forces and new accession countries that will further flood our country with low paid and often low skilled migrants.  Our working people will have their incomes kept low and our country would rapidly become unrecognisable as people flock to our "honeypot".  Short term considerations must be put to one side because this could spell disaster for our country and our people.

We are the fifth largest economy in the World and have the international language of business and our laws are largely implemented by many countries around the World - all this gives us a great opportunity to forge ahead with trade links in the wider World.  I have never believed "Project Fear", which I believe is designed to control a gullible and uncertain public into maintaining an unacceptable status quo.  I trust the judgement of Messrs Hargreaves and Lansdown.

My family and I will all be voting out.  I remember when we were conned during the last referendum, when I foolishly voted remain.  It will also taste better to eat fish cause by British boats in British waters and not caught be foreign boats in our waters and then imported! 

[Taz]

You know something, there's more reason on this thread so far than anything that anyone in power has been able to say.

There was an advert from the leave campaign I saw the other day. An older lady was taken into hospital by her daughter (presumably). It was a split screen, one side in the EU and the other Outside the EU. On the in side, she was waiting to be seen in a waiting room that was full of people (all shapes sizes and colours). On the out side, she was able to be seen in a fraction of the time, waiting room was empty, and she was in and out before she had even been seen on the EU side. 

It was painting this lovely picture, just a shame that its all crap.

 

[Milo]

I started off from a position of leaning towards Remain but hoping to hear convincing arguments to Leave.  The 19 countries with the Euro have shown how too much financial integration can be hugely damaging, and means that there will have to be a two tier Europe for years, possibly decades to come; those using the Euro and those not. It’s the fact that we don’t have the Euro that made me wonder whether I could be convinced that the decisions made by the Euro countries would be at the detriment of the other nine non-Euro EU members. Unless I’ve missed it, that case hasn’t been made convincingly and remains a problem whether we’re in or out.

I also started the campaign hearing a respected fund manager conclude that he thought the economic impact of either decision was net neutral. He argued that if we Leave there will be winners and losers, that the Germans will still want us to buy their goods, and that the decision should not necessarily be an economic one. Over the weeks, however, there have been far more predictions by respected, independent and impartial economists predicting that Leave will be more detrimental than Remain. Economists are fascinating beasts who individually should be treated with great caution. But en masse, the consensus forecast is more convincing. If there’s a two horse race and the experts are tipping one horse more than another you would expect short odds on the heavily tipped horse. But this two horse race is even money and it’s therefore a wiser bet to back the consensus view.

In terms of trust, the main Leave campaigners have left me cold. It’s not good enough for Leave campaigners to accept in defence that the £350M a week doesn’t include the money we get back in return. The misleading figure has been bandied about in the knowledge that this is as far as some voters will look. And they also know that many voters are not savvy enough to work out that they cannot spend any money saved more than once as their vacuous promises imply, or that the cost of trade deals is not yet known so it’s unclear whether any money will be saved.  

I can see that the Leave campaign edges the argument on immigration, but Farage’s repugnant poster and it’s echoes of Nazi propaganda should send a chill down all our spines on this issue. Immigration works both ways, will continue and the small advantage of having a bit more control of immigration appears to have a disproportionately heavy price.

I’ve always been dubious of the claim that the EU is not democratic and my research backs up my view that it is democratic. There are clear democratic processes, it’s just that when we vote for a UK parliament they are decision makers for all the UK, but in Europe our say is diluted by the other 28 countries. Over the years it has seemed to me that many of the important laws that protect workers and our rights have emanated from the EU with a British government often dragging its heels. It feels fundamentally safer to me that we benefit from the collective decision making of a diverse group of humans from across a bigger population, rather than the smaller pool of decision makers that comes from just the UK (and historically, often from just one school, Eton).

If we vote Leave expect a hard-right Tory party to compete with an already hard-left Labour party and a big void for those of us who want a centre ground between the needs of business and the needs of workers. Voting to Remain keeps some of the decisions away from extremist UK politicians and might prevent an even further lurch to the right by the Tories.

In my work I deal with clients who are getting divorced. Whatever the grounds for separation, communication between both parties is almost always strained with feelings of guilt, rejection, and distrust remaining years after the separation. This is a human response that will, in my opinion, apply equally if we Leave the EU. Claiming that the Germans and French will want to have trade deals with us so that we can keep buying their goods is like separating parents who know they have to communicate to raise their children. They know that it’s in everyone’s interest to work cooperatively, but the burnt bridges, hurt and raw emotions make the process dysfunctional, unpleasant and hard. Not only is it arrogant to assume EU countries will want to kiss both cheeks and welcome us to the negotiation table, it flies in the face of my experience of how humans communicate. Deals will be done but I don’t believe they will be as good as the ones already in place.

My final reason for voting to Remain is that on Friday morning we will still geographically be in Europe. We won’t be able to change our nearest trading partners, our closest holiday destinations, the places where some of us might most conveniently want to work. Our lives will still therefore be linked to decisions that the EU makes. Our voice may only be a small part of the EU now, but better to have a small say now than none at all. In my role with the Supporters Trust and FAN I frequently feel like banging my head with frustration at decisions the Club makes, sometimes I ask myself whether it’s a good use of my time to keep trying to influence with only seemingly small occasional success. But every time I think that, I realise that I’m still going to watch City, I’m still going to be affected by its decisions and that if supporters are not occasionally sitting round a table and thumping our fists on the table it will be even worse. As civilised humans we know that listening, talking and persuading is the best way to make progress. In the same way that I can’t turn my back on Bristol City I can’t see how it can possibly help us to turn our back on the world.  

In summary, I want economic growth and prosperity, strong laws that protect all citizens, and to talk constructively and cooperatively with my neighbours. For these reasons, I’ll vote Remain.

[Lanterne Rouge]

Already voted remain (postal vote). The main reason is my business is fairly but not totally EU-dependent but I also fear the unknown if we leave.

It`s worth saying that I had changed my mind several times before voting and I suspect I`m not alone.

['Orns]

As others have said @Nibor sums up pretty much how I feel about it

Better the devil you know for me. It's far from ideal, but the fact that no one can put something in front of me to say 'this is how brexit looks in 5, 10, 20 years from now' tells me enough

[Fiale]

Leave:

 

Politically I have voted Lib Dem, Conservative and Labour in General and Council elections. I have no party loyalty, I do not believe that the Tories are the "nasty party", that Labour are the saviours of the working class or that the Lib Dems are in anyway a real Liberal party. I vote on the parties current manifesto's. If the EU were a small group of industrialised countries working together for the greater good, with some marshall plan to help countries coming out of years of communism and dictatorships, build their economies and then join us to pull others up the ladder I would be all for it. But it's not.

 

Immigration: I have no problems with immigration/refugees if people are fleeing persecution or filling roles within our society we cannot fill ourselves. It is pointed out that countries like Australia have higher immigration than us, but it is targeted immigration to fulfil their humanitarian and work place needs. Immigration like that can be catered for, if you know how many people will be using your schools, hospitals, need housing you can build the infrastructure for them, hire the teachers, nurses, Police etc.. it is planned and catered for. Unlimited immigration that we currently have can never be truly catered for.

The youth leaving Romanian and Poland (soon Serbia, Albania, etc) are hurting those countries, how can they build up a economy when their skilled workforce that they pay to train leave for better money elsewhere. The current EU rules simply strip workers form struggling and poor countries for the benefit of those doing well, it's not a caring, socialist policy (though you can understand why corporations like it).

 

I have heard no real reasons for Remain other than leaving would be worse... yet I see Spain, Portugal and Greece struggling, a whole generation pretty much swept under the carpet. I do not believe that Britain needs the zimmer frame of Europe to stand on it's two feet. That we are a great nation in the EU, but if we leave we become a basket case. Economical projections can not be fully trusted, the level of GDP we will lose could be true, it may be false. When you see the dotcom bubble, the ERM debacle, the Euro zone problems, the 2008 crash because economies and governments could not see or predict what was happening - you need to take them with a pinch of salt. The treasury still gets narrow focused yearly forecast wrong, I fail to see how they can project 14 years across the whole economy with any certainty.

If I had to choose a economical model it would not be the US - I know it's the largest economy in the world, but the hope the population had in the 50's and 60's has withered and died. The EU economically still wishes to emulate the US, putting corporations and the pursuit of profits above people, politicians in corporations hands with political decisions being made so distantly, voters cannot effect change or get recourse, this is not what I want. 

There is a lot more obviously. I wish the EU was something else, that could be good for the people, and prosperous for everyone, but it simply is not what I want. I would never vote to join this union as it stands, and I cannot see how it can be reformed when the UK even with the biggest bargaining chip the EU has ever seen can get no changes. Maybe us leaving will help other EU countries get what they want, that it will be a wake up call to the EU to change, but currently it's unreformable, and not something I wish to be part of, and why I am voting to leave.

 

 

[Barry Sheene]

Always been a leave for one simple reason which is my profession.

I have been doing my job for the last thirty years and since the influx of foreign labour from the EU my wages have frozen and I geniuely feel that I will be replaced by the cheaper foreign labour.

 

[Welcome To The Jungle]

On 20/06/2016 at 17:31, TRL said:

I vote leave. Not on immigration, not on scaremongering from remain, not for crap spouted by Brexit leaders. I I vote leave as I disagree with the way the EU treats its weaker members, how it willing devalues and deskills what it sees as weaker countries. How it rides roughshod over citizens of said countries.

 

The longer we stay the more interwoven we become into this self obsessed government by proxy which eventually will lead to a European superstars which we will no longer have the control to stay or leave.

 

What the EU has done to Greece and Cyprus made my mind up a long time ago

This and this alone was my argument for leaving. I sat on the fence for ages but eventually came down on remain, however it was close. **** off Germany

[Guest]

I see nothing credible in a leave.

On the economic side leave point to us being 5th biggest economy globally. Are they really suggesting that this is in spite of our EU membership, that our EU membership has not perhaps allowed/supported that to happen and to us flourishing? And yet none have made any claim of improving our economy outside of the EU. Indeed some have accepted our economy may initially suffer. So any claims of "Grand Brittania - 5th largest economy" to me seem to be misplaced as they are tacitly accepting being within the EU has enabled our economy to grow.

On trade with the rest of the world they point to us doing more trade with the RoW than the single market. That being so, are we really that hamstrung by being in the EU v our international trading partners? That seems a nonsense to me.

On us not being hit with tariffs outside the EU unsustainable in my eyes. No one from remain will claim EU membership is without a fee. Without that fee in to the EU what's the next best way to recoup that? Tariffs. EU products might be more expensive to us to buy, but we will still buy EU products even with the premium. The German car industry might be per some worried about tariffs but are we really going to shift our buying habits? I doubt it.

On our ability to negotiate better tariffs with the rest of the world I just don't see it. We manufacture very little. Manufacturing in the third world (our trading panacea in a Brexit) will undercut us always. It will because of less regulation, less "red-tape", less workers rights, lower standards in quality and lower environmental costs. What do we bring to the table better than the buying power of the whole of the EU?

Leave tell us workers rights are protected in a Brexit. That's true, although vulnerable. Workers rights protected by EU Directive have direct effect on UK Govts. If the UK Govt, or an employer, did not protect a workers rights then the worker can directly enforce them whilst in the EU. If we leave then a UK Govt can simply not enforce or repeal protection. Therefore, whilst there is protection, there is a removal of the level and we are reliant on a Govt that delivered zero hours contracts...?

As for migration leave are not even claiming to get the numbers down. What they claim is better, targetted migration. What I'm yet to be presented by anyone is numbers for how many Doctors, Nurses etc were turned down the right to work in the UK recently .Why, because I suspect it doesn't support leave's claim. In any case, are we really at critical mass? We may have uncontrolled EU migration but are we not worrying about potential than reality? Is the bigger issue facing us not migration but an ageing population which is living longer and a number of citizens approaching retirement age with insufficient retirement savings? Are these not the issues facing public sector services; will reduced migration have any noticeable effect in the face of this, I doubt it.