Summer 16 Recruitment.

[Nomad]

Much credit has been given on here to LJ and MA for a great summer recruitment campaign but when you compare the back end of last season and now, what has really changed?

As Tomlin and Matthews were here last season lets ignore them as they maintain the status quo. I'd also say the sale of JK and the incoming loan of TA as roughly balancing themselves out.

So, other than that?.... I'd have expected the other incoming players to have improved us but we seem not to have advanced. It looks to me that although we (thanks SL) spent quite a bit of money we have added just one regular in Magnusson. He's been a great addition and I think more accomplished than Baker whom he replaced.

But did we really buy Patterson, O'Dowda, Moore and Engvall for the future? Moore I accept but would like to see given more play time of after his impressive Hull game. The fact that none of them have managed to dislodge a regular is worrying. If we work on the premise that incoming players should improve us did we really get it right?

The back end of last season saw a quite settled side with Pack and Reid regulars in the starting line up. I'm fully behind LJ but for me not having a generally settled side is doing us no favours. Do any successful teams make so many changes in tactics and personnel week in week out? I say no. Find the best 11 and barring injuries, form and suspensions stick to it. Rather than advancing us I think the recruitment (good as it appears on paper) has just caused issues in tactics and starting line up (midfield in particular).

[MarkRed!]

100% right Nomad. I don't understand why we keep chopping and changing and I have been surprised that we have not see Paterson, Odowda or Brownhill more. Brownhill looked some player for Barnsley and he has not really had a look in. The championship is such a tight league and it is hard to be picky but I think LJ does not know his best 11 or how to accommodate Tomlin or Abraham effectively. Tammy, despite his size, wants the ball on the deck yet he is consistently having to fight for arial balls which he does not win. he cannot hold the ball up when it is played into him like this and as a result he is "isolated".  My final point - surely a 2.5 million striker must get a game if he is fit.....and surely he would be ahead of Wilbraham..... think LJ has lost the plot on this.

We may now actually have the squad to play 352 as well and I am surprised it has not really been tried.

FF

TM, AF, HM

AM JB MP BR JB

LT TA

[Spoons]

Panic , panic, panic !!! Sack the board and the manger !!

why do people on otib really start stirring when we are possibly in the best place on/ off the field in years.

joke

[Nomad]

8 minutes ago, Spoons said:

Panic , panic, panic !!! Sack the board and the manger !!

why do people on otib really start stirring when we are possibly in the best place on/ off the field in years.

joke

Who said anything about sacking anyone? Or panicking? If you can't contribute then don't post. You bore me.

[Tipps69]

27 minutes ago, Nomad said:

Much credit has been given on here to LJ and MA for a great summer recruitment campaign but when you compare the back end of last season and now, what has really changed?

As Tomlin and Matthews were here last season lets ignore them as they maintain the status quo. I'd also say the sale of JK and the incoming loan of TA as roughly balancing themselves out.

So, other than that?.... I'd have expected the other incoming players to have improved us but we seem not to have advanced. It looks to me that although we (thanks SL) spent quite a bit of money we have added just one regular in Magnusson. He's been a great addition and I think more accomplished than Baker whom he replaced.

But did we really buy Patterson, O'Dowda, Moore and Engvall for the future? Moore I accept but would like to see given more play time of after his impressive Hull game. The fact that none of them have managed to dislodge a regular is worrying. If we work on the premise that incoming players should improve us did we really get it right?

The back end of last season saw a quite settled side with Pack and Reid regulars in the starting line up. I'm fully behind LJ but for me not having a generally settled side is doing us no favours. Do any successful teams make so many changes in tactics and personnel week in week out? I say no. Find the best 11 and barring injuries, form and suspensions stick to it. Rather than advancing us I think the recruitment (good as it appears on paper) has just caused issues in tactics and starting line up (midfield in particular).

I get what you're saying & I guess what has actually been achieved is that we have a bit more strength in depth although I think we would of been better off strengthening the first 11 & not the lower squad players although I do believe it has been done with an eye on the future as O'Dowda, Brownhill, Taylor & Engvall are all young & we probably got them cheaper by picking them up in the summer than what we would of if we had tried to get them in a year or two's time when they would arguably be first team ready.

I also think this has complicated things as regards to LJ knowing his best 11 & what formation he wants / needs to play as he has probably hoped for a bigger influence from one or two of those younger recruits.

After today I would say LJ needs a first choice dominant keeper, a central midfielder who can dominate & dictate play, a natural right midfielder who will give us width & pace who is willing to get at his full-back & a striker or two as Tammy will be gone in the summer & Wilbraham is past his best. All of these need to be first team ready now, not in a season or two & then the younger lads can be allowed to develop with less pressure & LJ will be able to do his one on one coaching to improve these lads now that he has his coaching team as he wants it.

If we are going to consistently spend £2m on players now, they need to be first team ready & able to improve our starting 11, not our subs bench.

[Spoons]

14 minutes ago, Nomad said:

Who said anything about sacking anyone? Or panicking? If you can't contribute then don't post. You bore me.

Well you bore me , think you've been playing to much football manger!!

litreally embarrassing , go back to your day job.

[Nomad]

5 minutes ago, Tipps69 said:

I get what you're saying & I guess what has actually been achieved is that we have a bit more strength in depth although I think we would of been better off strengthening the first 11 & not the lower squad players although I do believe it has been done with an eye on the future as O'Dowda, Brownhill, Taylor & Engvall are all young & we probably got them cheaper by picking them up in the summer than what we would of if we had tried to get them in a year or two's time when they would arguably be first team ready.

I also think this has complicated things as regards to LJ knowing his best 11 & what formation he wants / needs to play as he has probably hoped for a bigger influence from one or two of those younger recruits.

After today I would say LJ needs a first choice dominant keeper, a central midfielder who can dominate & dictate play, a natural right midfielder who will give us width & pace who is willing to get at his full-back & a striker or two as Tammy will be gone in the summer & Wilbraham is past his best. All of these need to be first team ready now, not in a season or two & then the younger lads can be allowed to develop with less pressure & LJ will be able to do his one on one coaching to improve these lads now that he has his coaching team as he wants it.

If we are going to consistently spend £2m on players now, they need to be first team ready & able to improve our starting 11, not our subs bench.

I agree but thought we were only bringing in players to strengthen and not add a lot of squad players. Maybe that's why I feel we haven't improved. 

We all know what will happen if we keep increasing the squad size - discontent and a rising salary bill. I'm all for giving the younger players time but don't want us to keep spending and not giving the incoming players enough game time.

[Nomad]

3 minutes ago, Spoons said:

Well you bore me , think you've been playing to much football manger!!

litreally embarrassing , go back to your day job.

Never played it young un. Go back to school.

[Spoons]

3 minutes ago, Nomad said:

Never played it young un. Go back to school.

Left school long time ago, maybe ask for it as a Xmas present ? By the way you talk old boy I think your be quite good at it, you sound a expert in football. 

[Spoons]

4 minutes ago, Thatch35 said:

Again. ..nothing to contribute

Agreed , I'm a reader who can't help but bite to the tripe that is written on here. 

Some of you lot on here are embarrassing .

[Nomad]

5 minutes ago, Spoons said:

Agreed , I'm a reader who can't help but bite to the tripe that is written on here. 

Some of you lot on here are embarrassing .

By all means disagree with me, with @Thatch35 or however you like but please..... Have some balls and a point of view or you'll just be embarrassing.

[Spoons]

5 minutes ago, Nomad said:

By all means disagree with me, with @Thatch35 or however you like but please..... Have some balls and a point of view or you'll just be embarrassing.

My point of view is that reading your posts you think you have more of a football/ business brain than our current manger and Chief executive .. This makes me laugh. We are in good hands. The boat doesn't need rocking.

[Tipps69]

2 hours ago, Nomad said:

I agree but thought we were only bringing in players to strengthen and not add a lot of squad players. Maybe that's why I feel we haven't improved. 

We all know what will happen if we keep increasing the squad size - discontent and a rising salary bill. I'm all for giving the younger players time but don't want us to keep spending and not giving the incoming players enough game time.

I think after our failure in the transfer window of the previous summer, where we only brought JK in permanently, we had to get more bodies on board & especially with there being no emergency loan signings allowed & I guess I would much prefer us to sign players who should increase in value over time rather than 30+ year olds who are here only for their last pay cheque before dropping out of the game. The business done does seem to mean that we have less dead wood sat in the squad but I agree that by now I would hope that LJ had a clear idea of what his best eleven is & what formation he should play. The problem could be that LJ knows what formation he wants to play but doesn't have the necessary players to play that formation or to play his best eleven players means playing a formation that he doesn't want to use? But as things stand at the moment there seems to be a lack of urgency in the team play & a lack of anyone taking responsibility on the pitch.

[JoeAman08]

I think we did a fantastic job recruiting in the summer. Moore and Brownhill seemed more for the future. I thought we'd have seen a lot more of O'Dowda and Engvall though. Paterson seemed like someone to buy because he became available and has a mixture of youth and experience. Tomlin and Matthews for the wages and fees have probably been the biggest "disappointments" though. Matthews hasn't featured enough or been good enough in most of those. Tomlin is tricky and no doubt is well watched by the opposition opening up space for others but he needs to score and assist a few more for me. GON been a solid addition and TA has been excellent. 

Was a good summer. Just struggling to gel it all together with the youth we have

[Shelton’s Love Gravy]

[Tipps69]

11 minutes ago, JoeAman08 said:

I think we did a fantastic job recruiting in the summer. Moore and Brownhill seemed more for the future. I thought we'd have seen a lot more of O'Dowda and Engvall though. Paterson seemed like someone to buy because he became available and has a mixture of youth and experience. Tomlin and Matthews for the wages and fees have probably been the biggest "disappointments" though. Matthews hasn't featured enough or been good enough in most of those. Tomlin is tricky and no doubt is well watched by the opposition opening up space for others but he needs to score and assist a few more for me. GON been a solid addition and TA has been excellent. 

Was a good summer. Just struggling to gel it all together with the youth we have

I think as is often said, newcomers take time to settle into their new surroundings & new ways of doing things & different team mates. We started great as the opposition didn't know what to expect & we were able to capitalise on it but now we have been worked out (stop Tomlin & Tammy & pressure), we seemingly have no plan B & to many new signings (that was needed in my opinion) has left LJ confused with what he has & how to use it.

[JoeAman08]

15 minutes ago, Tipps69 said:

I think as is often said, newcomers take time to settle into their new surroundings & new ways of doing things & different team mates. We started great as the opposition didn't know what to expect & we were able to capitalise on it but now we have been worked out (stop Tomlin & Tammy & pressure), we seemingly have no plan B & to many new signings (that was needed in my opinion) has left LJ confused with what he has & how to use it.

I think that's spot on. I was surprised at how quick we started because of all the new faces. Similarly I'm surprised at how poorly we've been lately as we've been together now for a bit. Hopefully, the new coach and a prolonged period of time together(no international breaks) will do us some good. 

[milo1111]

i think once the transfer window had shut and Kodjia went and we couldnt replace him, LJ saw us playing 4231 but the problem has been that odowda and patterson have been disappointing..... although you could argue that odowda hasnt had much of a chance to stake a claim. to the extent neither even made the bench today which is crazy as we paid 7 figure fees for both of them. weve had tomlin wide left at times when to me he is best in the 10 role. bryans played wide att midfield, so has brownhill, freeman and all in all its not really settled down and needs sorting. thats what the problem is - there is not one single formation that suits our squad. the closest thing is probably 4231 but we havent got the quality strong pacey wide AM's that some other clubs have got so we never play at a decent enough tempo with that system (like Huddersfield did today or reading did 1st half). if we had those types of players making the runs and working with tommo in the ten role we'd be laughing IMO.

thats where we are falling down basically our wingers are ****.

[shelts]

Are we good enough to give Tomlin a free role. 

[Tipps69]

25 minutes ago, shelts said:

Are we good enough to give Tomlin a free role. 

Only in a 4-2-3-1 formation but that requires 2 decent wide attackers which we don't currently have or a 4-4-1-1 formation which again requires the wide midfielders to be all purpose & not just interested in going forward or when they have the ball.

We need more players who are tactically aware off of the ball as well as on it & we just seem to lack a hunger in the team, that will to win at all costs. We've gone back to being too nice again.

[reddoh]

13 hours ago, Nomad said:

Who said anything about sacking anyone? Or panicking? If you can't contribute then don't post. You bore me.

Everybody has an opinion , if you don't like ignore , if you don't like a post attack the post not the poster

[sglosbcfc]

9 hours ago, milo1111 said:

i think once the transfer window had shut and Kodjia went and we couldnt replace him, LJ saw us playing 4231 but the problem has been that odowda and patterson have been disappointing..... although you could argue that odowda hasnt had much of a chance to stake a claim. to the extent neither even made the bench today which is crazy as we paid 7 figure fees for both of them. weve had tomlin wide left at times when to me he is best in the 10 role. bryans played wide att midfield, so has brownhill, freeman and all in all its not really settled down and needs sorting. thats what the problem is - there is not one single formation that suits our squad. the closest thing is probably 4231 but we havent got the quality strong pacey wide AM's that some other clubs have got so we never play at a decent enough tempo with that system (like Huddersfield did today or reading did 1st half). if we had those types of players making the runs and working with tommo in the ten role we'd be laughing IMO.

thats where we are falling down basically our wingers are ****.

You're really writing off our young wingers when they haven't even been at the club for 6 months, unbelievable! O'Dowda has obviously impressed Roy Keane and Martin O Neill who continue to pick him for Ireland squads.

[ashton_fan]

13 hours ago, Nomad said:

Much credit has been given on here to LJ and MA for a great summer recruitment campaign but when you compare the back end of last season and now, what has really changed?

As Tomlin and Matthews were here last season lets ignore them as they maintain the status quo. I'd also say the sale of JK and the incoming loan of TA as roughly balancing themselves out.

So, other than that?.... I'd have expected the other incoming players to have improved us but we seem not to have advanced. It looks to me that although we (thanks SL) spent quite a bit of money we have added just one regular in Magnusson. He's been a great addition and I think more accomplished than Baker whom he replaced.

But did we really buy Patterson, O'Dowda, Moore and Engvall for the future? Moore I accept but would like to see given more play time of after his impressive Hull game. The fact that none of them have managed to dislodge a regular is worrying. If we work on the premise that incoming players should improve us did we really get it right?

The back end of last season saw a quite settled side with Pack and Reid regulars in the starting line up. I'm fully behind LJ but for me not having a generally settled side is doing us no favours. Do any successful teams make so many changes in tactics and personnel week in week out? I say no. Find the best 11 and barring injuries, form and suspensions stick to it. Rather than advancing us I think the recruitment (good as it appears on paper) has just caused issues in tactics and starting line up (midfield in particular).

The summer transfers weren't only about improving quality but increasing numbers because of the rule changes to the loan system. In previous seasons we have run with smaller squads and got in loans when required, which led to having a fairly settled team. Now we have to run with a larger squad and players have to be given a chance to keep the squad's morale up, which has led to more changes in the starting eleven each week. It's now more of a problem for LJ to find his best team, and even when he does to keep the rest happy.

[Nomad]

13 minutes ago, reddoh said:

Everybody has an opinion , if you don't like ignore , if you don't like a post attack the post not the poster

Pot kettle black. He did not express an opinion. He suggested I wanted the manager/board sacked - how he got that from my post I have no idea.

[Nomad]

4 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

The summer transfers weren't only about improving quality but increasing numbers because of the rule changes to the loan system. In previous seasons we have run with smaller squads and got in loans when required, which led to having a fairly settled team. Now we have to run with a larger squad and players have to be given a chance to keep the squad's morale up, which has led to more changes in the starting eleven each week. It's now more of a problem for LJ to find his best team, and even when he does to keep the rest happy.

Good point.

[Pezo]

So basically what your saying is any long term plan has to produce within 6 months? And as far as I can tell every player has to play in the first team if they are better than other players or not?

[Nomad]

3 minutes ago, Pezo said:

So basically what your saying is any long term plan has to produce within 6 months? And as far as I can tell every player has to play in the first team if they are better than other players or not?

My post does not say that at all. 

[downendcity]

I wonder whether one of the main decisions that needs to be made is whether our recruitment is based on playing a formation and style designed to play to our strengths or whether we need a squad that enables the manager to always counter the strengths of the opposition.

Listening to MOTD last night and one of the pundits ( Murphy I think) commented that Quardiola has made more changes to his starting 11 than any other prem manager. He went on to question how an players build playing relationships if they are playing alongside different players all the time. I wonder whether this is a problem we have as we rarely play an unchanged team, notwithstanding changes forced by injury or suspensions.

 

[Tipps69]

13 minutes ago, downendcity said:

I wonder whether one of the main decisions that needs to be made is whether our recruitment is based on playing a formation and style designed to play to our strengths or whether we need a squad that enables the manager to always counter the strengths of the opposition.

Listening to MOTD last night and one of the pundits ( Murphy I think) commented that Quardiola has made more changes to his starting 11 than any other prem manager. He went on to question how an players build playing relationships if they are playing alongside different players all the time. I wonder whether this is a problem we have as we rarely play an unchanged team, notwithstanding changes forced by injury or suspensions.

 

My personal opinion is that while our summer recruitment was great (on paper at least), it has left LJ with a lot of new players who he has to learn all the little intricacies of & that has meant him chasing the mistakes which has meant changing numerous players after individual errors & changing formations while he tries to fit those replacement players onto the pitch & it's not allowing him to work with a settled team or formation. Now that could be down to him not having the right players available for the formation he wants to play (lack of a reliable 2nd striker, lack of a natural right midfielder / winger & as he has said previously, it will take him 3 transfer windows before he thinks he'll have "his" team, so in theory we have to wait a year before "his" team will be on the pitch.

The problem has come because our (as in the fans) expectations were lifted massively after the summer window & the start that we made & now when we drop points too many people are getting upset about it because they are expecting wins all the time (or the majority of the time).

[BCFC Rich]

19 hours ago, Nomad said:

Much credit has been given on here to LJ and MA for a great summer recruitment campaign but when you compare the back end of last season and now, what has really changed?

As Tomlin and Matthews were here last season lets ignore them as they maintain the status quo. I'd also say the sale of JK and the incoming loan of TA as roughly balancing themselves out.

 

To be honest, I don't really agree with your overall opinion. You also ask us to buy into it by trying to ignore facts. As we had two of our better signings on loan lets not count them? Easy to say but getting them here is part of our summer business and (particularly in Tomlin's case) shouldn't be dismissed. What would you say if we signed Tammy in the summer, well thats a unbelievable coo but lets not count that as we already had him on loan (obviously signing Tammy would be a bigger deal but you get my point).

Lets also forget the sale of JK as Tammy cancels that out! Lets just ignore that our summer business netted us £12mil (ish) in profit! Because that as not important?

Then the team, shall we also ignore the fact that the new signings have pushed on the performances of established players? That we have more options now and lots of potential for the future? That we are playing better football? That last season we were down at the bottom?

Or should we look at the opening run of games this we had this season admit that we all got a bit over excited and that finishing mid table would be great progress and a great achievement this year.