Transfers for the Future

[alexukhc]

I've been thinking lately, so seeing as we made signings for the future, why not for now? It sounds simple as, but it's beyond baffling me, what does it mean? When will they be ready? Next season? 

[Lanterne Rouge]

3 minutes ago, alexukhc said:

I've been thinking lately, so seeing as we made signings for the future, why not for now? It sounds simple as, but it's beyond baffling me, what does it mean? When will they be ready? Next season? 

That`s how I see things I think, certainly Jonny Smith, Lucic, Engvall, Moore and O`Dowda seem to fit that profile. I`m not sure about Paterson and Brownhill though, they should be ready now IMO.

[alexukhc]

4 minutes ago, Red Right Hand said:

That`s how I see things I think, certainly Jonny Smith, Lucic, Engvall, Moore and O`Dowda seem to fit that profile. I`m not sure about Paterson and Brownhill though, they should be ready now IMO.

It's a big gamble, if we don't sign players for now we will sure as hell be fighting relegation again and are these players ready for that? just throw in some newish faces and hope for the best? 

[Phileas Fogg]

11 minutes ago, alexukhc said:

I've been thinking lately, so seeing as we made signings for the future, why not for now? It sounds simple as, but it's beyond baffling me, what does it mean? When will they be ready? Next season? 

Because it's prudent to buy players with potential now than wait 2 years and pay 4x as much.

In theory we'd benefit from their talents that would help get us promoted or sell them on for a big profit.

As for 'when' - it obviously varies player to player. Not all will reach their potential but if a couple do and we sell on for a big fee overall we'll make a profit.

[alexukhc]

7 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Because it's prudent to buy players with potential now than wait 2 years and pay 4x as much.

In theory we'd benefit from their talents that would help get us promoted or sell them on for a big profit.

As for 'when' - it obviously varies player to player. Not all will reach their potential but if a couple do and we sell on for a big fee overall we'll make a profit.

Yea I guess, I'm sure they will come good, the Kodjia signing wasn't bad profit, I'm just impatient and would like to of seen the newer players more by now, give the confidence to make them better players

[Phileas Fogg]

27 minutes ago, alexukhc said:

Yea I guess, I'm sure they will come good, the Kodjia signing wasn't bad profit, I'm just impatient and would like to of seen the newer players more by now, give the confidence to make them better players

I can understand that, it's always exciting to see new players. I think though it's a case of breaking them in gradually and getting them used to a high level of football before they'll be at their most effective.

[BobBobSuperBob]

7 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I can understand that, it's always exciting to see new players. I think though it's a case of breaking them in gradually and getting them used to a high level of football before they'll be at their most effective.

My concern with this PF is that all that is dependent on our management and coaching team being able / good enough to improve and 'develop' them

Early days I know but can you honestly say we have seen any tiny improvement in any of them as yet. 

Most of them have, as such slipped 'backwards' and been involved initially but  at the present time discarded

I hope my concerns are totally unjustified and everything works out ok or even better, well

All this philosophy and talk of 'they're for the future' will sound better when fans can see some progress

[alexukhc]

10 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

My concern with this PF is that all that is dependent on our management and coaching team being able / good enough to improve and 'develop' them

Early days I know but can you honestly say we have seen any tiny improvement in any of them as yet. 

Most of them have, as such slipped 'backwards' and been involved initially but  at the present time discarded

I hope my concerns are totally unjustified and everything works out ok or even better, well

All this philosophy and talk of 'they're for the future' will sound better when fans can see some progress

100%

[Phileas Fogg]

7 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

My concern with this PF is that all that is dependent on our management and coaching team being able / good enough to improve and 'develop' them

Early days I know but can you honestly say we have seen any tiny improvement in any of them as yet. 

Most of them have, as such slipped 'backwards' and been involved initially but  at the present time discarded

I hope my concerns are totally unjustified and everything works out ok or even better, well

All this philosophy and talk of 'they're for the future' will sound better when fans can see some progress

I guess it depends on how much time they're given to develop. Magnusson has looked very good this season as one of the 'young with potential' buys.

The likes of Johnny Smith and De Girolamo probably weren't meant to be anywhere near this season.

I like what I've seen of Taylor Moore, but he's a centre half not a right back so difficult for him to break in. Going on Johnson's press conference he's nearly there and were it not for the new altered loan rules would've been sent out to league 1 to get a loan.

Lucic will need a good run of games before we know either way with him. By all accounts he's very talented. Keepers, more than anyone else, need a solid run of games before they get into a groove and work well with the defence. I think his erratic style and second language English will mean his bedding in period is even longer. 

O'Dowda looks, in glimpses, like a player we lack. Fast, direct, good crossing and give us some genuine width. Felt we lacked that on Saturday. Don't know whether he's quite confident in his own ability at this level yet, looks slightly naive when I've seen him but that'll come. 

Then Engvall - well, who knows what's going on there. I think we as a fan base just aren't used to the club paying in excess of £1m for players who appear so irregularly. It's something we'll have to become used to though as it's the going rate for talented young players. I don't know whether it's his injuries, adapting to coming to England or just he simply isn't good enough and we made a big mistake. Hopefully he'll prove his worth in the second half of the season.

Overall - on reflection I don't think that's too bad a list. Big question mark over Engvall obviously but no one has really seen enough to judge. 

[phantom]

12 hours ago, alexukhc said:

I've been thinking lately, so seeing as we made signings for the future, why not for now? It sounds simple as, but it's beyond baffling me, what does it mean? When will they be ready? Next season? 

 

12 hours ago, Red Right Hand said:

That`s how I see things I think, certainly Jonny Smith, Lucic, Engvall, Moore and O`Dowda seem to fit that profile. I`m not sure about Paterson and Brownhill though, they should be ready now IMO.

Seems to be somewhere between developing the academy players to be ready in 2/34 years time, to buying someone ready for now !

Saying that - there is always that cliche about players needing time to settle.

Question is, Is a player EVER ready to fit straight in?

[phantom]

10 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I guess it depends on how much time they're given to develop. Magnusson has looked very good this season as one of the 'young with potential' buys.

The likes of Johnny Smith and De Girolamo probably weren't meant to be anywhere near this season.

I like what I've seen of Taylor Moore, but he's a centre half not a right back so difficult for him to break in. Going on Johnson's press conference he's nearly there and were it not for the new altered loan rules would've been sent out to league 1 to get a loan.

Lucic will need a good run of games before we know either way with him. By all accounts he's very talented. Keepers, more than anyone else, need a solid run of games before they get into a groove and work well with the defence. I think his erratic style and second language English will mean his bedding in period is even longer. 

O'Dowda looks, in glimpses, like a player we lack. Fast, direct, good crossing and give us some genuine width. Felt we lacked that on Saturday. Don't know whether he's quite confident in his own ability at this level yet, looks slightly naive when I've seen him but that'll come. 

Then Engvall - well, who knows what's going on there. I think we as a fan base just aren't used to the club paying in excess of £1m for players who appear so irregularly. It's something we'll have to become used to though as it's the going rate for talented young players. I don't know whether it's his injuries, adapting to coming to England or just he simply isn't good enough and we made a big mistake. Hopefully he'll prove his worth in the second half of the season.

Overall - on reflection I don't think that's too bad a list. Big question mark over Engvall obviously but no one has really seen enough to judge. 

Of course the concern has to be IF they don't make it, how much ££ have we chucked away?

Like above, they have all shown "glimpses" but none are currently knocking on the door or look like having any impact on the squad

[Major Isewater]

32 minutes ago, phantom said:

 

Seems to be somewhere between developing the academy players to be ready in 2/34 years time, to buying someone ready for now !

Saying that - there is always that cliche about players needing time to settle.

Question is, Is a player EVER ready to fit straight in?

If they're not ready in 34 years I reckon we should move them on .

 

Except Our Academy players obviously.

 

[Major Isewater]

8 minutes ago, phantom said:

Of course the concern has to be IF they don't make it, how much ££ have we chucked away?

Like above, they have all shown "glimpses" but none are currently knocking on the door or look like having any impact on the squad

If they don't make it the loss would be less than an expensive player who does n't do the business.

Any transfer is a gamble, how many megabucks players arrive here only to be shipped out pronto stamped ' Failed '.

Was n't Di Maria at Man Utd the world's record  transfer at the time of his signing ? 

So , accepting that any signing is a gamble , buying youngsters on wages and fees that correspond to potential means the losses for those that don't make it are reduced in relation to Mr William Largeballs who swans into the club with a team of agents and bleeds the budget dry .

Moreover , the sell on value for those that make it , as seen with Kodjia, is higher.

All in all, modern football is a nightmare financially, even for the big clubs , one day it will all go chest up and I will be very happy.

These days the actual game is of secondary importance to the money and the ' personalities ' .

Frock Mourinho , Frock Klopp, Frock Wenger and all the rest of The twisted egotistical wassocks who dominate our beloved game .

 

[Davefevs]

Engvall is definitely hoping for more minutes.  He admitted that the knee injury he came here with hasn't helped, but he's definitely ready now.  He said that he likes to mix it up a bit, playing on the shoulder but also likes to find pockets of space as well as 'clever' runs (his words) in behind. Says he can be quite physical too.

So on the face of it he has a good all round game.  I'm looking forward to seeing it.  He looked like he had that v Hull.

[phantom]

48 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

If they don't make it the loss would be less than an expensive player who does n't do the business.

Any transfer is a gamble, how many megabucks players arrive here only to be shipped out pronto stamped ' Failed '.

Was n't Di Maria at Man Utd the world's record  transfer at the time of his signing ? 

So , accepting that any signing is a gamble , buying youngsters on wages and fees that correspond to potential means the losses for those that don't make it are reduced in relation to Mr William Largeballs who swans into the club with a team of agents and bleeds the budget dry .

Moreover , the sell on value for those that make it , as seen with Kodjia, is higher.

All in all, modern football is a nightmare financially, even for the big clubs , one day it will all go chest up and I will be very happy.

These days the actual game is of secondary importance to the money and the ' personalities ' .

Frock Mourinho , Frock Klopp, Frock Wenger and all the rest of The twisted egotistical wassocks who dominate our beloved game .

 

The difference is, the sides you mentioned ALREADY have quality players in place and the gamble isn't so big

We probably need to realise that no only do we need players for the FUTURE, BUT we also need players for NOW !

[BCFC_Dan]

Johnson's comments this week suggest that he recognises the need for a couple of players who will improve the squad right now.

They also show that he knows we can't sign players who will have every single attribute required (i.e. pace, technique, strength etc.). We will have to compromise somewhere and the comments made combined with the needs of the squad suggests to me that we'll be looking for something of a battering ram forward to give us a bit of physical presence but that he probably won't be the most skilful player we've ever seen.

With many of the previous signings the compromise has been that the players aren't ready yet. You take a gamble and hope that you're getting yourself a good player on the cheap. But you have to have enough in the squad right now to compete, and we're borderline in that respect.

Basically, for a club in our position there are 3 options regarding transfers:

1. Pay massively over the odds for established players

2. Buy experienced by limited players more cheaply

3. Buy young players and hope they turn out to be of the required standard

At various times over the years, City have tried all 3 of those options. Johnson, to his credit, seems to recognise that the best route may be a blend of all three. Hence we've shelled out for established players in key positions (Tomlin*, O'Neill [wages won't be cheap]), bought young players for the future, and now we're looking at number 2 which will probably be more the sort of players that Johnson Sr used to bring in (hopefully when he was good at it).

 

* Actually I'd buy the argument that Tomlin fits better into category 2. He's limited by his workrate and attitude, otherwise he'd be a Premier League player and cost 10 times as much.

[LeeCity]

I'm a bit fed up hearing this 'one for the future'....we've taken Tammy from Chelsea and he's one for their future ! (Though I don't see it)

 

If we've any ambition we need players for now and in particular a striker, we've got money it's time to spend.

Let's show our hand, Jordan Rhodes, Scott Hogan.....both of them !

 

[Major Isewater]

1 hour ago, phantom said:

The difference is, the sides you mentioned ALREADY have quality players in place and the gamble isn't so big

We probably need to realise that no only do we need players for the FUTURE, BUT we also need players for NOW !

Of course we need the quality now .

It's obscene the money that has gone out of the game on ' flops '  ,anonymous Carlos Kikaballs with the only winners being Ballotelli's agent .

Makes I mad 

[Nomad]

14 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Because it's prudent to buy players with potential now than wait 2 years and pay 4x as much.

In theory we'd benefit from their talents that would help get us promoted or sell them on for a big profit.

As for 'when' - it obviously varies player to player. Not all will reach their potential but if a couple do and we sell on for a big fee overall we'll make a profit.

I don't disagree with your comments but the length of contract is also important. If the following all take 2 years to establish themselves then can walk away on a Bosman free or hang on a further year and do the same. 

O'Dowda - 3yr contract
Engvall - 3yr + 1yr ext
Moore - 3yr
Brownhill - 2yr
Smith - 2yr
De Girolamo - 1yr

 

[alexukhc]

Think De Girolamo will sign a new one soon tbh

[Chappers]

Buying for now give you a short term fix, but means that you just keep spending for little return, and we just cannot compete with the bigger clubs using that strategy. The current set up will take time, but hopefully in 3/4 years will bear fruit, and enable us to continue attracting better young players, making the Club sustainable for the future. Just be patient.

[Fiale]

18 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Because it's prudent to buy players with potential now than wait 2 years and pay 4x as much.

In theory we'd benefit from their talents that would help get us promoted or sell them on for a big profit.

As for 'when' - it obviously varies player to player. Not all will reach their potential but if a couple do and we sell on for a big fee overall we'll make a profit.

 

3 hours ago, Nomad said:

I don't disagree with your comments but the length of contract is also important. If the following all take 2 years to establish themselves then can walk away on a Bosman free or hang on a further year and do the same. 

O'Dowda - 3yr contract
Engvall - 3yr + 1yr ext
Moore - 3yr
Brownhill - 2yr
Smith - 2yr
De Girolamo - 1yr

 

 

This is my worry. We spoke about it not long ago.

These players generally are not even getting on the sub bench, so unlikely they will walk into the first team next season, so maybe will be subs and hope to start the odd game next season ? But at that point in all effect their contracts are up. They have spent a year not playing for the first team, a year on the sub bench. At that point they hit contract renewal territory. If they do not sign that's a lot of transfer fees just gone up in smoke, and a lot of wasted time and effort. 

[tts_city]

32 minutes ago, Chappers said:

Buying for now give you a short term fix, but means that you just keep spending for little return, and we just cannot compete with the bigger clubs using that strategy. The current set up will take time, but hopefully in 3/4 years will bear fruit, and enable us to continue attracting better young players, making the Club sustainable for the future. Just be patient.

Some things never change, its been jam tomorrow since i was a nipper

[Phileas Fogg]

8 minutes ago, tts_city said:

Some things never change, its been jam tomorrow since i was a nipper

I don't get why buying for the future is  such a strange concept to some. It's one of the only ways we can compete in a very competitive marketplace with many rich clubs.

[tts_city]

5 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I don't get why buying for the future is  such a strange concept to some. It's one of the only ways we can compete in a very competitive marketplace with many rich clubs.

Were did I write its a strange concept ? there is always a reason why its jam tomorrow, to much deadwood, need extra transfer windows to sort the squad etc..... now we are buying for the future, as i said jam tomorrow and has been for most of my supporting years.

[Nomad]

11 minutes ago, Fiale said:

 

 

This is my worry. We spoke about it not long ago.

These players generally are not even getting on the sub bench, so unlikely they will walk into the first team next season, so maybe will be subs and hope to start the odd game next season ? But at that point in all effect their contracts are up. They have spent a year not playing for the first team, a year on the sub bench. At that point they hit contract renewal territory. If they do not sign that's a lot of transfer fees just gone up in smoke, and a lot of wasted time and effort. 

And if they do sign we still have to pay the going rate according to how they have "developed". I guess the only answer is to try and extend every year if you think they are going to come good. Then when they do break through we still have them for a good 2/3 years.

[bristolcitysweden]

Signings for the future are 15 years old. Not adult men in their early twenties. 

[JoeAman08]

Maybe just maybe we're grooming these young players. Getting their skills and physicality up to required standard before unleashing them. Maybe we want them to be 100% integrated and up to standard before we put them out there and feel the pressure of us who are probably a bit unfairly too expectant. 

Im 100% on board with the signings we've made and when we sell the likes of Flint, Freeman and Pack for profit we've already got replacements ready to go. The squad isn't what it will be. I fully expect the youngsters to start getting more and more minutes as the season carries on and in a lot of ways they've been a bit unlucky as you'd usually have an injury and suspension or two to allow a bit more time on the pitch. 

[bristolcitysweden]

Ship the oldies out. If you are 25 and not established at Championship level you should not be allowed to play above National League level.  

[bristolcitysweden]

Football is digging it's own grave. You might be able to blind the Asians for another ten years byt that's it. Why are young people not interested in football? Because it's a donkey business runned by aging people. My ass can tell you.