Summer Recruitment - Poor yet again

[RED4LIFE]

I find it hard to believe that some fans struggle to understand our transfer policy.

The only way we will ever be able to afford top end championship players is by buying potential, improving it and selling on for higher fees. We can then invest in better players with the funds we've earned off said players. The nature of the beast is some players we buy with an eye to the future wont make the grade, but this happens to virtually every club in the world.

We don't have parachute payments and can't just throw money around due to FFP rules. Basically, we need to make money before we spend money and, unfortunately, a club of our size doesn't have the stature  (yet) to be able to go out and attract the top talent around. We fish in a much smaller pond than some of our opponents.

This is a long-term project and there will be some hiccups along the way, but I believe we will be much better off in the future IF we show some patience. Unfortunately, patience seems to be lacking amongst a group of our fan base.

[ciderbeans]

I take your points Phileas but these players I mentioned are above league one imo and should be given a chance in our first team to develop. After all, that's what they were bought for. As we are continuously losing ATM, why not mix it up a bit anyway and let them prove their worth. Certain players aren't pulling their weight and need dropping.

regarding players like Moore who have great pedigree, he certainly should be playing or we run the risk of losing him like lens did for not playing him enough, and another club will benefit from a player that could well play for England in the future.

[bs3]

15 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

So you gave him one pre-season game when he would have still been working his way to fitness and getting to grips with his new surroundings, and immediately concluded he wasn't good enough. Well done for giving him a fair crack of the whip.

I also didn't come on here saying O'Dowda will be a flop because like you said , you must give players a chance but I recall chatting to my friends after that match I was very disappointed on what I witnessed.

Would you have been happy for fans to come on here and call our signings leauge one fodder of course not but there was fans who did think that. 

You can't have ago at fans for not voicing there concerns when we have brought in new players and then criticises and then if if they do have issues with signings then criticises for not giving that player a fair crack of the whip. 

So what you are saying is that we must remain silent over signings and not have an opinion and when he six months time if we dare to criticises any of them we should of said it six months ago.

[Phileas Fogg]

6 minutes ago, ciderbeans said:

I take your points Phileas but these players I mentioned are above league one imo and should be given a chance in our first team to develop. After all, that's what they were bought for.

Not sure how you can come to that conclusion just yet, we haven't seen enough of any of them. Difficult to judge until all of them have a good run of games - ideally starts. I think all of them would really benefit from a months loan to a decent league 1 side where they get a solid run of starts.

6 minutes ago, ciderbeans said:

As we are continuously losing ATM, why not mix it up a bit anyway and let them prove their worth. Certain players aren't pulling their weight and need dropping.

Agree with the sentiment but again, we don't actually know whether any of them are good enough as they haven't played enough consecutive games.

6 minutes ago, ciderbeans said:

regarding players like Moore who have great pedigree, he certainly should be playing or we run the risk of losing him like lens did for not playing him enough, and another club will benefit from a player that could well play for England in the future.

Agree but he's got plenty of time. He's still learning and developing and comes from a lower standard of football. Flint and Magnusson have done pretty well largely.

[pongo88]

On 27 December 2016 at 00:45, italian dave said:

And yet all the talk on this forum back in August was about the fantastic success that the summer transfer window had been.....I struggle to recall a single negative comment about it.

The reason nearly everyone on the forum thought the summer signings were good is because they are not professional football managers, coaches, scouts. People on the forum are just supporters who tend to believe what they are told by the club. If Mark Ashton or Lee Johnson says this or that player is great value for money, we've got to accept their views unless we have regularly watched them play. Not many would have seen O'Dowda play much, if at all. Probably nobody on the forum would have watched Engvall play. I was one of those who believed what I was told and thought the signings were good, but I'll be more cautious with future signings until I've seen them in action

[bs3]

10 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

http://mobile.bcfc.co.uk/news/article/2016-17/odowda-wings-in-from-oxford-3186218.aspx

Don't see anything there that talks about him being a "key player". The emphasis is on potential; his "emerging talent" and "continued progression", exactly what you would expect them to say about a 21 year old.

Clearly you are going to talk positively about a new signing who you believe has potential - if you didn't think that, you wouldn't sign him in the first place.

Still I suppose none of this fits the current desire to bash LJ and MA at every opportunity, with the benefit of hindsight.

There is nothing current about my desire to bash MA, never liked him from day one, and by the way I had misgivings about the appointment of LJ, so hindsight don't come in to it.

[Phileas Fogg]

3 minutes ago, bs3 said:

There is nothing current about my desire to bash MA, never liked him from day one, and by the way I had misgivings about the appointment of LJ, so hindsight don't come in to it.

Why not? Let me guess.. because he uses a few corporate buzzwords.

[View from the Dolman]

12 minutes ago, bs3 said:

I also didn't come on here saying O'Dowda will be a flop

You were pretty damning though. Your tip of Portsmouth to win L2 at a breeze also looks to have been a little over the top. 

[ChippenhamRed]

12 minutes ago, bs3 said:

I also didn't come on here saying O'Dowda will be a flop because like you said , you must give players a chance but I recall chatting to my friends after that match I was very disappointed on what I witnessed.

Would you have been happy for fans to come on here and call our signings leauge one fodder of course not but there was fans who did think that. 

You can't have ago at fans for not voicing there concerns when we have brought in new players and then criticises and then if if they do have issues with signings then criticises for not giving that player a fair crack of the whip. 

So what you are saying is that we must remain silent over signings and not have an opinion and when he six months time if we dare to criticises any of them we should of said it six months ago.

That's a complete load of cobblers and not what I'm saying at all.

[bs3]

3 minutes ago, View from the Dolman said:

You were pretty damning though. Your tip of Portsmouth to win L2 at a breeze also looks to have been a little over the top. 

I know, good job I didn't put any money on them.

[Pickle Rick]

On 27/12/2016 at 00:45, italian dave said:

And yet all the talk on this forum back in August was about the fantastic success that the summer transfer window had been.....I struggle to recall a single negative comment about it.

Hmmm.

[Ivorguy]

Why have we failed to advance those youngsters who HAVE played for us ?

Will they disappear as so many have in the past ?

Morrell played for us aged 16 and not since. Vyner is stuck up at Accrington when we have clear defensive problems.  De Girolamo is not being given a decent chance to prove himself - but, of course, he is a goal scoring winger, and we don't rate those. What of Kelly who was part of the squad 18 months ago.  I could go on.  Other teams manage to blood their young successfully, but seldom us.  We persist in seeing Bryan and Reid as rising youth, years after that particular ship has sailed

[Spoons]

1 hour ago, bs3 said:

 

It's not about fitness or fitting in to team and its surrounding.

It's  touch and movement, he looked out of his depth and I felt sure he wouldn't be a regular in the team, which I have been correct in my initial view. But that's fine he may come good 2nd half of the season or even next season, my gripe is not with a young footballer doing his best but with MA and LJ who paraded him as a great signing and he will be a key player for us this season, when you could clear see he was miles away from being such a player in the championship.

 

 

Get a life mate, you can't judge a player on 1 pre season friendly against pompey.

This might come back to haunt you in 3/4 years when we sell odowda for £3/4 million plus or he helps us to the prem!!

[Phileas Fogg]

14 minutes ago, Ivorguy said:

Why have we failed to advance those youngsters who HAVE played for us ?

Maybe they just aren't good enough for this level.

14 minutes ago, Ivorguy said:

Morrell played for us aged 16 and not since.

We aren't exactly short on central midfield players, think he's well down the pecking order.

14 minutes ago, Ivorguy said:

Vyner is stuck up at Accrington when we have clear defensive problems.

Vyner has had a few illness issues which have knocked him back a bit. Think he's better off up there playing regular football anyway than warming our bench.

14 minutes ago, Ivorguy said:

 De Girolamo is not being given a decent chance to prove himself - but, of course, he is a goal scoring winger, and we don't rate those.

Don't think he's that far away actually. Wouldn't be surprised to see him get a go in the FA Cup and then if we have any injuries or suspensions find himself in the league match squad.

[View from the Dolman]

15 minutes ago, Ivorguy said:

Vyner is stuck up at Accrington when we have clear defensive problems. 

We can't recall him until the transfer window opens.

Would you have kept him at the club playing more U23 games over him getting men's football experience in the FL? Or would you have sent on loan to a lower league so that we could recall him?

[Jack Dawe]

1 hour ago, RED4LIFE said:

I find it hard to believe that some fans struggle to understand our transfer policy.

The only way we will ever be able to afford top end championship players is by buying potential, improving it and selling on for higher fees. We can then invest in better players with the funds we've earned off said players. The nature of the beast is some players we buy with an eye to the future wont make the grade, but this happens to virtually every club in the world.

We don't have parachute payments and can't just throw money around due to FFP rules. Basically, we need to make money before we spend money and, unfortunately, a club of our size doesn't have the stature  (yet) to be able to go out and attract the top talent around. We fish in a much smaller pond than some of our opponents.

This is a long-term project and there will be some hiccups along the way, but I believe we will be much better off in the future IF we show some patience. Unfortunately, patience seems to be lacking amongst a group of our fan base.

This is something a Chief Operating Officer could come out and publicly reiterate then, I imagine, to be crystal clear and keep the "supporter base" informed.

I like your post but it's not entirely true. Tomlin is, or certainly was, a "top end" Championship player. Indeed, even a "bottom end" Prem one. And not a young one. And we managed to afford him. So, we can afford one, at least. Can we afford two? I have no idea. Many people, frustrated by seven defeats in eight remember, probably want us to buy a couple more like him. It's not as though we haven't disregarded this new transfer policy before, and that must come into people's thinking.

This is a test of the club's resolve and committment to their own ideals. Meantime, some people will struggle to "stay on message"

[RedRock]

I just find it incredible that these, so called , 'one's for the future', seem to get bugger all game time at any level. It's almost like they don't exist.

All totally bizarre. About time someone from the Club explained what the hell is going on. 

How on earth a club in our position can spend £2 million plus on a 'one for the future' is beyond me. 

Nightmare.

 

[shelts]

On 27/12/2016 at 00:38, tinman85 said:

All this positive talk from Ashton, Johnson  and the board around getting Recruitment right. Sorry but they've cobbled together a squad of League 1 fodder with one of the highest spend in the Championship this season. To summarise, Abraham, O'Neil and Mags, great business. Tomlin was a Pemberton/Ashton loan which turned out well. The rest? Sorry but I am really struggling to understand what we have 'splashed the cash' for? 

Cotterill was right. Players in League 1 and below generally cannot hack it at this level. 

We need established signings if we are going to challenge at this level. 

 

 

 

 

 

Gonna cost is that. Not sure Tomlins done enough to justify his fee . 

[tinman85]

Tony Fawthrop/Lee Johnson. Massive similarities. If only Scott Davidson was still around.....

[RED4LIFE]

1 hour ago, Jack Dawe said:

This is something a Chief Operating Officer could come out and publicly reiterate then, I imagine, to be crystal clear and keep the "supporter base" informed.

I like your post but it's not entirely true. Tomlin is, or certainly was, a "top end" Championship player. Indeed, even a "bottom end" Prem one. And not a young one. And we managed to afford him. So, we can afford one, at least. Can we afford two? I have no idea. Many people, frustrated by seven defeats in eight remember, probably want us to buy a couple more like him. It's not as though we haven't disregarded this new transfer policy before, and that must come into people's thinking.

This is a test of the club's resolve and committment to their own ideals. Meantime, some people will struggle to "stay on message"

I agree that Tomlin is 'top-end' but he's just one man. GoN is another but he was on a free and is edging towards the end of his career.

The point I was trying to make was we can't afford a full team of those type of players yet but (and it's a big but) if we can improve the younger players who have potential and make some decent profits when we sell them, we can sign more of the 'top end' players.

Why we aren't actually playing the likes of O'Dowda, Taylor and Engvall yet I dont know. Maybe they aren't ready for this standard of football yet or maybe just aren't good enough? Only time will tell.

As for MA saying something, admittedly, It would be good to hear from him but I personally think he would be on a hiding to nothing considering there are some fans baying for blood at the moment. Hopefully, his actions this transfer window will speak louder than anything he could say in an interview.

[pillred]

4 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said:

What's so stupid about saying that a player will reach their potential in the future? 

have you ever heard the saying tomorrow never comes, well sometimes I feel like that about city, its always somewhere over the rainbow

[Major Isewater]

3 hours ago, bs3 said:

I for one did say our signings were average. I may have said it our this forum but I certainly said it elsewhere.

Good for you , have a house point .

[Major Isewater]

35 minutes ago, RED4LIFE said:

I agree that Tomlin is 'top-end' but he's just one man. GoN is another but he was on a free and is edging towards the end of his career.

The point I was trying to make was we can't afford a full team of those type of players yet but (and it's a big but) if we can improve the younger players who have potential and make some decent profits when we sell them, we can sign more of the 'top end' players.

Why we aren't actually playing the likes of O'Dowda, Taylor and Engvall yet I dont know. Maybe they aren't ready for this standard of football yet or maybe just aren't good enough? Only time will tell.

As for MA saying something, admittedly, It would be good to hear from him but I personally think he would be on a hiding to nothing considering there are some fans baying for blood at the moment. Hopefully, his actions this transfer window will speak louder than anything he could say in an interview.

It is much harder for a club like ours to attract experienced players at this level than youngsters on the up . We know that there were negotiations with these types of players that evidently did n't come to fruition .Campbell at Palace got a serious injury just before the end of the transfer window.

 

Hopefully now the panic to bring in numbers is over the recruitment team have had the chance to concentrate on the  quality that we need to advance as a club.

[JoeAman08]

3 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I think the players we are bringing in as 'ones for the future' are with a view to being top end Championship players and maybe even Prem players at some point. With the likes of O'Dowda and Moore being youth internationals and Lucic's Bayern Munich pedigree I don't think that's an unrealistic expectation.

I agree there are players we could find who could perform fine in this league that are cheaper, but I think there's a real difference between top potential players and those that will grow into average players at this level. I believe over the next few years, especially with the stadium improvements and improvements across the board, we aim to be either in the Prem or challenging at the top of this league. I don't believe Cunningham or Ayling (wasn't sure who BR was!) are quite good enough for the top of this league and you have to pay extra for that additional quality. If just one of our 'ones for the future' becomes that good, and we either benefit from it directly or sell them on for a huge profit, it'll be worth it.

You're spot on. We could've signed the likes of Pringle who's now at Preston. Good signing and good player for the league. He would slot in and start right now for us. Problem is, he is who he is. He's not a player that'll help us get top 6 at any point. There are many examples like this. 

Also, we won't be spending huge fees and wages on everyone we sign. Be appreciative of them going out and signing GON and Tomlin on presumably large wages. We will when we can but for the most part we are looking for a Mahrez or Vardy. Someone we can get for under 2m and turn them into 10+m. That's the only way we'll ever be able to compete consistently at this level and above if we get there. 

Moore, Engvall, Lucic, Brownhill and O'Dowda were always signed with next year and beyond in mind. They are our squad fillers because we can't bring in loans. Better to own your squad fillers and develop them to the style you play so they're ready when needed. They'll be played when ready. You can see what they'll eventually bring in their brief appearances. Brownhill has an eye for the forward pass, is box to box and doesn't mind a tackle. Engvall has a nice touch and a motor. He'll harrass defenders and run after everything tiring out defenders(could say he softened up Hull for Tomlin and Tammy when we made our push). Taylor Moore is. Comfortable footballer who can defend and has a tremendous burst of speed. Lucic looks a good shot stopper but a keeper that can take a defender pressing him and find a good pass to start a break. O Dowda is a top athlete with pace and power. A winger that can get in the box and win a header but also tricky enough to beat defenders and draw loads of fouls. If they came from our academy we'd all be gushing with praise but because they cost large fees, not for the league but for us historically, we want to pressure them and say they aren't good enough already. 

So why would LJ throw them in now if he knows they aren't quite ready and that the crowd will be on them after 15 minutes if we haven't scored 3 times? They're still being trained. Learning different tricks of the trade. It's not their time yet. We are protecting our investments. Buy into the project instead of slagging it off. The league is tough, ask Norwich who've lost something like 7 from 9 and much better equipped than us. Or Wolves who are now ahead of us for the first time in months and spent a similar amount while having much more experience already on the squad. Don't look at the transfer fees. Half what we spent was on players we want to develop. You can argue we only spent on 3 players for our first XI with Tomlin, GON and Hordor(who's still got much to learn). Ok maybe we needed one or two more for the first XI, fair enough but don't slag off the youth. Give LJ and MA more than one window. January won't have all the answers either. They've been quite upfront about the time they need. Give them the time. Judge them this time next year if you must I just can't see how now is the time. 

[RedRock]

4 hours ago, JoeAman08 said:

You're spot on. We could've signed the likes of Pringle who's now at Preston. Good signing and good player for the league. He would slot in and start right now for us. Problem is, he is who he is. He's not a player that'll help us get top 6 at any point. There are many examples like this. 

Also, we won't be spending huge fees and wages on everyone we sign. Be appreciative of them going out and signing GON and Tomlin on presumably large wages. We will when we can but for the most part we are looking for a Mahrez or Vardy. Someone we can get for under 2m and turn them into 10+m. That's the only way we'll ever be able to compete consistently at this level and above if we get there. 

Moore, Engvall, Lucic, Brownhill and O'Dowda were always signed with next year and beyond in mind. They are our squad fillers because we can't bring in loans. Better to own your squad fillers and develop them to the style you play so they're ready when needed. They'll be played when ready. You can see what they'll eventually bring in their brief appearances. Brownhill has an eye for the forward pass, is box to box and doesn't mind a tackle. Engvall has a nice touch and a motor. He'll harrass defenders and run after everything tiring out defenders(could say he softened up Hull for Tomlin and Tammy when we made our push). Taylor Moore is. Comfortable footballer who can defend and has a tremendous burst of speed. Lucic looks a good shot stopper but a keeper that can take a defender pressing him and find a good pass to start a break. O Dowda is a top athlete with pace and power. A winger that can get in the box and win a header but also tricky enough to beat defenders and draw loads of fouls. If they came from our academy we'd all be gushing with praise but because they cost large fees, not for the league but for us historically, we want to pressure them and say they aren't good enough already. 

So why would LJ throw them in now if he knows they aren't quite ready and that the crowd will be on them after 15 minutes if we haven't scored 3 times? They're still being trained. Learning different tricks of the trade. It's not their time yet. We are protecting our investments. Buy into the project instead of slagging it off. The league is tough, ask Norwich who've lost something like 7 from 9 and much better equipped than us. Or Wolves who are now ahead of us for the first time in months and spent a similar amount while having much more experience already on the squad. Don't look at the transfer fees. Half what we spent was on players we want to develop. You can argue we only spent on 3 players for our first XI with Tomlin, GON and Hordor(who's still got much to learn). Ok maybe we needed one or two more for the first XI, fair enough but don't slag off the youth. Give LJ and MA more than one window. January won't have all the answers either. They've been quite upfront about the time they need. Give them the time. Judge them this time next year if you must I just can't see how now is the time. 

Decent response, but tell me why don't we play these 'one's for the future' consistently in the Under 23's? 

I really don't get the chuck the 'academy kids in versus men' idea while we've got a load of expensive young talent bench warming, at best. It's a strategy that has failed us for 20 + years and is likely to do so for the next 20.

Far better putting out strong teams that can compete with the opposition, develop a winning mentality, get a pattern of play established and start gelling a few players working together as a team. 

We've a Club at the moment that is packed full of players that play as individuals, are 'losers' not 'winners', and a team with no defined pattern of play. 

[steviestevieneville]

On 27/12/2016 at 00:38, tinman85 said:

All this positive talk from Ashton, Johnson  and the board around getting Recruitment right. Sorry but they've cobbled together a squad of League 1 fodder with one of the highest spend in the Championship this season. To summarise, Abraham, O'Neil and Mags, great business. Tomlin was a Pemberton/Ashton loan which turned out well. The rest? Sorry but I am really struggling to understand what we have 'splashed the cash' for? 

Cotterill was right. Players in League 1 and below generally cannot hack it at this level. 

We need established signings if we are going to challenge at this level. 

 

 

 

 

 

The others were bought with one eye on the future , it was said **** knows how many times over the summer but because we're on a bad run all the negative doom and gloom merchants pipe up. It's all the usual suspects who've liked your post. 

[JoeAman08]

1 hour ago, Moor2Sea said:

Decent response, but tell me why don't we play these 'one's for the future' consistently in the Under 23's? 

I really don't get the chuck the 'academy kids in versus men' idea while we've got a load of expensive young talent bench warming, at best. It's a strategy that has failed us for 20 + years and is likely to do so for the next 20.

Far better putting out strong teams that can compete with the opposition, develop a winning mentality, get a pattern of play established and start gelling a few players working together as a team. 

We've a Club at the moment that is packed full of players that play as individuals, are 'losers' not 'winners', and a team with no defined pattern of play. 

Isn't that what we're doing though. Putting out our strongest XI and the youth aren't getting a look in. Some of them get some U23 games but most of them need to be on the bench to fill it. It's good for them to be in the first team squad and they've been used off the bench quite a bit. They're being nurtured. I think it would be quite tough on them to throw them amidst this awful run. That's not what you're calling for though. You're calling for our best and most experienced team and that's what we've been given. So I don't get what you're asking for. More first team signings? Like ive said in various posts we can't afford to pay 5m and 30k a week for players. What we can do is buy a 20 year old full international for 1-1.5m and help develop him into a 5m player on 15k a week after contract negotiations. 

Did you think the club would be in a position to spend on players that may not be able to help right away? Maybe it shows how far the club have come and how much they're trying to get it on the right path. I don't see what the past 20 years has to do with 2016-17. The next 20 years could see us in the premier league for the majority of that. It's the plan anyway. I'm willing to see it play out is all I'm saying. The youth we bought have good pedigree and if not playing them means preparing them for next season then I'm all for it. Just can't see how they're being written off before they actually get their chance which they will. By all means, if they're still sitting this time next year there should be questions asked. As it is, we are still finishing out the squad, training them to how we want to play and figuring out everyone best positions. Just saying give it the time it deserves. We're already 10m in signings showing the clubs intent. Give them the chance to sort it all out. I firmly believe this time next year we'll be right in the playoff mix. We aren't far off at the moment.