Lee Tomlin

[RedM]

3 minutes ago, Robert the bruce said:

I may be mistaken,but doesn't Tomlin live two hours drive(or thereabouts) from Bristol??-to do that twice a day(before/after training) fairly regularly will not help physically or mentally long term-not looking for excuses but that would become a drag..

I believe he has a place in Bristol, so it's not everyday like O'Neil for example who does a regular long drive.

I can understand not wanting to move family down here if you have school age children, yet at the same time if you have made a commitment to a workplace you can't expect to be back home at every opportunity. Also it can't help with team bonding etc if players are socialising together and you just want to dash back up the motorway instead.

[BobBobSuperBob]

5 minutes ago, RedM said:

I believe he has a place in Bristol, so it's not everyday like O'Neil for example who does a regular long drive.

I can understand not wanting to move family down here if you have school age children, yet at the same time if you have made a commitment to a workplace you can't expect to be back home at every opportunity. Also it can't help with team bonding etc if players are socialising together and you just want to dash back up the motorway instead.

LJ said recently that he was commuting daily RedM

Possible family issues ? Or just fed up ?

Think somebody previously hinted that it may be the former

[WTFiGO!?!]

I voted him the most talented footballer I've seen at AG over the last 10 years. 

There appears to be an attitude and/or application problem.

Not many clubs can accommodate such a player, least of all a weaker one in a division.  

Matt Le Tissier was a rare example of a successful maverick at a smaller club.  Cantona was so good, Fergie turned a blind eye.  JET was not accommodated at all and was moved on/down.

I reserve the right to assume, although I fail to believe his not playing is down to formation and tactics alone.  

 

[SecretSam]

I seem to recall that we've been here before...JET, Noble...super-talented players for whom it just didn't work out

[Monkeh]

Just now, SecretSam said:

I seem to recall that we've been here before...JET, Noble...super-talented players for whom it just didn't work out

but all never played at this level again after us (jet made the bench a few times then failed at gillingham)

There is room for these type of players but you need the other 9 outfield players to be on their game, we don't have that and get punished for it,

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

On 30/04/2017 at 11:06, BigTone said:

And god forbib a manager that keeps playing people out of position. That goes for the whole team

Sorry, but that is nonsense.  Who has been consistently played out of position?  Who determines what someone's position is in the first place?  The player?  The fans?  Football is a squad/team game and players have to be adaptable, particularly in midfield and wide positions.

[RedRock]

21 minutes ago, SecretSam said:

I seem to recall that we've been here before...JET, Noble...super-talented players for whom it just didn't work out

There does seem a recurring issue here - add Jackie and Trundle.

That said only Trundle came here without any 'health warning'. The others had already proved they were flawed genius. Maybe a lesson learnt. However, much we love to watch these guys and want them to play for us, if far better managers than we've ever appointed can't integrate/effectively man-manage them, then maybe steer well clear. 

Pity. Tomlin is a world beater and an absolute joy to watch on occasions. Never forget the Fulham and Huddersfield goals from last season- just epic. This season though, trying to integrate him in our side nearly relegated us. 

 

 

[bpexile]

1 hour ago, 29AR said:

Tomlin's problem is he believes his own hype. We possibly fuelled it in the way as a club and as a fan base we seemed to go begging. 

He came here on loan and had a point to prove. He thought he proved it and tjidnleft him infallable, and that was wrong. 

I dare say his next club may, for the time being, see the LT we did on loan as he again has insecurities 

Frankly I think we need to cut our losses on this one. Just get him out. Attitude is wrong and could spread like .. 

For all his talents, I think the only clubs to touch him now would be.thse ehi habitually battle to stay in this league. 

JET could have been so much but never was because he didn't want it. LT could have been so much but hasnt because he's a dick is the impression I get. 

Agreed, sad but "One Bad Apple............"

[SecretSam]

7 minutes ago, Moor2Sea said:

There does seem a recurring issue here - add Jackie and Trundle.

That said only Trundle came here without any 'health warning'. The others had already proved they were flawed genius. Maybe a lesson learnt. However, much we love to watch these guys and want them to play for us, if far better managers than we've ever appointed can't integrate/effectively man-manage them, then maybe steer well clear. 

Pity. Tomlin is a world beater and an absolute joy to watch on occasions. Never forget the Fulham and Huddersfield goals from last season- just epic. This season though, trying to integrate him in our side nearly relegated us. 

 

 

Don't get me started on Trundle, one of our worst ever investments.  

Your last point, however, absolutely nails it: adapting the side to fit one individual isn't appropriate at our level. 

[steviestevieneville]

24 minutes ago, SecretSam said:

Don't get me started on Trundle, one of our worst ever investments.  

Your last point, however, absolutely nails it: adapting the side to fit one individual isn't appropriate at our level. 

Trundle still had plenty of ability , it was GJ not playing him in his best position as he did with a few others Evander Snow for instance

[SecretSam]

40 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

Trundle still had plenty of ability , it was GJ not playing him in his best position as he did with a few others Evander Snow for instance

Fair point, but he was an excellent example of a player who didn't fit with the team ethos.  However, Trundle's love of making the simple things complicated didn't help.

[Shtanley]

Taylor has been playing the role Tomlin would normally be playing and has been excellent. A ridiculous assist ratio for someone who I thought was only here to score goals. I love Tomlin but in this formation without him changing his work rate and pressing I can't see it working out. Sell him if possible so that if we find another big name player we can replace him with them. 

[SecretSam]

11 minutes ago, Shtanley said:

Taylor has been playing the role Tomlin would normally be playing and has been excellent. A ridiculous assist ratio for someone who I thought was only here to score goals. I love Tomlin but in this formation without him changing his work rate and pressing I can't see it working out. Sell him if possible and get a decent right back. 

FTFY

[chinapig]

12 hours ago, steviestevieneville said:

Trundle still had plenty of ability , it was GJ not playing him in his best position as he did with a few others Evander Snow for instance

The question I asked myself at the time was, given his record at Swansea and his undoubted talent, why did nobody else take a gamble on him? He ended up after all joining a club that had just been promoted from League 1. He was never really suited to the physical side of playing as an out and out striker in the Championship I felt.

Despite his agent regularly linking him with Everton we were apparently the biggest club to go after him. That seems to say something about how he was judged by other clubs.

Funnily enough, the best all round game I saw him play was at Palace when he kept dropping deep or pulling out wide, playing some deft passes, all of which left their defenders confused. With Dele often powering at their right back and McIndoe drifting into the middle it all seemed to baffle Warnock, always a bonus.

It was almost passed over in the euphoria of the result what a fine team performance it was and Trundle's contribution in particular. Though we all remember the goal in the second leg of course.

 

 

[SecretSam]

10 hours ago, chinapig said:

The question I asked myself at the time was, given his record at Swansea and his undoubted talent, why did nobody else take a gamble on him? He ended up after all joining a club that had just been promoted from League 1.

Slow, slowed the game down, over-complicated things, didn't really add anything, didn't work for the team, wrong player, wrong team, wrong time...need I go on?

[MarkRed!]

Personally think the formation issues are a red herring.... Tomlin played as part of a 2 and 3 last season and also played on the wide left and in the middle. Good players can play in any formation. Tomlin was majestic last season which is why we signed him. It was the right call but this season it has not worked for him. BUT the whole team have struggled tbf. 

The problem for me is that he has not appeared to be fit all season. I dont know if he has been carrying a niggling injury but he has not been the same player. The odd touch of magic here and there but way below par. BUT surely it is the job of the manager to get the best out of the players. I think there are some double standards on here as well as other players have also had a very poor season when considering the whole season -

1. Flint had a mare mid-season and was awful. Now he is worth 10 million ffs.

2. Patterson went AWOL and was described as lightweight after a promising start. Now he is being lauded as a 25 million player!

3. Korey Smith was a liability in midfield and perhaps was rushed back when not fit. 

4. Pack similarly went AWOL along with Brownhill. 

5. Fielding has been replaced by 3 other GK's......

6. We have had more right backs than I can remember.....

7. Matthews .....nough said.

8. We have had puzzling selections - Matthews at CB when the Eng U19 captain is on the bench. Magnusson dropped... Hegeler looking a million dollars and then cant get in the team......

The only player who is really immune from any criticism is Tammy, although my own view is that too much stock was put on him at the expense for our forward play. Despite his goals he has only assisted in 3. He has improved his hold up play as the season has progressed but has definitely benefited from having Taylor with him. Taylor has already made 5 assists and has allowed other players to score - Brownhill being the most recent example. 

We could go on and on.... the fact is that the squad has been mismanaged by the manager and the tactics and set up have been inconsistent all year. This has hindered the fluidity of our play IMO and had a major impact on Tomlin's effectiveness.  To his credit LJ found a formula when it mattered the most. That has saved us from, what I believed, was certain relegation. In this respect, I hope he has learned from this as at any other club he would have been sacked. Mcinness also pulled off a miracle staving off relegation if I recall... he was sacked the following season..... Lessons must be learned and not glossed over. SL and the club's decision to back LJ will only pay off if we are sitting in mid-table next season and are clear of relegation. Saving our status with 1 game to go is not acceptable given the resources we have had. 

Lets not mince any words, this season has been horrible and I for one will be glad when it is over and am pleased that we are still in the Championship. We should never have been in the position anyway. The diabolical mid-season cannot and should not be forgotten or tolerated.....having been to most if not all of those games the quality of football was atrocious and City really are Jekyll and Hyde when you look at them now.... 

I think there is a place for Tomlin but a lot depends on how he is to be used by LJ and his fitness. 

[MarkRed!]

28 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

But now we're winning and every player looks superb without tomlin in the side. I don't think he fits in to this system that requires work rate from every player. 

I dont think fans should take such a short term view of things. We have been shite for most of the season - relegation form. We have been saved because we started the season well, we have ended it well and there are at least 3 other abject sides in this division who have been worse than us. The latter is the real reason we have survived. We survived by the skin of our teeth. We must learn lessons from the season as there have been times when Tomlin was not in the team and we were still abject.... thus you cannot blame him. 

Results in the past 5 games have been excellent and the team is Jekyll and Hyde for me. How can 11 players perform so admirably and turn it on? The reality is that they have been set up better, formation is consistent and the pattern of play is better - wait a minute that comes from the manager! At the end of the day, LJ should be credited for turning it around but this upturn must not gloss over what has been a dreadful period for the club and where he has been shown to be tactically inept for most of it.

There remain major problems and the summer recruitment will be key. As I said before, McInnes worked wonders and then got relegated and sacked the next season.... we do not want that at all.....

Tomlin is a class player and the job of the manager is to find a place for him. I would have Tomlin in my 11 and again this workrate thing is nonesense....it is the way teams are set up that is the key. Not all players "track back" but this is compensated by the players that are around them. Let's see how things pan out. COYR!  

[eardun]

Re the comment re Tomlin's fitness, I have always felt that he needs a consistent run of games to get up to full speed and sharpness. I don't think we will ever see the best of him if he is in and out of the team. 

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

Just now, eardun said:

Re the comment re Tomlin's fitness, I have always felt that he needs a consistent run of games to get up to full speed and sharpness. I don't think we will ever see the best of him if he is in and out of the team. 

Probably doesn't help, but he's one of those players who due to their body shape is never going to be quite up to the demands of the modern game in terms of fitness.  Mind you one of the greatest footballers of all time, Ferenc Puskas, was exactly the same (though I'm too young to have seen him play!).

[MarkRed!]

3 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

I feel the problem has been when we have played tammy up top on his own. He has needed a partner all season, someone else for centre backs to have to worry about. And we have not had the right one until we bought Taylor. Tomlin certainly does not work with tammy as he drops too deep. So there isn't really a place for Tomlin as he does not track back well enough on the left of a 442.

Not disagreeing with you  but we could quite easily have played 4312 or 4222 or 4213. Tomlin was quality last year so I am not sure what really has changed.  Ultimately, I think it comes down to what 11 players provide the best combinations.

We played 442 against Fulham and Rotherham and were awful in both games. Thus, as I said, i dont think you can simply say that the formation has been material. Consistency of selection, tactics have helped to create a style of play that has been missing for most of the season. Players have disappeared and and then re-appeared without any clear reason.  Personally,  I think LJ got it wrong for most of the season and he has figured this out when the heat was on.

Ultimately, Tomlin has to take some responsibility as a professional and demand his inclusion by good performances. TBF he has not done that - although he was class against Huddersfield at home....

There is no easy answer but for me the buck stops with the manager and how he has set the team up. 

[downendcity]

1 hour ago, MarkRed! said:

I dont think fans should take such a short term view of things. We have been shite for most of the season - relegation form. We have been saved because we started the season well, we have ended it well and there are at least 3 other abject sides in this division who have been worse than us. The latter is the real reason we have survived. We survived by the skin of our teeth. We must learn lessons from the season as there have been times when Tomlin was not in the team and we were still abject.... thus you cannot blame him. 

Results in the past 5 games have been excellent and the team is Jekyll and Hyde for me. How can 11 players perform so admirably and turn it on? The reality is that they have been set up better, formation is consistent and the pattern of play is better - wait a minute that comes from the manager! At the end of the day, LJ should be credited for turning it around but this upturn must not gloss over what has been a dreadful period for the club and where he has been shown to be tactically inept for most of it.

There remain major problems and the summer recruitment will be key. As I said before, McInnes worked wonders and then got relegated and sacked the next season.... we do not want that at all.....

Tomlin is a class player and the job of the manager is to find a place for him. I would have Tomlin in my 11 and again this workrate thing is nonesense....it is the way teams are set up that is the key. Not all players "track back" but this is compensated by the players that are around them. Let's see how things pan out. COYR!  

First 15 games we were fine - close to promotion form.

Next 19 games we dropped off a cliff and during that time showed relegation from.

The last 11 games we have again been fine and showing promotion form once again.

For the majority of the season we have , in fact, shown promotion form, or pretty damn close to promotion form.

Taking into consideration the last third of last season, when we again showed promotion form under LJ, then during his time on charge for by far the majority of games our form was where we would want it to be.

There is no escaping that dire period before and immediately after Christmas, during which I never believed we could survive other than by getting rid of LJ. Normally when a manager goes on that sort of losing run, players stop playing for him and you'd expect to see a few really heavy defeats along the way. Even during the poor run we were not heavily defeated and were competing in the majority of games and although it might not be popular among his detractors, but you have to say that he has turned things around over the last few months.

Of course, his critics will argue that every success achieved has been despite LJ, rather than because of him - playing teams with nothing to play for, players only doing it to protect our championship status, lucky to have Tammy etc. etc. Perhaps LJ realised he needed to change his approach ( he changed to 4-4-2 and started to play a settled team) and perhaps the players responded to the change of approach ( even attitude ) from the head coach.

Many of his critics argue that LJ only stumbled on his best team and formation by luck. We won a world cup in a similar way as in 1966 we went into the World Cup with Jimmy Greaves was the country's premier striker and he started all the group games, but without scoring. Injury prevented him playing against Argentina and Hurst took his place, played in all the remaining games and the rest, as they say, is history. Although Greaves regained fitness, Ramsey stuck with Hurst and thereby made the most of the "luck" that came his way. LJ might have stumbled on the right formation and selection but he has stuck with it and resisted early season tinkering, so has perhaps learned that lesson.

It's also noticeable that our recent upturn in form and results has coincided with the improvement from players like Patterson and Brownhill, who earlier this season were being described as ones for the future, rather than key players now. We also thought that O'Neil was the old experienced head that a young squad needed. Perhaps those experienced old heads are players like Pack ( almost written off by many earlier in the season) and Flint - both "veterans" of the league 1 team - both of whom appear to be flourishing under the pressure and responsibility of the last few weeks.

I think that LJ has shown enough to justify the faith SL showed in him when it would have been easier to sack him. However, he cannot afford any hiccups next season and if he can cut out the alarming drop in form this season, and if we can bring in some good recruits over the summer then perhaps things might look brighter for next season than many imagine.

 

 

[Ivorguy]

Tomlin's form is part of a wider problem; namely, what were the reasons everything went so wrong mid season?  Hopefully the club will undertake a full and independent review of the season just gone, and then take appropriate action for next.

Was it an incompetent manager, was it player revolt, was it a question of poor fitness, was it a clash between coaches ?  We simply have no idea.

Sadly the way this club is so amateurly run I doubt whether such a review as. I suggest will take place, and it will therefore leave us open to the same problems next season.

 

 

[MarkRed!]

8 minutes ago, downendcity said:

First 15 games we were fine - close to promotion form.

Next 19 games we dropped off a cliff and during that time showed relegation from.

The last 11 games we have again been fine and showing promotion form once again.

For the majority of the season we have , in fact, shown promotion form, or pretty damn close to promotion form.

Taking into consideration the last third of last season, when we again showed promotion form under LJ, then during his time on charge for by far the majority of games our form was where we would want it to be.

There is no escaping that dire period before and immediately after Christmas, during which I never believed we could survive other than by getting rid of LJ. Normally when a manager goes on that sort of losing run, players stop playing for him and you'd expect to see a few really heavy defeats along the way. Even during the poor run we were not heavily defeated and were competing in the majority of games and although it might not be popular among his detractors, but you have to say that he has turned things around over the last few months.

Of course, his critics will argue that every success achieved has been despite LJ, rather than because of him - playing teams with nothing to play for, players only doing it to protect our championship status, lucky to have Tammy etc. etc. Perhaps LJ realised he needed to change his approach ( he changed to 4-4-2 and started to play a settled team) and perhaps the players responded to the change of approach ( even attitude ) from the head coach.

Many of his critics argue that LJ only stumbled on his best team and formation by luck. We won a world cup in a similar way as in 1966 we went into the World Cup with Jimmy Greaves was the country's premier striker and he started all the group games, but without scoring. Injury prevented him playing against Argentina and Hurst took his place, played in all the remaining games and the rest, as they say, is history. Although Greaves regained fitness, Ramsey stuck with Hurst and thereby made the most of the "luck" that came his way. LJ might have stumbled on the right formation and selection but he has stuck with it and resisted early season tinkering, so has perhaps learned that lesson.

It's also noticeable that our recent upturn in form and results has coincided with the improvement from players like Patterson and Brownhill, who earlier this season were being described as ones for the future, rather than key players now. We also thought that O'Neil was the old experienced head that a young squad needed. Perhaps those experienced old heads are players like Pack ( almost written off by many earlier in the season) and Flint - both "veterans" of the league 1 team - both of whom appear to be flourishing under the pressure and responsibility of the last few weeks.

I think that LJ has shown enough to justify the faith SL showed in him when it would have been easier to sack him. However, he cannot afford any hiccups next season and if he can cut out the alarming drop in form this season, and if we can bring in some good recruits over the summer then perhaps things might look brighter for next season than many imagine.

 

 

Not necessarily disagreeing with you but I think (not including the cup games) we were fine for the first 11 games without playing with any fluidity. The record was thus P11 W6 D2 L3 Pts 20

From Cardiff onwards we were abject and that spans 25 games (until Wigan away). In that period the record is P 25 W3 D6 L16 Pts 15 

From Wigan away we have P9 W6 D1 L2 Pts 19

That middle part of the season killed us and thus it raises questions about why there was such a diabolical slide given that we were showing promotion form or at least top 10 form. 

TBH I dont care if LJ has been lucky - i'd rather be lucky than relegated! Hopefully, we can learn from this season. It shows that there is potential here. The question will be whether LJ can realise it. He certainly has been given a huge opportunity to do so. I wish him well and hope he proves me wrong for all the criticism I personally have levied at him. 

[downendcity]

35 minutes ago, Ivorguy said:

Tomlin's form is part of a wider problem; namely, what were the reasons everything went so wrong mid season?  Hopefully the club will undertake a full and independent review of the season just gone, and then take appropriate action for next.

Was it an incompetent manager, was it player revolt, was it a question of poor fitness, was it a clash between coaches ?  We simply have no idea.

Sadly the way this club is so amateurly run I doubt whether such a review as. I suggest will take place, and it will therefore leave us open to the same problems next season.

 

 

An "amateurly run club" would have waited until the end of the season until carrying out a review of what caused everything to go so wrong from the beginning  of November and might have been doing so while looking forward to league 1 football.

A professionally run club would have been addressing the problems at the time and looking to identify the the cause(s) and addressing them asap to give the best chance of avoiding relegation.  Perhaps the recent upturn in form and results is proof that those problems have already been addressed and that lessons have been learned, or do things only ever improve at BCFC  despite LJ and SL, not because of?