Pembo

[Ashtonwurzel]

3 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

There are many people whom I respect but don't necessarily like , so the two things are not mutually exclusive.

I would follow a soldier into a war zone if I respected him not because I liked him . 

I wouldn't do the same for a soldier I liked but didn't respect .

People are different, I would not follow any one who had not earn't my respect and I only respect people I like.

 

 

 

[Cowshed]

10 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Don't want to get into the full JP debate but 

Can anyone point me in the right direction of WHEN , JP was suddenly declared the 'defensive coach'  ?

Am I right in thinking up to , and even  through the majority of LJs  tenure he was never described as such but was always 'First Team coach' or 'Assistant' ?

The title slightly bemuses me tbh as most coaching , particularly pattern of play , shape involves the whole side

My knowledge and experience football is that Clubs tend to have a goalkeeping coach and some of the Prem Clubs have specific set piece coaches but in all my years I can't remember hearing of a club having a 'defensive coach' ( Can anyone  correct me and point out who ?)

Clubs sometimes use coaches to work on particular skills , normally forwards but to ' section up responsibility' in coaches at a Club like ours I've not heard of

Generally coaches will run different sessions to work on different aspects 

So did we have a 'defensive coach' but no 'attacking coach' ?

Some have suggested that Holden was the 'attacking coach' but I've only seen this suggested on here, somebody may correct me but I've not heard LJ / The Club refer to this

And presumably if JP was our defensive coach , can anyone point me when it's been explained who is now the 'defensive coach' and who has which responsibilities 

Unfortunately for JP the late season run may be coincidental but an obvious conclusion could be that the change had an / the effect

Personally , I don't think the change was anything to do with coaching skills but much more to do with dynamics / personalities 

 

Being brutal , if it was a factor in  keeping us up , it was necessary and justified but the whole 'defensive coach' thing I find a red herring

Its a valid point, but there are coaches who specialise in defending. Don Howe springs instantly to mind, Steve Bould another and Sean Dyche has a defensive coach at Burnley.

[BobBobSuperBob]

15 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Its a valid point, but there are coaches who specialise in defending. Don Howe springs instantly to mind, Steve Bould another and Sean Dyche has a defensive coach at Burnley.

Of course coaches have particular skill sets to add but I've never heard anybody actually titled 'defensive coach'  - that was my point

 

Edit

Was intrigued by this and indeed you are correct - a few premclubs do have defensive coaches , or have had  seemingly and understandably set pieces being a common theme

I did hear Pardew say he had a specific set piece coach and a specific analyst for set pieces !

[Ashtonwurzel]

3 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Of course coaches have particular skill sets to add but I've never heard anybody actually titled 'defensive coach'  - that was my point

It is actually very common not always advertised as such but certain coaches have responsibilities for different aspects of coaching.

[Cowshed]

11 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Of course coaches have particular skill sets to add but I've never heard anybody actually titled 'defensive coach'  - that was my point

 

Edit

Was intrigued by this and indeed you are correct - a few premclubs do have defensive coaches , or have had  seemingly and understandably set pieces being a common theme

I did hear Pardew say he had a specific set piece coach and a specific analyst for set pieces !

Its very possible, as in highly probable that this occurs at City as it is so routine. The traditionalists may loathe it, but expected goals are based on the study of data, hitting areas - positions of maximum opportunity, corridors of confusion - Terms used in Lee Johnsons presentations at other clubs.

[Jack Dawe]

2 hours ago, ashton_fan said:

Even if Pembo was the defensive coach he didn't pick the team other than the five games when he was in charge, during that time we didn't concede more than 1. I don't see how he could be responsible for us letting in goals if he's not choosing the players, eg we know he encouraged Cotts to change to a back four since we kept getting caught on the break using the wing-back system but Cotts wouldn't budge.

Holden's arrival coincided with a dismal run of results, while Pemberton's departure coincided with an upturn in results (although including Preston away). Make of that what you will.

[BobBobSuperBob]

24 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Its very possible, as in highly probable that this occurs at City as it is so routine. The traditionalists may loathe it, but expected goals are based on the study of data, hitting areas - positions of maximum opportunity, corridors of confusion - Terms used in Lee Johnsons presentations at other clubs.

Not that new -Charles Hughes the Fa Coaching guru of 70s/80s was the inventor' of POMO !!! 

Thats why we had Becks Cambridge ,Wimbledon etc !!!!

 

i still ask when and by whom was JP referred to as our defensive coach

[BS4 on Tour...]

52 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Of course coaches have particular skill sets to add but I've never heard anybody actually titled 'defensive coach' 

I remember Mark Lawrenson was appointed defensive coach at Newcastle, under Keegan I think...he was soon released when they let in loads of goals!

[BobBobSuperBob]

Just now, BS4 on Tour... said:

I remember Mark Lawrenson was appointed defensive coach at Newcastle, under Keegan I think...he was soon released when they let in loads of goals!

Good memory BS4 !

Remember that now you've mentioned it 

[Rich]

21 hours ago, JamesBCFC said:

I said we couldnt form a long term view on how he did because he had 4 games. That in itself was reasonable and favourable to him

Pembo had a role as the defensive coach. Having a shocking defensive record for 75% of his time in that role suggests something is amiss, even taking into acount potential outside factors.

1.Referring to one comment which didn't deride or undermine him, is not quite the same as aiming numerous unsubstantiated allegations against him. You are not excused.

2. Pemberton, was not a defensive coach and, has only been referred to or, inferred to as such, to suit some peoples stories, which is what I feared. So, he didn't have this made up poor defensive record, though it suited some people to have a whipping boy. 

I don't think I need to say too much more, as it's already been explained.

Has  there ever been a survey on Holdens record since he's been here? If not here goes.

Played 33

Won       8

Drawn    6

Lost      17

Points accrued  30

Average PPG    0.937

Surprisingly, he's still in a job. Obviously he's not the defensive coach, he's only the attacking coach, the midfield coach and the link up to defense coach, he has absolutely nowt to do with defending.

[JamesBCFC]

17 minutes ago, Rich said:

1.Referring to one comment which didn't deride or undermine him, is not quite the same as aiming numerous unsubstantiated allegations against him. You are not excused.

2. Pemberton, was not a defensive coach and, has only been referred to or, inferred to as such, to suit some peoples stories, which is what I feared. So, he didn't have this made up poor defensive record, though it suited some people to have a whipping boy. 

I don't think I need to say too much more, as it's already been explained.

Has  there ever been a survey on Holdens record since he's been here? If not here goes.

Played 33

Won       8

Drawn    6

Lost      17

Points accrued  30

Average PPG    0.937

Surprisingly, he's still in a job. Obviously he's not the defensive coach, he's only the attacking coach, the midfield coach and the link up to defense coach, he has absolutely nowt to do with defending.

I am certain that it was mentioned in an interview that Pemberton was coaching the defenses.

I currently do not have internet access at home to trawl through the interviews on player, but as I think harder about it, it was likely around the time of Holden joining. LJ mentioned that having 2 assistant coaches would allow more specialisation in training (for lack of a better word) and that Pemberton would take the defensive side of things and Holden would work with the attackers. IIRC there was then a thread on here where people then questioned having Holden as an attacking coach, given that he was a defender.

Of course if I have that time right, then it may well absolve Pemberton of some of the blame for our tragic defensive record for 3 of the 4 seasons he was here. But he (along with all the coaching staff and the managers) all have some of the burden to shoulder when it comes to these things in training, and would still get some of it (again, along with everyone else).

[Rich]

Just now, JamesBCFC said:

I am certain that it was mentioned in an interview that Pemberton was coaching the defenses.

I currently do not have internet access at home to trawl through the interviews on player, but as I think harder about it, it was likely around the time of Holden joining. LJ mentioned that having 2 assistant coaches would allow more specialisation in training (for lack of a better word) and that Pemberton would take the defensive side of things and Holden would work with the attackers. IIRC there was then a thread on here where people then questioned having Holden as an attacking coach, given that he was a defender.

Of course if I have that time right, then it may well absolve Pemberton of some of the blame for our tragic defensive record for 3 of the 4 seasons he was here. But he (along with all the coaching staff and the managers) all have some of the burden to shoulder when it comes to these things in training, and would still get some of it (again, along with everyone else).

So, it's our defensive record now, not just Pembertons? He's absolved of some of the blame, how gracious of you.

If you wait a bit longer, I'll pop a spade over and help dig you out of that hole.

[Cowshed]

1 hour ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Not that new -Charles Hughes the Fa Coaching guru of 70s/80s was the inventor' of POMO !!! 

Thats why we had Becks Cambridge ,Wimbledon etc !!!!

 

i still ask when and by whom was JP referred to as our defensive coach

It was Charles Reep who influenced Mr Hughes and pomo.

Things have moved on somewhat and I was referring to tools such as sportstec, sportscode and clubs having a in house analyst.

[BobBobSuperBob]

3 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

It was Charles Reep who influenced Mr Hughes and pomo.

Things have moved on somewhat and I was referring to tools such as sportstec, sportscode and clubs having a in house analyst.

I stand corrected Cowshed - Forgot about Reep 

[JamesBCFC]

14 minutes ago, Rich said:

So, it's our defensive record now, not just Pembertons? He's absolved of some of the blame, how gracious of you.

If you wait a bit longer, I'll pop a spade over and help dig you out of that hole.

It has always been "our" defensive record. Keep twisting what was said though...

[Rich]

Just now, JamesBCFC said:

It has always been "our" defensive record. Keep twisting what was said though...

Excuse me but, Pemberton's,  "he didn't have a good defensive record", "he was not doing his job properly" and that "he failed in his duties", your quotes,  does not really share the blame for, "our" defensive record. You put it squarely at his feet. I'm not twisting your words, it doesn't matter how many times you say it. Give up while the goings good, PLEASE.

[JamesBCFC]

9 hours ago, Rich said:

Excuse me but, Pemberton's,  "he didn't have a good defensive record", "he was not doing his job properly" and that "he failed in his duties", your quotes,  does not really share the blame for, "our" defensive record. You put it squarely at his feet. I'm not twisting your words, it doesn't matter how many times you say it. Give up while the goings good, PLEASE.

While typing those I was saying it thinking he was our defensive coach for his whole time here.

At that point his defensive record here, and our defensive record are one and the same.

All you did above was remove the context from where I said those particular words.

I have then said that I may have been wrong (something you were completely unable to do when it came to Johnsons overal record here) about Pemberton being defensive coach for all that time. But he, along with all our coaching staff, must still shoulder some responsibility for us having a terrible defensive record in 3 out of 4 seasons. 

 

I really have no issue with Pemberton even though you claim I'm deriding and undermining him (I suggest you get a dictionary, I have done no such thing to JP). I have said he wasnt the messiah you seem to think of him as, and therefore questioned/criticised any shortcomings.

I thank Pemberton for his time here and the role he had during our double winning season, but just like Cotterill, being involved in that doesn't make someone immune to criticism.

[Rich]

9 hours ago, JamesBCFC said:

While typing those I was saying it thinking he was our defensive coach for his whole time here.

At that point his defensive record here, and our defensive record are one and the same.

All you did above was remove the context from where I said those particular words.

I have then said that I may have been wrong (something you were completely unable to do when it came to Johnsons overal record here) about Pemberton being defensive coach for all that time. But he, along with all our coaching staff, must still shoulder some responsibility for us having a terrible defensive record in 3 out of 4 seasons. 

 

I really have no issue with Pemberton even though you claim I'm deriding and undermining him (I suggest you get a dictionary, I have done no such thing to JP). I have said he wasnt the messiah you seem to think of him as, and therefore questioned/criticised any shortcomings.

I thank Pemberton for his time here and the role he had during our double winning season, but just like Cotterill, being involved in that doesn't make someone immune to criticism.

Throughout this thread you have laid the blame for the clubs defensive record at the feet of Pemberton, our "defensive coach", until, it was proven that he wasn't actually the "defensive coach", it turns out he was only referred to as that, once he'd left. I did ask the question in an earlier post about whether he was "defensive coach", as I thought it was convenient to have a scapegoat, big business does that sort of thing.

You have stated that ,"he didn't have a good defensive record", "he was not doing his job properly" and that "he failed in his duties", those are your quotes.  Even though you admit you "may have been wrong" in referring to him as the "defensive coach", not actually admitting that are you?  You still followed it with, he should still shoulder the blame along with other coaches for his tenure here.

You obviously still think those statements are correct as you have not retracted them, even though they are your opinion of events based on a misunderstanding of his role. O'Driscoll shouldered the blame, Cotterill did, Pemberton did, should any body else out of all the coaches?

As you rightly point out, we've had a terrible record in three out of four seasons he's been here, this seems slightly contradictory as it includes his time as assistant to Lee, who, according to you, had the record of a top championship manager. His time here also included the double winning season and end of season prior to that. So using your theory, he could only have had one season as a poor defensive record, that was under O'Driscoll.

Talk about twisting words, you are a master at it.  At no point have I claimed or thought that Pemberton was the messiah, dreaming that bit aren't we? I would just like a fair representation of his role as an understudy to the head coach/manager.

How can I say I was wrong about Lee's record here?

Here is my quote from post 41: "I cannot deny the figures over his tenure, but, I think one has to dig a little deeper and analyse them to get a truer picture".  That is exactly what I was asking you to do, in relation to Pemberton's time here. Unfortunately, you have used hard facts to prove a point but, based on an assumption which turned out to be incorrect.

Deride = To laugh at, speak of, or write about dismissively or contemptuously.

I have a dictionary, and I fail to see how your snide comment is relevant.

You have back tracked after getting things wrong and are now trying to save face by making stupid comments.