Cowshed Posted July 17, 2017 Report Share Posted July 17, 2017 44 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said: Interesting argument, but I really don't think you can teach man management skills. There is no shortcut. You either have the empathy and instinct or you don't. I've seen this in so many jobs, and I have no reason to believe that it would operate any differently in sport. It's sometimes something that can develop as one ages, but the unfortunate corollary is you can sometimes become "set in your ways" and resistant to change. Again, I'm talking about any type of manager here, not just football. I would make no defence of Mr Johnsons Management skills. Regarding learning, it is no argument, its fact. Human beings learn differently person to person Technology provides tools in differing forms that can save time and aid the above communication. They can be an immense help. They also could be damaging if used in a negative manner e.g. highlighting poor performance to a player whose pre performance mindset is already fearful almost certainly won't lead to an improvement. At Manchester City players can view their own performance minutes after training from various camera angles via large screens in private purpose built small cinemas seating small groups, then view their SAQ and performance stats on their lap top. Having that performance appropriately praised helps to set a positive pre match mindset. It is not witchcraft, or complex. Its simple as people want it to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted July 17, 2017 Report Share Posted July 17, 2017 1 minute ago, Cowshed said: I would make no defence of Mr Johnsons Management skills. Regarding learning, it is no argument, its fact. Human beings learn differently person to person Technology provides tools in differing forms that can save time and aid the above communication. They can be an immense help. They also could be damaging if used in a negative manner e.g. highlighting poor performance to a player whose pre performance mindset is already fearful almost certainly won't lead to an improvement. At Manchester City players can view their own performance minutes after training from various angles, then view their SAQ and performance stats on their lap top. Having that performance appropriately praised helps to set a pre match mindset. It is not witchcraft, or complex. And in making no defence of LJ you undermine the argument that technology can "teach" management. Clearly not the case here. I'd agree that technology can augment certain coaching skills. @EnderMB hit the nail on the head, when he noted you need the right tools in the right hands. I just don't think it'll ever be able to do much about the human touch: the empathy; the balance of diplomacy with discipline; the personal judgement of character, that you need to be a good manager. When I worked for a large corporation, bosses on my grade were always being sent on courses at a "management college" and (although it sounded like a good skive!) I always refused to go. Those who did, never came back better at managing a team and often - their heads stuffed with jargon and theory - were made worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowshed Posted July 17, 2017 Report Share Posted July 17, 2017 2 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said: And in making no defence of LJ you undermine the argument that technology can "teach" management. Clearly not the case here. I'd agree that technology can augment certain coaching skills. @EnderMB hit the nail on the head, when he noted you need the right tools in the right hands. I just don't think it'll ever be able to do much about the human touch: the empathy; the balance of diplomacy with discipline; the personal judgement of character, that you need to be a good manager. When I worked for a large corporation, bosses on my grade were always being sent on courses at a "management college" and (although it sounded like a good skive!) I always refused to go. Those who did, never came back better at managing a team and often - their heads stuffed with jargon and theory - were made worse. I did not state technology teaches Management. I simply responded to a post that says it is bullshit that baffles brains. These tools are whatever you want them to be. That is all they are, tools! Got a ball winning centre half that struggles to understand the corner kick routine show him on a screen, get a drone, use cones, stick wheelie bins on the training pitch its all a means to the same end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibor Posted July 17, 2017 Report Share Posted July 17, 2017 18 minutes ago, Cowshed said: Regarding learning, it is no argument, its fact. Human beings learn differently person to person There's some strong research debunking that idea in the education field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted July 17, 2017 Report Share Posted July 17, 2017 Just now, Cowshed said: I did not state technology teaches Management. I simply responded to a post that says it is bullshit that baffles brains. These tools are whatever you want them to be. That is all they are, tools! Got a ball winning centre half that struggles to understand the corner kick routine show him on a screen, get a drone, use cones, stick wheelie bins on the training pitch its all a means to the same end. Well we're in agreement then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowshed Posted July 17, 2017 Report Share Posted July 17, 2017 3 minutes ago, Nibor said: There's some strong research debunking that idea in the education field. With all respects from my experiences in my working life and my coaching life I would state that anybody who thinks that human beings do not learn differently is an idiot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibor Posted July 17, 2017 Report Share Posted July 17, 2017 2 minutes ago, Cowshed said: With all respects from my experiences in my working life and my coaching life I would state that anybody who thinks that human beings do not learn differently is an idiot. Well, I'd suggest people who work in education and take the time to study cognitive ability scientifically are more credible than anecdotal experience of individuals - dismissing science out of hand would be idiocy for me. People learn at different rates largely linked to intelligence, they have different attention spans and motivations for different mediums but they do not vary much in how effectively they take in information from different styles unless they have a disability. Most people can kid themselves quite effectively though, and someone trying to educate a group can waste an awful lot of effort by believing this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowshed Posted July 17, 2017 Report Share Posted July 17, 2017 1 minute ago, Nibor said: People learn at different rates largely linked to intelligence, they have different attention spans and motivations for different mediums but they do not vary much in how effectively they take in information from different styles unless they have a disability. People learn at different rates ... Yes. They have different attention spans ... Yes. Most communication is non verbal and again people will respond differently to this non verbal communication, which affects how they learn. People can heavily use one learning style ... Its normal. People will combine one of the three/four or seven learning styles depending on which theory you believe, follow or employ. People with disabilities may not be able to use variables of the above at all. Yes people learn differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myol'man Posted July 17, 2017 Report Share Posted July 17, 2017 Mike Bassett never needed technology Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibor Posted July 17, 2017 Report Share Posted July 17, 2017 22 minutes ago, Cowshed said: People learn at different rates ... Yes. They have different attention spans ... Yes. Most communication is non verbal and again people will respond differently to this non verbal communication, which affects how they learn. People can heavily use one learning style ... Its normal. People will combine one of the three/four or seven learning styles depending on which theory you believe, follow or employ. People with disabilities may not be able to use variables of the above at all. Yes people learn differently. If you're professionally involved in helping people learn you'd definitely benefit from reading recent research on the fallacy of learning styles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowshed Posted July 17, 2017 Report Share Posted July 17, 2017 32 minutes ago, Nibor said: If you're professionally involved in helping people learn you'd definitely benefit from reading recent research on the fallacy of learning styles. And until there is a seismic shift in thinking which is evidence based I won't be ignoring my education, training and own learning via experience. I experience daily (well tomorrow I will) people learning and communicating in different manners. It is not a fallacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibor Posted July 17, 2017 Report Share Posted July 17, 2017 1 hour ago, Cowshed said: And until there is a seismic shift in thinking which is evidence based I won't be ignoring my education, training and own learning via experience. I experience daily (well tomorrow I will) people learning and communicating in different manners. It is not a fallacy. If you disregard the scientific evidence how will you know? There's a lot of "common wisdom" in the training industry which is completely at odds with research, because people take this attitude. The worst that could happen is you might learn something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddoh Posted July 17, 2017 Report Share Posted July 17, 2017 43 minutes ago, Nibor said: If you disregard the scientific evidence how will you know? There's a lot of "common wisdom" in the training industry which is completely at odds with research, because people take this attitude. The worst that could happen is you might learn something. 1 hour ago, Cowshed said: And until there is a seismic shift in thinking which is evidence based I won't be ignoring my education, training and own learning via experience. I experience daily (well tomorrow I will) people learning and communicating in different manners. It is not a fallacy. not sure who to like but you both are correct in a way fact is money makes the difference which has the money? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AppyDAZE Posted July 17, 2017 Report Share Posted July 17, 2017 On 15/07/2017 at 11:53, Alan Dicks said: Its all a lot of old tosh, the game needs more Warnock types. What, cheats? Yeah, right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Red Posted July 17, 2017 Report Share Posted July 17, 2017 On 15/07/2017 at 10:33, Phileas Fogg said: Players may ask that of Wenger, Mourinho, Bielsa etc - none of them remarkable players themselves. It's not really that relevant. It is when LJ not only was a no mark in the game but also has such horrendous losing streaks already as a head coach. Players know this and the respect wont be there, its only natural. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobBobSuperBob Posted July 17, 2017 Report Share Posted July 17, 2017 18 minutes ago, bris red said: It is when LJ not only was a no mark in the game but also has such horrendous losing streaks already as a head coach. Players know this and the respect wont be there, its only natural. If that was true you'd ptlrobably see our recruitment be from abroad where those things sent so well known....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fgrsimon Posted July 17, 2017 Report Share Posted July 17, 2017 7 hours ago, Cowshed said: It is not witchcraft, or complex. Its simple as people want it to be. That reminds me of the African football manager who when asked about the use of witchdoctors in African football said "We call them Witchdoctors, you call them Sports Psychologists" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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