The problem with England: insight from former players

[ChippenhamRed]

Some fascinating insight here. Struck by the palpable lack of joy these players got from representing England, the damaging club loyalties within the squad, and the forthright criticism of the manager (which I assumed to mean Sven mainly).

 

[simon uk]

Yeah interesting, we had good players, but ahdn you were playing against brazil in 2002, you had better be on your game. We were good, they were better

[Bris Red]

Watched anout 3 minutes of that and stopped. Absolute bollox for me im afraid, an easy excuse to use when in reality we just weren't good enough when it mattered. Do people not think there is MASSIVE rivalry in say Italy for example..? Ac Milan Juve and Inter hate each other for example yet there boys pulled together and did the business in 2006.. Rio Ferdinand is embarrassing himself 

[ChippenhamRed]

11 minutes ago, bris red said:

Watched anout 3 minutes of that and stopped. Absolute bollox for me im afraid, an easy excuse to use when in reality we just weren't good enough when it mattered. Do people not think there is MASSIVE rivalry in say Italy for example..? Ac Milan Juve and Inter hate each other for example yet there boys pulled together and did the business in 2006.. Rio Ferdinand is embarrassing himself 

If you watch the full 10 minutes you can make a fairer assessment. The players aren’t defending the inter-club issues, they are admitting it was there and that it was an issue. They don’t deny responsibility. You’re right that it wasn’t an issue for Italy but that’s the point; it was for England, and collectively they failed to address it.

[Clarky89]

20 minutes ago, bris red said:

Watched anout 3 minutes of that and stopped. Absolute bollox for me im afraid, an easy excuse to use when in reality we just weren't good enough when it mattered. Do people not think there is MASSIVE rivalry in say Italy for example..? Ac Milan Juve and Inter hate each other for example yet there boys pulled together and did the business in 2006.. Rio Ferdinand is embarrassing himself 

You should probably listen to the whole thing then. 

[Major Isewater]

22 minutes ago, bris red said:

Watched anout 3 minutes of that and stopped. Absolute bollox for me im afraid, an easy excuse to use when in reality we just weren't good enough when it mattered. Do people not think there is MASSIVE rivalry in say Italy for example..? Ac Milan Juve and Inter hate each other for example yet there boys pulled together and did the business in 2006.. Rio Ferdinand is embarrassing himself 

I haven't watched it at all and it's complete nonsense.

 

[ChippenhamRed]

41 minutes ago, simon uk said:

Yeah interesting, we had good players, but ahdn you were playing against brazil in 2002, you had better be on your game. We were good, they were better

We only lost that game by the old goal though, against a team that went on to win it. It’s not just about the ability of the individuals. Perhaps if we’d had a stronger mentality, more progressive tactics and a more cohesive team spirit we would have won the day.

[Mr X]

If interclub rivalry meant so much how did Spain do so well with most players coming from either Real Madrid or Barcelona!  

[ChippenhamRed]

2 minutes ago, Mr X said:

If interclub rivalry meant so much how did Spain do so well with most players coming from either Real Madrid or Barcelona!  

That’s the point though. It was an issue others have overcome to succeed but England have failed to address.

[Club and Country]

10 hours ago, Mr X said:

If interclub rivalry meant so much how did Spain do so well with most players coming from either Real Madrid or Barcelona!  

Yer and they underachieved for years before those rivalries were discussed and put aside

if you watch the video you will see them admitting and accepting they didn’t do that , and also the fact no one actually picked up there was an issue there at the time 

[Super]

Good watch. They are certainly right about the manager 4-4-2 was a disaster and wasted what was a top midfield we had back then.

[Simon79]

Good watch imo. Don't think it was anything we didn't really already know. The clicks, midfield problems and no plan were always well documented. Scholes left midfield still baffles me today! COYR 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Will watch it later but should be interesting.

4-4-2 was a terrible formation though by 2006 we had moved away from that under Sven at last. Think we generally played 4-2-3-1/4-5-1 in 06?

[Malago]

I know no better than anyone else, but from the newspaper articles I’ve read and a few books it seems a lot of the internal problems within the England dressing room were caused by Gary Neville and the ban Ferdinand got for missing a drugs test.  I believe he wanted the England players to go on strike in an effort to get the ban overturned and was told where to go, particularly by players from Liverpool.

[Assassin Reid]

A midfield of Beckham, Gerrard, Lampard and Scholes. Aaaargh......what a wasted opportunity that was. 

The WC in 2010 under Postman Pat's regime was an utter disgrace. Absolutely pathetic. 

[Erithacus]

It raises the perpetual problem - club or country. The players were (are still?) keen to be in the national squad but the underlying mentality still rankles. Hearts are distracted by Premiership glory and money. It's not an excuse.

[Son of Fred]

19 hours ago, ChippenhamRed said:

If you watch the full 10 minutes you can make a fairer assessment. The players aren’t defending the inter-club issues, they are admitting it was there and that it was an issue. They don’t deny responsibility. You’re right that it wasn’t an issue for Italy but that’s the point; it was for England, and collectively they failed to address it.

They should really,really grow up.....to represent your national side and then state publicly that they were so immature as to let club rivalry ' get in the way???????.....pretty dumb.

Would differing 'arms/regiments/squadrons within the military allow rivalries between 'comparible units to obstruct the common aim???????..

Commonly known as professionalism.

[ZiderEyed]

10 hours ago, Erithacus said:

It raises the perpetual problem - club or country. The players were (are still?) keen to be in the national squad but the underlying mentality still rankles. Hearts are distracted by Premiership glory and money. It's not an excuse.

Playing for England WAS and SHOULD be the proudest moment for an English footballer.

[Welcome To The Jungle]

5 hours ago, Robert the bruce said:

They should really,really grow up.....to represent your national side and then state publicly that they were so immature as to let club rivalry ' get in the way???????.....pretty dumb.

Would differing 'arms/regiments/squadrons within the military allow rivalries between 'comparible units to obstruct the common aim???????..

Commonly known as professionalism.

But like they said, they didn't realise it was happening, and only when they look back can they see all the issues. But then none of them were using it as an excuse, they used it as a reason, which are two different things.

[downendcity]

18 minutes ago, ZiderEyed said:

Playing for England WAS and SHOULD be the proudest moment for an English footballer.

Back in the day, international selection was the springboard to a player's career and would usually result in financial betterment and often a move to a bigger club and better wages. 

Now, almost every player is financially secure for life well before they are ever selected for their country, so I while I'm sure most have the same degree of pride in playing for their country I do wonder whether they have the same desire to really push themselves for the financial rewards it will bring.

I also suspect that top clubs put pressure on their players as far as international appearances are concerned, hence the amazing number of players dropping out of friendlies with injuries that miraculously clear up just in time for the next club fixture e.g. Ryan Giggs never played a friendly for Wales.

[ZiderEyed]

Just now, downendcity said:

Back in the day, international selection was the springboard to a player's career and would usually result in financial betterment and often a move to a bigger club and better wages. 

Now, almost every player is financially secure for life well before they are ever selected for their country, so I while I'm sure most have the same degree of pride in playing for their country I do wonder whether they have the same desire to really push themselves for the financial rewards it will bring.

I also suspect that top clubs put pressure on their players as far as international appearances are concerned, hence the amazing number of players dropping out of friendlies with injuries that miraculously clear up just in time for the next club fixture e.g. Ryan Giggs never played a friendly for Wales.

Almost certainly.

I just find it a little bit reprehensible that money is all that matters, I don't think I've seen a player in the England squad look as though they're bursting with pride just at being picked. You get to represent your country, you have the opportunity to make absolutely millions of people proud. 

Bring back Psycho and Gazza.

[ExiledAjax]

30 minutes ago, Welcome To The Jungle said:

But like they said, they didn't realise it was happening, and only when they look back can they see all the issues. But then none of them were using it as an excuse, they used it as a reason, which are two different things.

Absolutely, and they gave a few other reasons that contributed.  The rigid 442 was one.  Ferdinand seemed to be suggesting that we should have been playing with a packed midfield - a 451 or even a 352 - in order to make the most of the areas of the pitch in which we had the most talent.  He seemed to think that Sven, Capello etc had not been brave enough to stray form the 442 the England are 'supposed' to play.

Also the point about the difference in playing styles between club and country, and what the players are asked to do for each team.  At club level these guys were paying in fantastic squads.  They weren't the best player and they weren't carrying a team. They played with tons of possession and expected to win. Then England come along and they're a sked to play out of position, chasing shadows, knowing they'll concede.  The psyche is totally different, much less pleasant and much harder to win.

[cider-manc]

On 26/11/2017 at 09:09, Mr X said:

If interclub rivalry meant so much how did Spain do so well with most players coming from either Real Madrid or Barcelona!  

The midfield that won the 2010 world cup final was effectively Barcelona's plus Alonso. Ramos was playing right back so Barcelona's centre back pairing of Pique and Puyol could play. And up front they started with Pedro and Villa of.... Barcelona.

So there were 3 Madrid players who started- Casillas in goal, Ramos out of position and Alonso. But there was 7 from Barcelona. Their squad might still have been divided but their starting line up was very much Barcelona.

It was by 2012 that the team started to balance out between Real and Barcelona by which point most of the players had been playing successfully together for 4 years (lets be honest it's easier to be friends with your team mates when you are winning).

It's also worth pointing out that since that team has started breaking up- despite still having a lot of world class players- Spain have reached the same point of the last two major tournaments as England... 

[DaveInSA]

I cringed. Almost all the way through. When Gerrard said "we got to 1/4 finals and I think fans would be happy with that now", shows a complete lack of understanding. We're half the team on paper today - to compare a ferrari with a land rover defender is meaningless. I fancy if he wasn't a dodgy scouse scally I would punch him on the nose.

Back then, we should have been in the finals of tournaments and winning. These lads wasted their talent in an England shirt, for what - glory with their clubs. 

And the management were rubbish. A Man U table, a Liverpool table at meal times. Surely a sports psychologist (or even anyone with a bit of common sense) would go, mmm, these lads aren't getting on so well. Maybe we should try something different? 

Look at what team spirit can achieve (our current season is case in point - we don't have stand out players at all) but we're a unit, a team that doesn't give up.

I really can't stand all these jumped up prima donna's. 

[Super]

2 minutes ago, DaveInSA said:

I cringed. Almost all the way through. When Gerrard said "we got to 1/4 finals and I think fans would be happy with that now", shows a complete lack of understanding. We're half the team on paper today - to compare a ferrari with a land rover defender is meaningless. I fancy if he wasn't a dodgy scouse scally I would punch him on the nose.

Back then, we should have been in the finals of tournaments and winning. These lads wasted their talent in an England shirt, for what - glory with their clubs. 

And the management were rubbish. A Man U table, a Liverpool table at meal times. Surely a sports psychologist (or even anyone with a bit of common sense) would go, mmm, these lads aren't getting on so well. Maybe we should try something different? 

Look at what team spirit can achieve (our current season is case in point - we don't have stand out players at all) but we're a unit, a team that doesn't give up.

I really can't stand all these jumped up prima donna's. 

He didn't actually say reaching a 1/4 final was a success. It's a managers job to get the best out of the players and play a formation to get the best out of them sadly not one manager did that.

[The turtle]

On 26/11/2017 at 10:09, Mr X said:

If interclub rivalry meant so much how did Spain do so well with most players coming from either Real Madrid or Barcelona!  

 Spain had massive problems with their national team, for  many years they were individuals never a unit.

Luis aragones had a lot to do with the change in philosophy, He broke up the cliques that existed within the squad. he made them understand what it meant to play for Spain.

he dropped Raul for David villa, he changed the whole Spanish team culture.

..

this extended to mourinho's time in charge of real. He was trying to create real hatred between real and Barca. Puyol and casillas, realised the danger to the Spanish squad, so agreed a pact of peace. 

Mourinho considered this treason and has a huge dislike of casillas to this day.

[The turtle]

2 hours ago, ZiderEyed said:

Playing for England WAS and SHOULD be the proudest moment for an English footballer.

As a fan, If only one could happen,Would you prefer to see city get to the premier league this year or England win the world cup in the summer?

[downendcity]

1 hour ago, ExiledAjax said:

Absolutely, and they gave a few other reasons that contributed.  The rigid 442 was one.  Ferdinand seemed to be suggesting that we should have been playing with a packed midfield - a 451 or even a 352 - in order to make the most of the areas of the pitch in which we had the most talent.  He seemed to think that Sven, Capello etc had not been brave enough to stray form the 442 the England are 'supposed' to play.

Also the point about the difference in playing styles between club and country, and what the players are asked to do for each team.  At club level these guys were paying in fantastic squads.  They weren't the best player and they weren't carrying a team. They played with tons of possession and expected to win. Then England come along and they're a sked to play out of position, chasing shadows, knowing they'll concede.  The psyche is totally different, much less pleasant and much harder to win.

Gerrard was.

[ZiderEyed]

10 minutes ago, The turtle said:

As a fan, If only one could happen,Would you prefer to see city get to the premier league this year or England win the world cup in the summer?

City, purely due to how disillusioned I feel about England. If you'd asked me in 96 you'd have got a very different answer.

[The turtle]

Just now, ZiderEyed said:

City, purely due to how disillusioned I feel about England. If you'd asked me in 96 you'd have got a very different answer.

I think a lot of fans would give the same answer. Regardless of how well England or city are doing.

I would choose city every time. If we as fans choose England 2nd, how can we expect players to be different. 

* maybe it depends how successful the team you support is eg when is that next success likely to appear?