Sunderland

[Wanderingred]

2 minutes ago, sephjnr said:

It doesn't, not at all. Both viewpoints are technically correct. The real issue is another club's plight being used primarily by yourself to downplay the arse falling out of our season. We really should be looking at our own plight on its own merit, as others in this thread are trying to do. Bar BS3 clearly isn't interested, perhaps you might lend a hand by stating anything that I've said is categorically wrong?

I'll repeat this again.. I'm not trying to downplay our problems, I started this thread to highlight the issue at Sunderland and what"s gone so badly wrong there. Hence the thread title SUNDERLAND which should make the topic of this thread very clear. There are countless other threads to discuss our own "plight" of which I have posted my thoughts.

[sephjnr]

6 hours ago, Wanderingred said:

 I'm not trying to downplay our problems, 

 

12 hours ago, Wanderingred said:

Sunderland fans have thrown the towel in and feel that it's all over for them after Brum's win at Bolton put them 8 points from safety. For anyone who likes a bit of schadenfreude or for those that need some perspective at our current run, have a peek at their fans forum. We've had a bad run lasting a couple of months... It's more like two whole seasons for this lot! Two home wins in 18 months, years since they managed back to back wins, parachute payments completely wasted.. A once proud club reduced to an absolute shambles. Things could be a lot lot worse lads!!

That is downplaying. Not doubting your heart at all, but that's exactly what you're doing. 

[Bryans Left Peg]

10 hours ago, frenchred said:

You could also go the other way and see what teams like Huddersfield, Watford and Burnley etc have done that we appear incapable of doing under our current owner and/or coach. Just for a bit of perspective

It's been three seasons. Three seasons that we've been in this division. Do people honestly think that Bristol City have a divine right to go up ahead of the 23 other clubs in this division? We've gone from a league one team to 7th in the Championship with an outside chance of getting playoffs within 3 years.

Do you think Aston Villa are in the same boat? Cardiff? Boro? Norwich? Fulham? Leeds? Ipswich? Reading? Birmingham? Derby? Wolves?

No, they've had years in the Premier League or at the higher end of the Championship receiving more money (including parachute payments), attracting better players, and they've have more time to assemble the squad they have now, at this level to make that push. We're still above 17 teams.

We were literally tipped pre-season for relegation and we're sat in 7th. It's an achievement. It's progress.

 

Just for a bit of perspective.

[The Batman]

I was actually contemplating starting a Sunderland thread. According to a friend of mine, they could be relegated next Tuesday if results go against them.

I've kept an eye on them all season and the whole club is rotten. I feel for the fans (let's be fair, there isn't much in that part of the world to do so football is a lot of people's escapism) - but the drinking culture at the club - Cattermole being banned from all pubs and being arrested with Lord Bendtner for smashing up a load of cars a few years ago, Gibson recent drink driving in addition to previous drunken rants in pubs in previous years - it is utter toxic. I remember when we were managed under Wilson and there was always talk of a bad drinking culture here, it is nothing compared to the stories you here with Sunderland players - granted, some could be exaggerated, but there is no smoke without fire. This is not a recent thing either, this has been going on for a long time.

There was also a lot of animosity over the Adam Johnson incident, where the hirachy within the club knew but kept quiet and continued to play him hoping he'd help them avoid relegation.

Plus paying an injury prone player £70k a week without a relegation clause was not good business by the club - a lot of talk now is that he is fit but is refusing to play. It is an utter shambles. Many behind the scene staff have had to be made redundant due to the financial cutbacks, but Rodwell can collect his £70k a week and he can't be arsed to do his job because he wants away. Nobody is going to pay him anywhere near the money he is on now. Cattermole too is on a hefty wedge and they still both have at least 1 year left on their contracts. That is over £100k a week on two players' wages in League 1 (if they do go down)

Roy Keane left not so long after Ellis Short took control of the club with the new consortium - i wonder what he saw that made him jump. They have had 12 managers since and that was 9 years ago.

[glynriley]

8 hours ago, Bryans Left Peg said:

It's been three seasons. Three seasons that we've been in this division. Do people honestly think that Bristol City have a divine right to go up ahead of the 23 other clubs in this division? We've gone from a league one team to 7th in the Championship with an outside chance of getting playoffs within 3 years.

Do you think Aston Villa are in the same boat? Cardiff? Boro? Norwich? Fulham? Leeds? Ipswich? Reading? Birmingham? Derby? Wolves?

No, they've had years in the Premier League or at the higher end of the Championship receiving more money (including parachute payments), attracting better players, and they've have more time to assemble the squad they have now, at this level to make that push. We're still above 17 teams.

We were literally tipped pre-season for relegation and we're sat in 7th. It's an achievement. It's progress.

 

Just for a bit of perspective.

No I don't think anyone believes that.

The frustration is that, from being 2nd on boxing day, many would think we were going to have a bloody good go at getting promotion from this league, 10 years on from the last opportunity.

January looks like a wasted window and a chance to stick it to all those clubs you mention above, the majority of which will realistically believe they will give it another shot next season.

Our chances don't come around that often and the last 16 games have been a  disappointment given what went before. Forget being tipped for relegation pre-season, we had a shot, and right now, it looks like we've blown it.

[ScottishRed]

21 hours ago, Red Right Hand said:

Ellis Short. I think he`s American and is looking to offload the club but wants his money back so won`t sell them cheap.

He might have to cut his losses now though although if they tear up League 1 they`ll start getting good crowds at the SOL again irrespective of the opposition and their value could rise.

Personally I think when he does get rid there may be a lot of questions asked about where the parachute payments went in a Blackpool sense.

The owner is apparently prepared to sell the club for £1.............as long as the purchaser picks up the debts......£250m

I am not sure I understand how they have managed to get to that level of debt given all their years in the PL.

Yes, they do / did have to pay premium wages to get players to live up their but I don't recall them spending large transfer fees.

[glynriley]

17 minutes ago, ScottishRed said:

The owner is apparently prepared to sell the club for £1.............as long as the purchaser picks up the debts......£250m

I am not sure I understand how they have managed to get to that level of debt given all their years in the PL.

Yes, they do / did have to pay premium wages to get players to live up their but I don't recall them spending large transfer fees.

Paying off managers every season probably doesn't help!!

[Bob Turnip]

2 hours ago, glynriley said:

No I don't think anyone believes that.

The frustration is that, from being 2nd on boxing day, many would think we were going to have a bloody good go at getting promotion from this league, 10 years on from the last opportunity.

January looks like a wasted window and a chance to stick it to all those clubs you mention above, the majority of which will realistically believe they will give it another shot next season.

Our chances don't come around that often and the last 16 games have been a  disappointment given what went before. Forget being tipped for relegation pre-season, we had a shot, and right now, it looks like we've blown it.

The thing is, we still have all of the players that got us to 2nd on boxing day. Yes, I except we needed cover in some positions, but at the time would people have thought that bringing in 3 big signings (that wanted to come in Jan) and chucking them in the team would have been acceptable? Breaking up a winning team that got us to 2nd? If we had and the same thing had happend people would be slating the club for changing a winning team.

I guess what I'm saying is most critics are based on hindsight rather than judging the decisions made at the time. If I have a squad on boxing day that are 2nd, and I was to keep the momentem, do I change things or keep them the same? I'd keep it the same and try to get options in as back up which I think we did. I think it's more a combination of other factors than the transfer window that's caused our poor recent form.

 

 

[glynriley]

32 minutes ago, Paul Turnip said:

The thing is, we still have all of the players that got us to 2nd on boxing day. Yes, I except we needed cover in some positions, but at the time would people have thought that bringing in 3 big signings (that wanted to come in Jan) and chucking them in the team would have been acceptable? Breaking up a winning team that got us to 2nd? If we had and the same thing had happend people would be slating the club for changing a winning team.

I guess what I'm saying is most critics are based on hindsight rather than judging the decisions made at the time. If I have a squad on boxing day that are 2nd, and I was to keep the momentem, do I change things or keep them the same? I'd keep it the same and try to get options in as back up which I think we did. I think it's more a combination of other factors than the transfer window that's caused our poor recent form.

 

 

Appreciate what you're saying but we didn't go far enough in getting the back up we needed IMO.

Pisano being the main one. He'd been out for what, 2 months at Christmas, we got by by using BW there, but that was causing it's own issue in not being able to rest and rotate the defence enough. And as soon as he was suspended/injured we're faffing about with Smith and Brownhill

Similar problems in MF where you had GON, O'Dowda, Hegeler all injured (still are?).

We should have been prepared at least for recruiting a RB well in advance of the window. Players who could come straight in and add to the squad, not untried youngsters / foreigners. All in my opinion of course, but it's 2008 all over again for me. Opportunity knocked and we didn't get to the door in time.

See you in 2028 - **** me I'll be nearly 60!!

[The Batman]

59 minutes ago, glynriley said:

Appreciate what you're saying but we didn't go far enough in getting the back up we needed IMO.

Pisano being the main one. He'd been out for what, 2 months at Christmas, we got by by using BW there, but that was causing it's own issue in not being able to rest and rotate the defence enough. And as soon as he was suspended/injured we're faffing about with Smith and Brownhill

Similar problems in MF where you had GON, O'Dowda, Hegeler all injured (still are?).

We should have been prepared at least for recruiting a RB well in advance of the window. Players who could come straight in and add to the squad, not untried youngsters / foreigners. All in my opinion of course, but it's 2008 all over again for me. Opportunity knocked and we didn't get to the door in time.

See you in 2028 - **** me I'll be nearly 60!!

Is there not a shout to bring back Vyner and / or Moore back. Granted they are playing at a lower level but by all accounts, both are playing exceptionally well.

[Lanterne Rouge]

8 minutes ago, The Batman said:

Is there not a shout to bring back Vyner and / or Moore back. Granted they are playing at a lower level but by all accounts, both are playing exceptionally well.

We can`t under the new loan rules, or rather we could but they wouldn`t be eligible to play for us until the season finishes.

[The Batman]

44 minutes ago, Red Right Hand said:

We can`t under the new loan rules, or rather we could but they wouldn`t be eligible to play for us until the season finishes.

Cheers RRH.

No point in bringing them back if that is the case. I'd rather they were playing first team football in a lower division rather than U23 / reserves

[ScottishRed]

2 hours ago, Paul Turnip said:

The thing is, we still have all of the players that got us to 2nd on boxing day. Yes, I except we needed cover in some positions, but at the time would people have thought that bringing in 3 big signings (that wanted to come in Jan) and chucking them in the team would have been acceptable? Breaking up a winning team that got us to 2nd? If we had and the same thing had happend people would be slating the club for changing a winning team.

I guess what I'm saying is most critics are based on hindsight rather than judging the decisions made at the time. If I have a squad on boxing day that are 2nd, and I was to keep the momentem, do I change things or keep them the same? I'd keep it the same and try to get options in as back up which I think we did. I think it's more a combination of other factors than the transfer window that's caused our poor recent form.

 

 

It's a view but there are other ways of looking at it.

For example, what did not strengthening in January say to the players already here, who probably felt that they needed some 'quality' assistance?

Get some quality loans in, we were a very attractive option to PL club players in Jan who were not getting game time, probably more attractive than we have ever previously been.

This would not be " breaking up a winning team" there would be no guaranteed  starters.

I agree that our slump has more to it than the Jan window failings but it is without doubt a factor.

I think the MA statement regarding not specifically targeting promotion is actually a bigger factor - what message did that send out to the squad of tired players that had not been bolstered by any additions of note? We are done for the season......?

 

[Red-Robbo]

Funny. I thought they'd won the Champions' League, judging by their ecstatic reaction to snatching a draw at Ashton Gate. (Not that hard a proposition, lads)

"We. Are. Stayin'. Up."   Er, no you aren't.

[The Batman]

https://www.readytogo.net/smb/threads/rodwell-missing-poster-in-the-sol-concourse.1426082/

Bravo Sunderland Fans - an absolute parasite.

 

[lenred]

25 minutes ago, The Batman said:

https://www.readytogo.net/smb/threads/rodwell-missing-poster-in-the-sol-concourse.1426082/

Bravo Sunderland Fans - an absolute parasite.

 

How is he a parasite though? That situation is completely the clubs fault not his for not putting in a relegation clause as far as I can see. Would you walk away from £70k a week? Would be a big big ask I know that. If the club was close to folding then that would be a different story.  

Completely understand the fans being massively peeved as the club seems in complete and utter  freefall but it’s the club and their lack of due care they should be getting it in the neck not the player who signed a contract in good faith I’m presuming. 

[The Batman]

Just now, lenred said:

How is he a parasite though? That situation is completely the clubs fault not his for not putting in a relegation clause as far as I can see. Would you walk away from £70k a week? Would be a big big ask I know that. If the club was close to folding then that would be a different story.  

Completely understand the fans being massively peeved as the club seems in complete and utter  freefall but it’s the club and their lack of due care they should be getting it in the neck not the player who signed a contract in good faith I’m presuming. 

I do agree - it is the clubs fault that they offered him that money without a relegation clause.

There are a lot of behind the scenes staff who have lost their jobs because of the cut backs the club has made, yet he will continually pick up his wages whilst refusing to play. There is a lot of hatred for this man up north. Breach on contract???? i'm guessing the club have looked at that option.

[Welcome To The Jungle]

4 minutes ago, lenred said:

How is he a parasite though? That situation is completely the clubs fault not his for not putting in a relegation clause as far as I can see. Would you walk away from £70k a week? Would be a big big ask I know that. If the club was close to folding then that would be a different story.  

Completely understand the fans being massively peeved as the club seems in complete and utter  freefall but it’s the club and their lack of due care they should be getting it in the neck not the player who signed a contract in good faith I’m presuming. 

I agree. What the FA need to do in my opinion is make it compulsory for all players contracts to include clauses stating the players wage in any given division. 

[Davefevs]

On 04/04/2018 at 13:52, RUSSEL85 said:

Agreed. They could well struggle in league 1, but they will be able to attract any player (of that level) they want so it maybe a complete clear out and start again with young, hungry league 1/bottom end champ players. It will be weird seeing a 48,000 seater stadium in that division though. Accrington Stanley away opening game of the season will bring it all home for them!

With parachute money next season and after, their income / turnover will be massive, but they can only spend 60% of it on wages.  They are due about £45m next season, that is £28m more than our revenue last season and 4x Millwall and Sheffield Utd Turnover in their promotion season   If you can’t build a squad capable of coming back up from Lg1 with that money you should be shot!  That’s even whilst paying Jack Rodwell £3.5m of it!

https://inews.co.uk/sport/football/football-indepth/cost-of-relegation-drop-means-football-clubs/

43 minutes ago, The Batman said:

https://www.readytogo.net/smb/threads/rodwell-missing-poster-in-the-sol-concourse.1426082/

Bravo Sunderland Fans - an absolute parasite.

 

Not Rodwell’s fault that SAFC agreed £70k pw, although you’d have to question his attitude and desire to play.

4 minutes ago, Welcome To The Jungle said:

I agree. What the FA need to do in my opinion is make it compulsory for all players contracts to include clauses stating the players wage in any given division. 

It’s a nice idea in theory, but would probably make it difficult for those perennial Prem strugglers to attract players.  

[Welcome To The Jungle]

Just now, Davefevs said:

It’s a nice idea in theory, but would probably make it difficult for those perennial Prem strugglers to attract players.  

Then that begs the question; which is more important, the competitiveness of the league, or protecting clubs like Sunderland and Pompey who freefall and get into huge financial difficulty?

It may even see the lower half of the Premier League less able to lure players from overseas, and instead they must rely on English lower league and youth players. 

It'd also stop clubs in the championship being forced to pay higher wages as the clubs coming down also won't be paying them. 

[lenred]

20 minutes ago, The Batman said:

I do agree - it is the clubs fault that they offered him that money without a relegation clause.

There are a lot of behind the scenes staff who have lost their jobs because of the cut backs the club has made, yet he will continually pick up his wages whilst refusing to play. There is a lot of hatred for this man up north. Breach on contract???? i'm guessing the club have looked at that option.

That’s an extremely key point here.  From what I’ve read he’s keen to play but has been given the cold shoulder. If he is lying about that though and is refusing to play then that changes everything and if I were him I wouldn’t be sleeping easily at all - both morally and in fear of what some psycho fan may do! If true though surely it wouldn’t be too difficult to prove. 

[poland_exile]

On 4/4/2018 at 14:47, BRISTOL86 said:

Should be a stark eye opener for just how quickly it can go to pot when throwing endless cash (and a string of managers) at ‘the dream’ and forsaking any kind of sustainability or planning. 

Wouldn’t surprise me to see them continue to struggle in League One.

might even be worth a punt on another relegation and all. I imagine there'll be a complete exodus. It's a toxic club right now, and I don't see much changing. 

[lenred]

30 minutes ago, Welcome To The Jungle said:

I agree. What the FA need to do in my opinion is make it compulsory for all players contracts to include clauses stating the players wage in any given division. 

Agree, clubs should be clever enough to manage this sort of thing themselves but evidently some of them are not so a safeguard like this wouldn’t hurt. Portsmouth was another fairly recent example where players were continuing to get paid extortionate wages as they fell down the leagues. Sure there are plenty others as well. And it’s ultimately the fans that get stiffed by the administrators incompetence.  

[Davefevs]

7 minutes ago, Welcome To The Jungle said:

Then that begs the question; which is more important, the competitiveness of the league, or protecting clubs like Sunderland and Pompey who freefall and get into huge financial difficulty?

It may even see the lower half of the Premier League less able to lure players from overseas, and instead they must rely on English lower league and youth players. 

It'd also stop clubs in the championship being forced to pay higher wages as the clubs coming down also won't be paying them. 

I think you are spot on....then again the first thing I’d do is get rid of parachute payments.  That would probably lead to the big 6 getting bigger, but the money being handed about in the bottom half of the Prem and top teams in the Champ who’ve had parachute payments is perverse.

If you take Sunderland, they’ll get £55m this season, £45m next, and £20m the season after.  It’s just forced increases across the board in the Championship.  The "spike" that Cotts talked about in the summer of 2015 was in fact the start of an incline....and a "slippery slope" in some ways!

[CotswoldRed]

2 hours ago, The Batman said:

I do agree - it is the clubs fault that they offered him that money without a relegation clause.

There are a lot of behind the scenes staff who have lost their jobs because of the cut backs the club has made, yet he will continually pick up his wages whilst refusing to play. There is a lot of hatred for this man up north. Breach on contract???? i'm guessing the club have looked at that option.

Can't be as simple as refusing to play. If it was they could refuse to pay him. 

[1960maaan]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

I think you are spot on....then again the first thing I’d do is get rid of parachute payments.  That would probably lead to the big 6 getting bigger, but the money being handed about in the bottom half of the Prem and top teams in the Champ who’ve had parachute payments is perverse.

If you take Sunderland, they’ll get £55m this season, £45m next, and £20m the season after.  It’s just forced increases across the board in the Championship.  The "spike" that Cotts talked about in the summer of 2015 was in fact the start of an incline....and a "slippery slope" in some ways!

Agree about stopping parachute payments, but take it further. Every year there are 3 teams in the first year of parachute, usually 1 or 2 in second year etc. That potential £300m should be spread down the leagues , the Prem doesn’t need any more. Would make a big difference to some clubs.

on the other side, relegation clauses would stop some players signing for some teams.

[The Batman]

https://www.90min.com/posts/6030917-strangest-things-netflix-to-air-sunderland-s-relegation-campaign-in-summer-docu-series?utm_source=RSS

This will be worth a watch

[Tinmans Love Child]

On 11/04/2018 at 19:32, 1960maaan said:

Agree about stopping parachute payments, but take it further. Every year there are 3 teams in the first year of parachute, usually 1 or 2 in second year etc. That potential £300m should be spread down the leagues , the Prem doesn’t need any more. Would make a big difference to some clubs.

on the other side, relegation clauses would stop some players signing for some teams.

Agreed.  If all clubs were made by the FA to include relegation clauses in player contracts as standard, it would mitigate the need for any parachute payments to be paid.  

But of course the players wouldn’t want that sort of clause so it won’t happen, god forbid upsetting the players, they might go and play in another league and we can’t have that, we have the mantra of the prem is the ‘best league in the world’ to uphold!

I blame Jimmy Hill

[Lorenzos Only Goal]

On 04/04/2018 at 13:44, sephjnr said:

Three wins since Boxing Day. The only thing separating us from Sunderland was our run until then. On last season's run until then, we would probably be in Sunderland's position right now.

Being grateful for what we have blinds us from both what we expect, and also what we'd like. You may as well extend that to "At least we can't go down, and look at the Man U game. LOOK AT IT. Never mind how it all turned to mush after Christmas, LOOK AT THE THING WE DID. YAY US."

Save that train of thought for five years time, not five weeks. 

Actually if you took the last 10 games, Preston, Derby, Norwich, Aston Villa and Reading would separate us from Sunderland.

On 04/04/2018 at 13:44, sephjnr said:

If Short was on the FA board like Oyston, no questions would be asked at all, move along, nothing to see here.

Nope he's not, bellend he is, on the FA board he's not.

[BRISTOL86]

On 04/04/2018 at 15:25, Londoner said:

They didn't throw endless cash. They just made some very poor decisions.

£70,000 in League One and the manager doesn’t even know where he is. 

There’s bad decisions and there’s this