The French Way?

[Dastardly and Muttley]

I look forward to seeing what Sessegnon and Foden will add to this England squad.

I’d expect a couple of wild-cards to be thrown in to the next squad to help with the creativity. Perhaps Grealish if he gets his Spurs move, or maybe even Bobby if he starts well at Cardiff.

[marcofisher]

The problem is more closely linked to the culture. Not a lot of English football players will be able to speak another language and live a very cushty life in the UK. Other countries will have the advantage of learning English or another foreign language from a young age, and will grow up playing football likely not dreaming of playing for clubs in their respective countries. 

 

It's a huge risk for foreign clubs to take chances on a monolingual Englishman who would likely really struggle to be able to pick up the language quickly and therefore not fit in or adapt well.

 

 

[Cowshed]

8 hours ago, EnderMB said:

I've felt for a long time that England's biggest weakness has been that its players refuse to play outside of England. Regardless of how good our players are, there's is simply no way that we're going to get a full England squad where everyone is playing football at the highest level, because there are only a finite number of spaces in Premier League football, and without severe (and most likely illegal) quotas on foreign players there's no way it'll happen.

When Hodgson took over the England job, I thought this would all change. It was the first time we had a manager with real experience outside of England, and given that we were at a real low point in the talent pool I assumed he'd be pushing the FA towards promoting our talent pool to foreign academies. Even if we only get a dozen or so players playing top-flight football football during his tenure, that's probably one or two players that'll make the England squad. Sadly, that didn't happen.

That's not to say that you cannot be a good team without having diversity in your squad. If you look at Spain, Germany, and Italy, most of their players play in their own country, but at least 4-5 of those players play abroad for teams that frequently play continental football. 

In my opinion, the FA need to force the narrative that our youngsters need to be playing football full-time from as young an age as possible. That might mean in the Football League, and that's fine, but it should mean that players should seriously consider whether they'd be better placed being a big fish in a small pond, or a medium-sized fish in a different pond. Most importantly, footballers need to realise the opportunity that their careers afford them. There are very few jobs where you have the opportunity to earn a ton of money AND live almost wherever you want in the world. A lot of European youngsters realise these opportunities, whether they are footballers or students looking to study abroad, but you rarely see British kids see these opportunities. As a first pass, the FA should be selling youngsters on their books to European FA's, to academies/universities in America, or to clubs that want to take a gamble on an English player that might shoot up in price.

What talent pool and players are you referring to? 

 

[EnderMB]

11 hours ago, Cowshed said:

What talent pool and players are you referring to? 

The talent pool of English players playing top-flight football. If English players refuse to play abroad, and the league is over 50% EU/foreign nationals, then that leaves roughly 200-250 English players to choose from. Now, say half of them probably aren't playing regularly and are just a part of the 25 man squad, and that's down to about 80-100, with half of that being remotely good enough to play for their country. Suddenly, we've got enough for a team, but not a lot of wiggle-room for a thriving international squad.

It's why I've also felt that the Championship should be a valid place for England to pick players. If there's an obvious talent in the Championship, and his only reason for not playing in the Premier League is due to cost, then pick him! For the same reasons I listed above, that player has limited themselves to a single league, and 1 out of 20 teams hasn't opted to pay for him yet.

The Championship would be a stop-gap, though, and won't fix the problem of English players lacking ambition. Members of the FA should be rolling the red carpet out to foreign academies to pick up English talent, whether they are picking people at tryouts, attending U16-U18 games, etc. A telling fact from a few years ago was that the only teams that scout in England are British teams. If the FA were to change that, we'd ideally see the next generation of English talent coming through across the world, whether they are earning big-money transfers across Europe, or being brought up in European academies and making their way back to England once they've established themselves in Spain/Italy/Germany/etc.

[Cowshed]

6 minutes ago, EnderMB said:

The talent pool of English players playing top-flight football. If English players refuse to play abroad, and the league is over 50% EU/foreign nationals, then that leaves roughly 200-250 English players to choose from. Now, say half of them probably aren't playing regularly and are just a part of the 25 man squad, and that's down to about 80-100, with half of that being remotely good enough to play for their country. Suddenly, we've got enough for a team, but not a lot of wiggle-room for a thriving international squad.

It's why I've also felt that the Championship should be a valid place for England to pick players. If there's an obvious talent in the Championship, and his only reason for not playing in the Premier League is due to cost, then pick him! For the same reasons I listed above, that player has limited themselves to a single league, and 1 out of 20 teams hasn't opted to pay for him yet.

The Championship would be a stop-gap, though, and won't fix the problem of English players lacking ambition. Members of the FA should be rolling the red carpet out to foreign academies to pick up English talent, whether they are picking people at tryouts, attending U16-U18 games, etc. A telling fact from a few years ago was that the only teams that scout in England are British teams. If the FA were to change that, we'd ideally see the next generation of English talent coming through across the world, whether they are earning big-money transfers across Europe, or being brought up in European academies and making their way back to England once they've established themselves in Spain/Italy/Germany/etc.

The FA cannot roll out of the red carpet for foreign academies to pick up English talent. Players at academies are kids and contracted to clubs. The EPPP which overlooks  the structure is governed by the EPL and the academies themselves. Parents guidance v the FA? It is barely the FA's role.

Above 16 players are again contracted to clubs playing in structures dictated in form by the clubs whose property the players are. 

The FA are impotent. 

Its not solely true say other nations do not scout in England, they do at exit trials, scout arranged trials etc and players go abroad for instance for scholarships leading to playing opportunity, its more a case of what can foreign nations football offer, and its often not much in comparison. England has a disproportionate number of clubs pro and semi pro and football that has strength in depth … It is also has disproportionate sums of money. 

 

[downendcity]

4 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

The FA cannot roll out of the red carpet for foreign academies to pick up English talent. Players at academies are kids and contracted to clubs. The EPPP which overlooks  the structure is governed by the EPL and the academies themselves. Parents guidance v the FA? It is barely the FA's role.

Above 16 players are again contracted to clubs playing in structures dictated in form by the clubs whose property the players are. 

The FA are impotent. 

Other than when handing out lengthy bans for spitting but without ( apparently) having tangible evidence of said offence!

[EnderMB]

13 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

The FA cannot roll out of the red carpet for foreign academies to pick up English talent. Players at academies are kids and contracted to clubs. The EPPP which overlooks  the structure is governed by the EPL and the academies themselves. Parents guidance v the FA? It is barely the FA's role.

Above 16 players are again contracted to clubs playing in structures dictated in form by the clubs whose property the players are. 

The FA are impotent. 

Its not solely true say other nations do not scout in England, they do at exit trials, scout arranged trials etc and players go abroad for instance for scholarships leading to playing opportunity, its more a case of what can foreign nations football offer, and its often not much in comparison. England has a disproportionate number of clubs pro and semi pro and football that has strength in depth … It is also has disproportionate sums of money. 

 

Well, I thought that much was obvious. If a player is contracted, that's that, but there's no reason why the FA cannot invite other FA's to exit trials, or invite scouts into the UK in order for them to scout for transfers.

Regarding exit trials, very few foreign nations scout our exit trials. The most popular is, surprisingly, American universities looking for people to sign up on athletic scholarships, with the odd MLS academy looking to pick them up for football reasons, and some French teams with a history of picking up English players.

I remember when Dale Jennings went to Bayern Munich. One of the key points about that transfer was that no German or Spanish teams scouted in England, due to the cost of young talent, and their unwillingness to move away. Obviously it didn't work out for Jennings, but we've had a few others go over to Germany since. Most of those visits are said to be stopping visits, where an agent or coach has directly reached out to a scout in the Bundesliga, so it'd be good for England and the Football League to be a regular scouting spot for English talent.

It makes economical sense for foreign teams, too. Premier League teams have home-grown quotas, and will pay large transfer fees for these players. Many of these teams could sign a promising player from an exit trial, move them to France/Germany/Italy/Spain, and if they get back £1m from a Championship team after a four year contract they've broke even. 

[Cowshed]

2 minutes ago, EnderMB said:

Well, I thought that much was obvious. If a player is contracted, that's that, but there's no reason why the FA cannot invite other FA's to exit trials, or invite scouts into the UK in order for them to scout for transfers.

Regarding exit trials, very few foreign nations scout our exit trials. The most popular is, surprisingly, American universities looking for people to sign up on athletic scholarships, with the odd MLS academy looking to pick them up for football reasons, and some French teams with a history of picking up English players.

I remember when Dale Jennings went to Bayern Munich. One of the key points about that transfer was that no German or Spanish teams scouted in England, due to the cost of young talent, and their unwillingness to move away. Obviously it didn't work out for Jennings, but we've had a few others go over to Germany since. Most of those visits are said to be stopping visits, where an agent or coach has directly reached out to a scout in the Bundesliga, so it'd be good for England and the Football League to be a regular scouting spot for English talent.

It makes economical sense for foreign teams, too. Premier League teams have home-grown quotas, and will pay large transfer fees for these players. Many of these teams could sign a promising player from an exit trial, move them to France/Germany/Italy/Spain, and if they get back £1m from a Championship team after a four year contract they've broke even. 

It was not obvious hence I asked , your post with respect read like it was the FA having control of players. 

I have an Australian acquaintance who turned that opportunity down for football reasons. It would create on his CV a space where he  would play no adult football or he ended up playing indoor football. His view was if a USL/MLS team did not want him he would have wasted years. He instead came to England as his view was it offered more opportunity and took part in trails and was offered trials at semi pro clubs and abroad before deciding to move back to Australia. 

There is not masses of opportunity across Europe to play. England is unique in its depth and wealth. Hence players come here. Opportunity is sparser in other nations and Countries like Spain are more protectionist over the development of their talent.  

 

[EnderMB]

2 hours ago, Cowshed said:

It was not obvious hence I asked , your post with respect read like it was the FA having control of players. 

I have an Australian acquaintance who turned that opportunity down for football reasons. It would create on his CV a space where he  would play no adult football or he ended up playing indoor football. His view was if a USL/MLS team did not want him he would have wasted years. He instead came to England as his view was it offered more opportunity and took part in trails and was offered trials at semi pro clubs and abroad before deciding to move back to Australia. 

There is not masses of opportunity across Europe to play. England is unique in its depth and wealth. Hence players come here. Opportunity is sparser in other nations and Countries like Spain are more protectionist over the development of their talent.  

I think that nowadays the former is more likely. My girlfriend is a teacher, one of her kids was lucky enough to get into an exit trial after leaving a West Brom satellite academy. He was scouted by a solid first division school over there, and he's shifted his studies towards the American SAT instead of A Levels in order to get the minimum requirements for an athletic scholarship. From what she said to me, he'll be doing his exams out of school, but that a decent number of kids from football backgrounds end up going this route, given how many take the exams each year. I guess that they'll be involved in the athletics programmes over there, but that probably means they can also play football (soccer) at college level if they wish as well.

There's a lot of opportunity in England, but I think that's being reflected in how frequently teams are now scouting across Europe for talent. We're guilty of that in recent years, looking for bargains across the pond instead of paying money for British talent. The same can be true, though, where a player could opt to play in countless European countries over playing League 1/2 (or heaven forbid, Scottish) football. In my view, it'd be a better footballing experience to go abroad, and it'd be a better life experience.

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 hours ago, Cowshed said:

It was not obvious hence I asked , your post with respect read like it was the FA having control of players. 

I have an Australian acquaintance who turned that opportunity down for football reasons. It would create on his CV a space where he  would play no adult football or he ended up playing indoor football. His view was if a USL/MLS team did not want him he would have wasted years. He instead came to England as his view was it offered more opportunity and took part in trails and was offered trials at semi pro clubs and abroad before deciding to move back to Australia. 

There is not masses of opportunity across Europe to play. England is unique in its depth and wealth. Hence players come here. Opportunity is sparser in other nations and Countries like Spain are more protectionist over the development of their talent.  

 

 

17 minutes ago, EnderMB said:

I think that nowadays the former is more likely. My girlfriend is a teacher, one of her kids was lucky enough to get into an exit trial after leaving a West Brom satellite academy. He was scouted by a solid first division school over there, and he's shifted his studies towards the American SAT instead of A Levels in order to get the minimum requirements for an athletic scholarship. From what she said to me, he'll be doing his exams out of school, but that a decent number of kids from football backgrounds end up going this route, given how many take the exams each year. I guess that they'll be involved in the athletics programmes over there, but that probably means they can also play football (soccer) at college level if they wish as well.

There's a lot of opportunity in England, but I think that's being reflected in how frequently teams are now scouting across Europe for talent. We're guilty of that in recent years, looking for bargains across the pond instead of paying money for British talent. The same can be true, though, where a player could opt to play in countless European countries over playing League 1/2 (or heaven forbid, Scottish) football. In my view, it'd be a better footballing experience to go abroad, and it'd be a better life experience.

Case in point. Wilshere- linked with AC Milan or Roma 2 years ago, even on a season loan.

Could have learnt a new culture of football, a different tactical way to view and play the game (though the differences are a lot, lot less than 10, let alone 20 years ago). In case of Roma they quite liked after eventually hitting upon a back 3. As a midfielder in a 3-4-1-2 or a 3-5-2 and vs tactically different sides- could have been a useful move.

He went to Bournemouth and latterly went to West Ham this summer on a free, instead of looking further afield. It's the 'safe' option IMO, or more accurately a certain comfort zone.

[Cowshed]

On ‎17‎/‎07‎/‎2018 at 14:10, EnderMB said:

I think that nowadays the former is more likely. My girlfriend is a teacher, one of her kids was lucky enough to get into an exit trial after leaving a West Brom satellite academy. He was scouted by a solid first division school over there, and he's shifted his studies towards the American SAT instead of A Levels in order to get the minimum requirements for an athletic scholarship. From what she said to me, he'll be doing his exams out of school, but that a decent number of kids from football backgrounds end up going this route, given how many take the exams each year. I guess that they'll be involved in the athletics programmes over there, but that probably means they can also play football (soccer) at college level if they wish as well.

 

I hope it goes more than well for the lad.

[CyderInACan]

On 15/07/2018 at 21:31, downendcity said:

I suggested we try the French way.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mrs Downend said she could never manage it with her back!  
 

You’d better not suggest the Greek Way then!

[CyderInACan]

On 16/07/2018 at 13:10, Dastardly and Muttley said:

. Perhaps Grealish if he gets his Spurs move, or maybe even Bobby if he starts well at Cardiff.

Bobby won’t be able to be picked for England if he’s playing in Wales

[cidered abroad]

On 16/07/2018 at 21:27, marcofisher said:

The problem is more closely linked to the culture. Not a lot of English football players will be able to speak another language and live a very cushty life in the UK. Other countries will have the advantage of learning English or another foreign language from a young age, and will grow up playing football likely not dreaming of playing for clubs in their respective countries. 

 

It's a huge risk for foreign clubs to take chances on a monolingual Englishman who would likely really struggle to be able to pick up the language quickly and therefore not fit in or adapt well.

 

 

The only British players going back to the 1950's who had successful careers abroad were those who were able to learn and become almost fluent in the language of the country they were playing in. 

John Charles and Gerry Hitchens led the way and had lengthy careers, whereas Jimmy Greaves and Denis Law lasted only a few months. 

Later, Gary Lineker and Joe Jordan did very well while Ian Rush and Mark Hughes did not. 

The common denominator was learning the language and all of those who lasted became such fans favourites in a very unique way. So much that at the end of his life,  a very seriously and terminally ill John Charles was flown home to Leeds from Turin aboard a plane chartered and paid for by Juventus. That sort of respect is only gained by one who fully integrated into the club, City and country. 

As someone who has learnt four languages, worked for a German firm in UK and lived in retirement in Portugal, I know how much richer I was for those times.  I consider that it would be a good experience for some of our suitable Academy boys to have loan periods in Europe. 

[Miah Dennehy]

On ‎15‎/‎07‎/‎2018 at 21:13, BS4 on Tour... said:

Steve Bull played for England when he was a third division player....the door should never be shut to guys who are bang in form no matter what level.....and Bull was a machine for Wolves - scored over 50 goals in the 1987/88 season and also notched 18 hatricks for Wolves....including a few against us....I marvelled at his finishing when he splaffed three past us in the Sherpa Van trophy in 1989....then in 1990 Glenn Humphries ‘marked’ him like he’d never heard of him and Bull grabbed three in a 4-0 Wolves win....awesome player, loved his no nonense approach....

I have never understood the mantra that players have to play in the top division to get picked for internationals. In recent times this got even more ridiculous when it was often claimed that players needed to be in the top teams within that top division to be considered up to standard.

[BS4 on Tour...]

1 minute ago, Miah Dennehy said:

I have never understood the mantra that players have to play in the top division to get picked for internationals. In recent times this got even more ridiculous when it was often claimed that players needed to be in the top teams within that top division to be considered up to standard.

I agree....if you’re in form, you’re in.....what’s wrong with that?! Steve Bull ruffled many a feather as a lower league player charging around for England....

[marcofisher]

12 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

The only British players going back to the 1950's who had successful careers abroad were those who were able to learn and become almost fluent in the language of the country they were playing in. 

John Charles and Gerry Hitchens led the way and had lengthy careers, whereas Jimmy Greaves and Denis Law lasted only a few months. 

Later, Gary Lineker and Joe Jordan did very well while Ian Rush and Mark Hughes did not. 

The common denominator was learning the language and all of those who lasted became such fans favourites in a very unique way. So much that at the end of his life,  a very seriously and terminally ill John Charles was flown home to Leeds from Turin aboard a plane chartered and paid for by Juventus. That sort of respect is only gained by one who fully integrated into the club, City and country. 

As someone who has learnt four languages, worked for a German firm in UK and lived in retirement in Portugal, I know how much richer I was for those times.  I consider that it would be a good experience for some of our suitable Academy boys to have loan periods in Europe. 

On one hand I can agree with you there, but on the other hand it's not quite so simple sending our Academy boys out to for example, Germany, where they will hold a very limited education (GCSE Languages not even compulsory). Whereas on the flip side, the German education of English is so advanced that most will have a very high level of English by the time they are in respective academies, and can easily move to England. Obviously there are exceptions but even in those cases the level of English is likely to be fivefold of the language levels of for example, our Academy lads. 

 

People ask why players can't go abroad to ply their trade. The answer is a lot more complicated that most would think, and links to an ignorance when it comes to language education in England (can't comment for the UK) which is shockingly not even compulsory in Primary Schools. Not to mention the fact English players cost a premium and are therefore much less desirable. 

 

Mind you the language education amongst the French is pretty bogs too, even if it is much easier for them to learn another romance language. 

[frenchred]

36 minutes ago, marcofisher said:

On one hand I can agree with you there, but on the other hand it's not quite so simple sending our Academy boys out to for example, Germany, where they will hold a very limited education (GCSE Languages not even compulsory). Whereas on the flip side, the German education of English is so advanced that most will have a very high level of English by the time they are in respective academies, and can easily move to England. Obviously there are exceptions but even in those cases the level of English is likely to be fivefold of the language levels of for example, our Academy lads. 

 

People ask why players can't go abroad to ply their trade. The answer is a lot more complicated that most would think, and links to an ignorance when it comes to language education in England (can't comment for the UK) which is shockingly not even compulsory in Primary Schools. Not to mention the fact English players cost a premium and are therefore much less desirable. 

 

Mind you the language education amongst the French is pretty bogs too, even if it is much easier for them to learn another romance language. 

Sorry mate I just cannot agree with you there.

heir teaching of language starts at a very young age and perhaps more importantly its not an options choice either!

[marcofisher]

19 minutes ago, frenchred said:

Sorry mate I just cannot agree with you there.

heir teaching of language starts at a very young age and perhaps more importantly its not an options choice either!

Not from the many young French adults I know, who are pretty damn critical about the standard of English teaching currently in France. Perhaps I was generalising by extending it to language learning in general! 

[PHILINFRANCE]

1 hour ago, marcofisher said:

Mind you the language education amongst the French is pretty bogs too, even if it is much easier for them to learn another romance language. 

I can assure you that, in general, the teaching of English in French schools, often in 'Primary' schools (but more and more so recently of Spanish) is of a far higher level than that of foreign languages within the English education system.

I assume the highlighted section refers to Roman languages (Italian, Spanish, French etc.), although any young English players contemplating playing abroad should try and get himself a girlfriend pretty smartish and be assured that, in order to learn a foreign language, there is no substitute for what is known as a 'midnight dictionary'.

[milo1111]

On 15/07/2018 at 21:32, 1960maaan said:

The foundations are there, the youth/junior teams have done well.....

2017 European Under-17 Championship ...... Result: Runner-up
2017 Toulon Tournament ............................... Result: Champions
2017 European Under-21 Championship .......Result: Semi-finalists
2017 Under-20 World Cup ...............................Result: Champions
2017 European Under-19 Championship .......Result: Champions
2017 Under-17 World Cup ...............................Result: Champions

The next step is to get all those youngster playing first team football regularly, the problem comes when top sides hoover up the young players and they vegetate in their reserve set ups with no path to the first team. I'm hoping Man City are going to buck that trend, Foden (MoM in U17 WC win) played 10 games last year . It would be great to see a few more come through. 
We have the base of a good-is side, now we need some more to step up and force their way in.

They need to limit the amount of under 21 players a club can have on their books and limit each club to 5 outgoing loans a season or similar. It is a total farce how the likes of Chelsea do what they do. Then these youngsters will filter down and play more games at smaller clubs.

[Miah Dennehy]

On ‎15‎/‎07‎/‎2018 at 21:13, BS4 on Tour... said:

Steve Bull played for England when he was a third division player....the door should never be shut to guys who are bang in form no matter what level.....and Bull was a machine for Wolves - scored over 50 goals in the 1987/88 season and also notched 18 hatricks for Wolves....including a few against us....I marvelled at his finishing when he splaffed three past us in the Sherpa Van trophy in 1989....then in 1990 Glenn Humphries ‘marked’ him like he’d never heard of him and Bull grabbed three in a 4-0 Wolves win....awesome player, loved his no nonense approach....

Oddly enough Bully always struggled against Geoff Twentyman!  I think he did eventually get one playing against him, but it was a fair few games before he did. When Bull did play for England it was back in the days when I used to watch every home game at Wembley, Wolves used to bring thousands down to watch him.

[bengalcub]

Should be a criteria of English eligible players in any starting lineup in all of our divisions , as great as some foreign players are there are also to many journeymen taking spaces away from our homegrown talents . England will win nothing unless something changes at club level , 

[Mr Popodopolous]

31 minutes ago, bengalcub said:

Should be a criteria of English eligible players in any starting lineup in all of our divisions , as great as some foreign players are there are also to many journeymen taking spaces away from our homegrown talents . England will win nothing unless something changes at club level , 

The other side of that coin though, is that for years foreign markets have often offered better value than our own one.

Not always of course- there can be some great bargains in the lower leagues, of course there can working their way up (Vardy had to go down to come back up a good example). However for whatever reason  our market was quite inflated for some time- hence why clubs can be reticent. Danny Ward £12m- not a big fee in today's PL of course, but Danny Ward for £12m is an example of why clubs may tend to look to foreign players.

Youth academy? Quite agree if that, the big clubs but also a lot of the middling PL sides could do a lot better with regards bringing through young talent.

[Ashtonboy]

38 minutes ago, bengalcub said:

Should be a criteria of English eligible players in any starting lineup in all of our divisions , as great as some foreign players are there are also to many journeymen taking spaces away from our homegrown talents . England will win nothing unless something changes at club level , 

That will go down well in Cardiff and Swansea!

[downendcity]

18 hours ago, cidered abroad said:

The only British players going back to the 1950's who had successful careers abroad were those who were able to learn and become almost fluent in the language of the country they were playing in. 

John Charles and Gerry Hitchens led the way and had lengthy careers, whereas Jimmy Greaves and Denis Law lasted only a few months. 

Later, Gary Lineker and Joe Jordan did very well while Ian Rush and Mark Hughes did not. 

The common denominator was learning the language and all of those who lasted became such fans favourites in a very unique way. So much that at the end of his life,  a very seriously and terminally ill John Charles was flown home to Leeds from Turin aboard a plane chartered and paid for by Juventus. That sort of respect is only gained by one who fully integrated into the club, City and country. 

As someone who has learnt four languages, worked for a German firm in UK and lived in retirement in Portugal, I know how much richer I was for those times.  I consider that it would be a good experience for some of our suitable Academy boys to have loan periods in Europe. 

Ian Rush was once asked about his time with Juventus.

In response  Rush said he couldn't settle because it was like living in a foreign country!

 

[bengalcub]

Cardiff and Swansea should be in the welsh leagues .