Johnson - No new striker incoming (Merged)

[Olé]

2 hours ago, Moor2Sea said:

LJs developed a team of ‘mini me’s’. Little height, power or physical presence.

Last season I had hypothesised on here (having seen it many times with new managers in business) that he was stripping the squad of any experience, age or personality, out of fear of being second guessed. Junior managers often worry (unnecessarily) that all but the young and weak will see right through them. 

I can't honestly believe he's actually also removing height for similar reasons (to make himself feel more authoritative) but looking at the complexion of the new squad, you do wonder! I do think however that beneath the surface he does suffer this sort of insecurity, and that will always influence his squad make-up.

Leadership is the primary casualty - which he finally admitted last season. So what did he do about it? I know leadership takes many forms, but what leaders did we bring in? No nasty pieces of work, and I've not seen much vocal authority in the new guys either. We might have expected him to bring in a new captain.

I suspect the truth is that when it came down to it, his insecurities outweighed actually addressing the stated problem. He is still hoping to get away with happy, inoffensive, busy little bees that he can manage. Given the job security he has, I wish he'd find the self-confidence and decisiveness to get over these fears. 

[BRISTOL86]

A lot of knee jerk reaction (though plenty of understandable concerns) to a pretty meaningless game (pretty obvious we didn’t want another prolonged cup run, though I won’t go as far as to say we didn’t want to win last night per se - but you only have to look at the number of changes to see how seriously we were taking it)

Undefeated in the league so whilst concerns about defensive frailty are valid, two sides (one very good one) have tried to beat us and failed. Had we had some better finishing we could easily be on 4-6 points as we squandered good chances against Forest and Bolton.   

I’d like to see another striker in as third choice to Diedhiou and Weimann, though the argument is that this thwarts the development of Eisa, so unless we’re going to loan him out, is that the best idea? Eisa either needs to be on loan or involved in games off the bench at this level. Having him here but 4th or 5th choice is pointless so it’s a bit of a conundrum.

Right back - Hunt looks more than adequate and an obvious upgrade on the useless Pisano.

Some rightful concern but it’s way too early for this sort of mass panic. 

I can see the inevitable meltdown when Boro beat us on Saturday, despite them being about 5x our size budget wise. 

[JoeAman08]

7 minutes ago, Sturny said:

Dunno why people are rubbishing facts :laugh:, Weimann has scored 17 in his entire championship time whilst Christ Martin has scored 71

 

Probably because stats do not tell the whole story. Now I can’t argue CM results as a striker though he has not been prolific for at least a couple seasons. 

For Weimann, however, we know he was used wide when he preferred a central position. Still a good enough player that he was a regular in good Derby sides for years. Not only that but watching him play centrally for us and seeing his pace, movement and finishing ability you can come to a reasonable conclusion that he will score quite a few this season

[BobBobSuperBob]

4 minutes ago, JoeAman08 said:

Hard to argue. I’d use the younger players more if it were up to me. Why play Wright when he doesn’t get into our side as a midtable champ team when Vyner is a CB on loan in the same league? Why play Taylor who has never cut it above L1 when McCoulskey is hungry to make an impact and shows coming off the bench does not bother him? Of course you keep game changers like Pato and Watkins around but why pay 8-10k a week for fringe players like Taylor, Wright and Hegeler when you can play young players who want to make it a fraction of the price

Sounds brutal Joe (and a I agree with your general ethos)

Although I am no great fan of BW or Taylor and neither cut it for me tbh..........

 

Because atm neither MClousky or Vyner look ready / good enough (Vyner may prove otherwise this season) 

We have some potential propping up a lot of ‘meh’ with little star quality IMHO

 

[BRISTOL86]

8 minutes ago, Sturny said:

Dunno why people are rubbishing facts :laugh:, Weimann has scored 17 in his entire championship time whilst Christ Martin has scored 71

 

Would you compare the goal return of O’Dowda vs Abraham? Weimann for most of his career hasn’t been played in what he sees as his natural position, so a bit daft comparing the output of a 10/winger vs that of a striker. 

Weimann currently on course for 46 in the league  

[Monkeh]

1 minute ago, Olé said:

Last season I had hypothesised on here (having seen it many times with new managers in business) that he was stripping the squad of any experience, age or personality, out of fear of being second guessed. Junior managers often worry (unnecessarily) that all but the young and weak will see right through them. 

I can't honestly believe he's actually also removing height for similar reasons (to make himself feel more authoritative) but looking at the complexion of the new squad, you do wonder! I do think however that beneath the surface he does suffer this sort of insecurity, and that will always influence his squad make-up.

Leadership is the primary casualty - which he finally admitted last season. So what did he do about it? I know leadership takes many forms, but what leaders did we bring in? No nasty pieces of work, and I've not seen much vocal authority in the new guys either. We might have expected him to bring in a new captain.

I suspect the truth is that when it came down to it, his insecurities outweighed actually addressing the stated problem. He is still hoping to get away with happy, inoffensive, busy little bees that he can manage. Given the job security he has, I wish he'd find the self-confidence and decisiveness to get over these fears. 

removing height? 

Watkins 6ft1

Webster 6ft3

Hakeem 6ft2

Weinman 6ft

Eisa 6ft

Maenpaa 6ft 3

[BobBobSuperBob]

4 minutes ago, Olé said:

Last season I had hypothesised on here (having seen it many times with new managers in business) that he was stripping the squad of any experience, age or personality, out of fear of being second guessed. Junior managers often worry (unnecessarily) that all but the young and weak will see right through them. 

I can't honestly believe he's actually also removing height for similar reasons (to make himself feel more authoritative) but looking at the complexion of the new squad, you do wonder! I do think however that beneath the surface he does suffer this sort of insecurity, and that will always influence his squad make-up.

Leadership is the primary casualty - which he finally admitted last season. So what did he do about it? I know leadership takes many forms, but what leaders did we bring in? No nasty pieces of work, and I've not seen much vocal authority in the new guys either. We might have expected him to bring in a new captain.

I suspect the truth is that when it came down to it, his insecurities outweighed actually addressing the stated problem. He is still hoping to get away with happy, inoffensive, busy little bees that he can manage. Given the job security he has, I wish he'd find the self-confidence and decisiveness to get over these fears. 

Interesting post that mate

[Monkeh]

2 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

removing height? 

Watkins 6ft1

Webster 6ft3

Hakeem 6ft2

Weinman 6ft

Eisa 6ft

Maenpaa 6ft 3

last season

Fammy 6ft 2

pisano 6ft 1 

Baker 6ft 2

Steel 6ft

 

oh and Lee is 5ft 6, almost all of his signings have been bigger then him,

 

[JoeAman08]

3 minutes ago, Olé said:

Last season I had hypothesised on here (having seen it many times with new managers in business) that he was stripping the squad of any experience, age or personality, out of fear of being second guessed. Junior managers often worry (unnecessarily) that all but the young and weak will see right through them. 

I can't honestly believe he's actually also removing height for similar reasons (to make himself feel more authoritative) but looking at the complexion of the new squad, you do wonder! I do think however that beneath the surface he does suffer this sort of insecurity, and that will always influence his squad make-up.

Leadership is the primary casualty - which he finally admitted last season. So what did he do about it? I know leadership takes many forms, but what leaders did we bring in? No nasty pieces of work, and I've not seen much vocal authority in the new guys either. We might have expected him to bring in a new captain.

I suspect the truth is that when it came down to it, his insecurities outweighed actually addressing the stated problem. He is still hoping to get away with happy, inoffensive, busy little bees that he can manage. Given the job security he has, I wish he'd find the self-confidence and decisiveness to get over these fears. 

Think we actually bought quite a bit of height this summer. Watkins, Adelakun and Webster all over 6 feet tall. Weimann is not tiny(5’10?). Hunt also not awfully short. DaSilva is tiny though. Thought we were making an effort to get bigger to be fair. 

Now for your first paragraph, we do seem to have sold quite a few “characters.” I am sure everyone at the club now is a decent person but they all feel like good honest workers who won’t really question anything. As far as is that good or bad remains to be seen i guess

[BRISTOL86]

6 minutes ago, Olé said:

Last season I had hypothesised on here (having seen it many times with new managers in business) that he was stripping the squad of any experience, age or personality, out of fear of being second guessed. Junior managers often worry (unnecessarily) that all but the young and weak will see right through them. 

I can't honestly believe he's actually also removing height for similar reasons (to make himself feel more authoritative) but looking at the complexion of the new squad, you do wonder! I do think however that beneath the surface he does suffer this sort of insecurity, and that will always influence his squad make-up.

Leadership is the primary casualty - which he finally admitted last season. So what did he do about it? I know leadership takes many forms, but what leaders did we bring in? No nasty pieces of work, and I've not seen much vocal authority in the new guys either. We might have expected him to bring in a new captain.

I suspect the truth is that when it came down to it, his insecurities outweighed actually addressing the stated problem. He is still hoping to get away with happy, inoffensive, busy little bees that he can manage. Given the job security he has, I wish he'd find the self-confidence and decisiveness to get over these fears. 

Pack? Wright? Hunt? Weimann? Smith?

He’s actively recruited experience, even in this window, so not sure that washes.

And are you honestly suggesting that Djuric and Flint have been ‘moved on’ because they’re tall and Johnson isn’t?

That sounds pretty far fetched even for OTIB. 

[JoeAman08]

5 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Sounds brutal Joe (and a I agree with your general ethos)

Although I am no great fan of BW or Taylor and neither cut it for me tbh..........

 

Because atm neither MClousky or Vyner look ready / good enough (Vyner may prove otherwise this season) 

We have some potential propping up a lot of ‘meh’ with little star quality IMHO

 

I get there are more risks to that approach but maybe it is from my sense of wanting to justify results. If Webster in injured and Wright comes in and we struggle we would all be a bit livid. If Vyner never went on loan and replaced Webster for an injury and we struggled you could say it is because he is young and learning. Neither is great but one is cheaper and easier to explain. Why I don’t run a football club though! 

[Phileas Fogg]

2 minutes ago, JoeAman08 said:

Now for your first paragraph, we do seem to have sold quite a few “characters.” I am sure everyone at the club now is a decent person but they all feel like good honest workers who won’t really question anything. As far as is that good or bad remains to be seen i guess

Not sure how people can read things like this into our squad - we only get to see them on social media and whatever they say to interviews. Their output is all so controlled I think it's a bit of a stretch to read into personalities that much based on that.

[Sturny]

2 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Not sure how people can read things like this into our squad - we only get to see them on social media and whatever they say to interviews. Their output is all so controlled I think it's a bit of a stretch to read into personalities that much based on that.

I see characters as a LB that can score screamers, a defender that gets 7-8 goals a season and a local lad turning into a 20 goal machine out of nowhere. The replacements are less exciting than that 

[Phileas Fogg]

1 minute ago, Sturny said:

I see characters as a LB that can score screamers, a defender that gets 7-8 goals a season and a local lad turning into a 20 goal machine out of nowhere. The replacements are less exciting than that 

That's not what people mean by 'characters'.

[BobBobSuperBob]

5 minutes ago, Sturny said:

I see characters as a LB that can score screamers, a defender that gets 7-8 goals a season and a local lad turning into a 20 goal machine out of nowhere. The replacements are less exciting than that 

 

3 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

That's not what people mean by 'characters'.

‘Influences’

?

[Sturny]

2 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

That's not what people mean by 'characters'.

So what do you call a character? Someone who posts on SM a lot? Did you view flint as a character? 

[Sturny]

3 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

 

‘Influences’

?

Probably the better word 

[Phileas Fogg]

5 minutes ago, Sturny said:

So what do you call a character? Someone who posts on SM a lot? Did you view flint as a character? 

It's pretty obvious what a character means in this context - it's about their personality.

'A character' can describe many types of people.. in this context it could be someone who makes an impression on the squad through their leadership or motivational qualities or even someone who can raise the mood when things aren't going well. There's loads of ways it can be shown. Basically someone who stands out and who's personality has an impact on the squad as a whole. It's not always a positive thing.

Some examples of players you can describe as a character - Keane, Viera, Beckham, Ibrahimovic, Ronaldo, Gascoigne, Neville, Balotelli

[BRISTOL86]

To me, ‘character’ is digging deep in the face of adversity or rallying the troops when our backs are against the wall. Someone who’d run through a brick wall for his team mates, that sort of thing.

Flint I would definitely put in that bracket.

[Nogbad the Bad]

1 hour ago, Monkeh said:

I'm not worried about replacing a striker we'll score goals,

I'm worried about the weak midfield and the soft goals we are conceding, these are the same goals that we've conceded since Johnson has been in charge,

His failure to strengthen the obvious weak part of the team (Midfield) will cost us this year, he's about to get another club record (longest spell on the road without a win)

The bloke simply can't continue he needs to go

So if you were SL you'd sack LJ today then Monkeh? 

[lenred]

13 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

Pack? Wright? Hunt? Weimann? Smith?

He’s actively recruited experience, even in this window, so not sure that washes.

And are you honestly suggesting that Djuric and Flint have been ‘moved on’ because they’re tall and Johnson isn’t?

That sounds pretty far fetched even for OTIB. 

Not exactly bursting with personality are they?  All seem decent characters but pretty placid. Not going to rock the boat in anyway though......

[BRISTOL86]

1 minute ago, Phileas Fogg said:

It's pretty obvious what a character means in this context - it's about their personality.

'A character' can be shown in many different way.. it can be someone who makes an impression on the squad through their leadership or motivational qualities or even someone who can raise the mood when things aren't going well. There's loads of ways it can be shown. Basically someone who stands out and who's personality has an impact on the squad as a whole. It's not always a positive thing.

Some examples of players you can describe as a character - Keane, Viera, Beckham, Ibrahimovic, Ronaldo, Gascoigne, Neville, Balotelli

An important point. Tomlin was a ‘character’. It’s just that his character was Captain ***-Chops. 

[Phileas Fogg]

1 minute ago, BRISTOL86 said:

An important point. Tomlin was a ‘character’. It’s just that his character was Captain ***-Chops. 

Yes good example, not always a positive thing!

[BRISTOL86]

2 minutes ago, lenred said:

Not exactly bursting with personality are they?  All seem decent characters but pretty placid. Not going to rock the boat in anyway though......

I was referring to the bit about stripping experience from the squad. I’ve seen no evidence of that. We only lost 3 players to bigger clubs and I’m fairly sure Johnson wouldn’t have particularly wanted to lose any of them if he had a magic wand and a bottomless wage budget. 

And since when did rocking the boat become a desirable trait in an employee?! There’s a difference between not being vocal/aggressive and not expressing your opinion. I’m sure all of those players are more than capable of making their feelings known when required. 

[shamussy]

Why all the panic? We have diedhiou to cone back an play quick incisive football. We have signed a lot of young players who along with some of our other youngsters can be very exciting.

Yes... we could be on 2 points at the end of August, but we could also be on 11... I expect we will probably be somewhere between.

Things take time and players will grow... I am excited to see the current crop develop and am really proud of how tghe club is moving forward.

Reading the other teams forum after we play them shows they respect the speed and way we play the game. It's fast, pacey football. Some of what I have seen in the last 12 months has been amazing. We just need patience

[Olé]

9 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

removing height? 

5 minutes ago, JoeAman08 said:

Think we actually bought quite a bit of height this summer. Watkins, Adelakun and Webster all over 6 feet tall.

4 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

And are you honestly suggesting that Djuric and Flint have been ‘moved on’ because they’re tall and Johnson isn’t?

That sounds pretty far fetched even for OTIB. 

To be fair to myself  I said "I can't honestly believe he's actually also removing height" in response to @Moor2Sea's post making that point, but I referenced it to make the wider point that LJ has always shifted certain attributes out of the squad, i.e. leadership and experience.

And while I agree that we have at least this time round recruited English league experience and in Hunt and Wiemann's case Championship experience too,  it appears more impressive than it is only by how little we've done before, it hardly resets the balance on either attribute.

The height point probably won't go away while we don't appear to utilise it in defence to attack first balls, and the vast majority of our options in central midfield are on the short side. It's more a question of who uses their height. No idea if it's meaningful to Adekalun or Watkins.

[Son of Fred]

23 minutes ago, Olé said:

Last season I had hypothesised on here (having seen it many times with new managers in business) that he was stripping the squad of any experience, age or personality, out of fear of being second guessed. Junior managers often worry (unnecessarily) that all but the young and weak will see right through them. 

I can't honestly believe he's actually also removing height for similar reasons (to make himself feel more authoritative) but looking at the complexion of the new squad, you do wonder! I do think however that beneath the surface he does suffer this sort of insecurity, and that will always influence his squad make-up.

Leadership is the primary casualty - which he finally admitted last season. So what did he do about it? I know leadership takes many forms, but what leaders did we bring in? No nasty pieces of work, and I've not seen much vocal authority in the new guys either. We might have expected him to bring in a new captain.

I suspect the truth is that when it came down to it, his insecurities outweighed actually addressing the stated problem. He is still hoping to get away with happy, inoffensive, busy little bees that he can manage. Given the job security he has, I wish he'd find the self-confidence and decisiveness to get over these fears. 

Not too sure about the 'short' stuff,although it has crossed the mind!

As regards confidence I think your so close to the truth....any 'team',given time,will ultimately be a reflection of its leader & display similar traits..

I hope that the confidence/faith displayed by SL will sink in and allow Lee to really settle & flower........right now my gut says it will all be in vain.

[Rich_s]

33 minutes ago, Frenchay Red said:

Taylor offered nothing, and was pretty ineffective throughout his time in the game.

I hate to be cynical but I will be anyway. I think Taylor was a wild punt and his signing was probably more to do with taking the heat and LJ getting back onside with the fans were turning against LJ. Taylor's biggest issue is his first touch which is poor. The ball always seems to ping back off him with more velocity than when it arrived. In any position on the pitch that is a bad thing.

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

7 minutes ago, lenred said:

Not exactly bursting with personality are they?  All seem decent characters but pretty placid. Not going to rock the boat in anyway though......

But building a team, any team, in any walk of life, is all about balance.  You need leaders, you need thinkers, you need doers, you need one or two mavericks, it's all about getting the mix right.  What you don't need is people who don't want to be there and/or bad attitudes.

My worry is where the leaders are.  Who were our leaders last year?  Bailey Wright, Flint, Korey?  Who is doing the shouting and geeing up on the field at the moment?  I don't think for a moment that any of the departures are to do with Lee securing his position - for their own perfectly valid reasons Flint, Reid, Bryan and Djuric all wanted to go - but the question is whether we have the right mix.  From what I've seen Weimann and Watkins don't appear to be leaders, Eisa is young and learning, as is Adelukan to a degree, the goalkeeper doesn't strike me as having been particular assertive so far (though maybe that will come as he gets to know people better), which leaves Webster and Hunt.  Are they the characters we need to make the whole thing work?

I'd have a fully fit Bailey Wright back in this team like a shot.

[lenred]

21 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

I was referring to the bit about stripping experience from the squad. I’ve seen no evidence of that. We only lost 3 players to bigger clubs and I’m fairly sure Johnson wouldn’t have particularly wanted to lose any of them if he had a magic wand and a bottomless wage budget. 

And since when did rocking the boat become a desirable trait in an employee?! There’s a difference between not being vocal/aggressive and not expressing your opinion. I’m sure all of those players are more than capable of making their feelings known when required. 

Football is an aggressive game. It needs people who will say their piece as opposed to only wallflowers, happy to go with the status quo. Rocking the boat or if you prefer challenging hierarchy and questioning methods is a good thing and should be actively encouraged if it brings about a positive outcome. A good manager should encourage challenge. I’m guessing LJ doesn’t judging by who he has got rid of and who he has brought in. But we shall see......