Making a Murderer Part 2 - Oct 19th

[Red-Robbo]

3 minutes ago, tommytank1985 said:

You say evidence but it’s all clearly faked in my opinion. You honestly think they cleaned the trailer and garage without a trace of blood yet left a few smudges all round her car? Single key? Who has one key? ‘Shakes the bookcase and it fell out?’ Yet everything else managed to stay put? 

It's faked is one suggestion. You have to go on facts, not opinions. If crime scenes were that easy to find evidence from the cops would have an easy job and solve most cases straight away. 

1) There was a week to clear and dispose of any evidence

2) Fassey's evidence might be crap. She could have been killed outdoors, maybe not by shooting.

One thing's for sure, she didn't kill and incinerate herself.

[Tommytank1897]

7 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

It's faked is one suggestion. You have to go on facts, not opinions. If crime scenes were that easy to find evidence from the cops would have an easy job and solve most cases straight away. 

1) There was a week to clear and dispose of any evidence

2) Fassey's evidence might be crap. She could have been killed outdoors, maybe not by shooting.

One thing's for sure, she didn't kill and incinerate herself.

If there was a week to clear up why would you possible not wipe the car down? Why would you leave bones in the pit? Didn’t they search the pit and not find anything the first time? 

[Up The City!]

3 minutes ago, tommytank1985 said:

If there was a week to clear up why would you possible not wipe the car down? Why would you leave bones in the pit? Didn’t they search the pit and not find anything the first time? 

This for me is where I struggle to believe they commited the crime. On the one hand the dirty disgusting Steven Avery who lived a lifestyle that wasn't very tidy and organised was an expert crime scene cleaner? Yet on the other hand was a amateur crime scene cleaner. It doesn't make sense.

 

[Tommytank1897]

4 minutes ago, Up The City! said:

This for me is where I struggle to believe they commited the crime. On the one hand the dirty disgusting Steven Avery who lived a lifestyle that wasn't very tidy and organised was an expert crime scene cleaner? Yet on the other hand was a amateur crime scene cleaner. It doesn't make sense.

 

Same her bud. Why not crush her car ffs? Why shoot her in the garage when she was in the trailer anyway apparently according to the police (not that there’s any evidence she ever was in there) 

[Red-Robbo]

50 minutes ago, tommytank1985 said:

If there was a week to clear up why would you possible not wipe the car down? Why would you leave bones in the pit? Didn’t they search the pit and not find anything the first time? 

As I said, he isn't Einstien.

Car was hidden and possibly not at the yard all the time. 

Preliminary search was pretty shit, as is often the case. Even in one of the most famous murder cases in this country, police searched 10 Rillington Place and managed to miss the bodies in the shed and a femur in the back garden!  Second search more extensive. Sheriff put more men on it.

 

[Up The City!]

38 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

As I said, he isn't Einstien.

Car was hidden and possibly not at the yard all the time. 

Preliminary search was pretty shit, as is often the case. Even in one of the most famous murder cases in this country, police searched 10 Rillington Place and managed to miss the bodies in the shed and a femur in the back garden!  Second search more extensive. Sheriff put more men on it.

 

Tbh he is quite smart, might not look it but he is. 

Tell me this, why won't they let KZ have access to the car?

[Red-Robbo]

41 minutes ago, Up The City! said:

Tbh he is quite smart, might not look it but he is. 

Tell me this, why won't they let KZ have access to the car?

Do they ever let defence lawyers "have access to" state evidence?

Quite smart, but he served three prison sentences before he was 21, masturbated in public and killed his cat. Sounds like a psychopath.

[Red-Robbo]

"They" is the state of Wisconsin incidentally. One of the US's more liberal states - hence no death penalty.

You're expanding the conspiracy to include the entire state's judicial system (and political system) from various, random guys who happen to say the entire state is conspiring to keep a murderer out of jail, and jail two "innocents". One of whom confessed.

[Up The City!]

9 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

The trucker who just happens to be a friend of the Fassey family! And why didn't any other motorists notice this large prominent vehicle in a lay-by for two days (minimum)? There was a poster of it in the nearest petrol station.

Not sure there is any evidence that this ex-bf had the diary ever. Only "someone said so". It's how Zeller's "evidence" often is when you look into it: hearsay.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts about this.

Great debate by the way.

[Up The City!]

11 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

BUT, that doesn't mean he didn't do it. the strongest evidence points out him and Brendan, not any of the diverse and often contradictory theories advanced by Ms Zeller.

I just have to point out there is absolutely zero physical evidence linking Brendan to the murder of TH apart from a confession which many, including myself believe to be a false coerced confession.

[Red-Robbo]

7 hours ago, Up The City! said:

I just have to point out there is absolutely zero physical evidence linking Brendan to the murder of TH apart from a confession which many, including myself believe to be a false coerced confession.

But it was taped. The transcript was played to the court. How - other than the fact he isa bit thick (but well short of the criteria for having a serious mental impairment)-  was it coerced? 

Are you saying that police can never interview people whoare of less-than-average intelligence because they'll confess to things they haven't done?

[Red-Robbo]

9 hours ago, Up The City! said:

I look forward to hearing your thoughts about this.

Great debate by the way.

People who take up crusading about a case they haven't heard apart from in selective bits from a defence-centred entertainment show give me a headache. I hope none of them ever get on a real jury!

[Tommytank1897]

51 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

But it was taped. The transcript was played to the court. How - other than the fact he isa bit thick (but well short of the criteria for having a serious mental impairment)-  was it coerced? 

Are you saying that police can never interview people whoare of less-than-average intelligence because they'll confess to things they haven't done?

I can’t see how anyone can watch that on the documentary and say that they weren’t putting things into his head. I don’t know about what they didn’t show you as we’ll never see it. But it’s clear he hasn’t a clue what’s going on and just repeats things they say to him. At one point he comes out with ‘we Shot her outside’ then the police chap says ‘no we know she was shot in the garage’ absulutey garbage. There is no physical evidence he was involved in it at all. They have convicted him on a false confession. 

[Red-Robbo]

On 02/11/2018 at 13:04, tommytank1985 said:

I can’t see how anyone can watch that on the documentary and say that they weren’t putting things into his head. I don’t know about what they didn’t show you as we’ll never see it. But it’s clear he hasn’t a clue what’s going on and just repeats things they say to him. At one point he comes out with ‘we Shot her outside’ then the police chap says ‘no we know she was shot in the garage’ absulutey garbage. There is no physical evidence he was involved in it at all. They have convicted him on a false confession. 

He's not an imecile. He has an IQ that people refer to as "dull" but he doesn't just repeat stuff. He has a job. He isn't 'special needs'.

Probably best not to confess to a murder if you didn't do it. I don't think you have to be a genius to know that.

[Up The City!]

On 03/11/2018 at 17:08, Red-Robbo said:

He's not an imecile. He has an IQ that people refer to as "dull" but he doesn't just repeat stuff. He has a job. He isn't 'special needs'.

Probably best not to confess to a murder if you didn't do it. I don't think you have to be a genius to know that.

Brendan clearly has limitations, what those limitations are I'm not quite sure, his limitations clearly go further than having a low IQ. 

They clearly got into Brendan's head and they clearly conditioned him throughout the interview. There is plenty on line about this than can explain it better than I can but I've been in a few situations in my life where I can totally relate to the situation Brendan was in but on a lesser scale. As a child I was given a detention for something I didn't do, I was informed that I would have detention every day until I admitted guilt, for a while I resisted as I didn't do it, eventually after a week or so I just said that I did it so I could get out of detentions, you get what I'm saying?

He guessed his way through the thing until he hit on the answers that they wanted. Brendan would answer a question and say no that didn't happen, they would keep asking Brendan the same question over and over, putting pressure on him until he guessed right.

People with much higher IQs have made false confessions. There is many reasons why someone would wrongly confess to something they didn't do, in the USA, 30% of people who have been exonerated had previously falsely confessed to the crime. False confessions are real and they do happen.

[Red-Robbo]

4 hours ago, Up The City! said:

Brendan clearly has limitations, what those limitations are I'm not quite sure, his limitations clearly go further than having a low IQ. 

They clearly got into Brendan's head and they clearly conditioned him throughout the interview. There is plenty on line about this than can explain it better than I can but I've been in a few situations in my life where I can totally relate to the situation Brendan was in but on a lesser scale. As a child I was given a detention for something I didn't do, I was informed that I would have detention every day until I admitted guilt, for a while I resisted as I didn't do it, eventually after a week or so I just said that I did it so I could get out of detentions, you get what I'm saying?

He guessed his way through the thing until he hit on the answers that they wanted. Brendan would answer a question and say no that didn't happen, they would keep asking Brendan the same question over and over, putting pressure on him until he guessed right.

People with much higher IQs have made false confessions. There is many reasons why someone would wrongly confess to something they didn't do, in the USA, 30% of people who have been exonerated had previously falsely confessed to the crime. False confessions are real and they do happen.

Of course. His conviction is more troubling. At the same time, he was there and doesn't have an alibi I'm aware of.

[BS2 Red]

It is a fascinating documentary series.  I recently finished part 2 and (as with the first part) am utterly convinced that Avery and Dassey were set up.

But at the same time I can see that the documentary is trying to make you think that.  It’s called “Making a Murderer” after all, it wouldn’t be so compelling if it turned out that they did it and the police did a great job.

As far as I understand it though, there is no evidence on Dassey other than the (extremely dubious) confession.  I think there are grounds there to have a “reasonable doubt” about his guilt and absolutely think he should be released on bond until a retrial can occur.

As for Avery, I am not sure.  If I take what the documentary presents then he should at least have a retrial.  But I think there is more to it that the documentary is not showing and so I am too hesitant to state that he is completely innocent.

[Up The City!]

4 hours ago, BS2 Red said:

It is a fascinating documentary series.  I recently finished part 2 and (as with the first part) am utterly convinced that Avery and Dassey were set up.

But at the same time I can see that the documentary is trying to make you think that.  It’s called “Making a Murderer” after all, it wouldn’t be so compelling if it turned out that they did it and the police did a great job.

As far as I understand it though, there is no evidence on Dassey other than the (extremely dubious) confession.  I think there are grounds there to have a “reasonable doubt” about his guilt and absolutely think he should be released on bond until a retrial can occur.

As for Avery, I am not sure.  If I take what the documentary presents then he should at least have a retrial.  But I think there is more to it that the documentary is not showing and so I am too hesitant to state that he is completely innocent.

I too was a little dubious about Avery, even now I am not 100% sure he's innocent. I did a little digging into the stuff about him burning a cat and some of the allegations that are in the press, I watched a YouTube video from the law school or something and all those allegations were shown to have come from Kratz without their actually being any evidence, the fact the allegations lead back to Kratz says it all imo. I absolutely detest that dirty piece of scum.

[Tommytank1897]

Looks like she has a lot of new evidence to back up her version of events!! 

 

https://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/making-murderer-new-evidence-proves-13596263.amp

[Gazred]

Well, having now watched the remainder of Part 2 I'm pretty convinced that a re-trial would be the fair outcome for SA.

On one hand it's difficult to believe that a number of people in the legal system could conspire to stich him up and on the other an overwhelming amount of contridictions to the evidence used to prosecute him.

If it had been Kratz v KZ in the trial and i was sat on that jury, i would be having reasonable doubts about loads of it!

As for Brendon, his fate now probably lies with that of SA. If SA doesn't get out, Brendon is never coming out. His route through the appealls process etc is very different. The confession was dubious and i think he has somewhat fallen foul of the higher levels of the US justice system. Supreme Court is not interested, pretty much the end of the road in reality.

Incredible TV regardless of your view on things and some very interesting debate around it.

[Up The City!]

8 hours ago, tommytank1985 said:

Looks like she has a lot of new evidence to back up her version of events!! 

 

https://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/making-murderer-new-evidence-proves-13596263.amp

KZ apparently has evidence of who purchased that battery but isn't yet saying who. It will be in her December court filings.

[internetjef]

Just binged season 1 and 2. End of season 1, I thought Brendan looked hard done by , but still not sure about Steven.

end of season 2 starting to feel both probably been stiched up. Appreciate that is the side it is being told from though. 

In S1 there was no chat at all about the dna under the hood latch, as well as some other really important bits that came out in s2. I wonder if there is some more real smoking gun info that the prosecution used that isn’t being presented to the audience