Is working on our mistakes a good thing?

[Up The City!]

I know our players do a lot of work going over mistakes that they have made by watching videos and getting on the training pitch and being put back into that scenario, but can doing all this be counterproductive? Couldn't it simply just create a culture of fear about making mistakes? Players feel they can't express themselves incase they make mistakes?

By focusing on the mistakes are we just not creating a negitive vibe around the place? 

Surely we should be focusing on what we are GOOD at?

[Cowshed]

3 minutes ago, Up The City! said:

I know our players do a lot of work going over mistakes that they have made by watching videos and getting on the training pitch and being put back into that scenario, but can doing all this be counterproductive? Couldn't it simply just create a culture of fear about making mistakes? Players feel they can't express themselves incase they make mistakes?

By focusing on the mistakes are we just not creating a negitive vibe around the place? 

Surely we should be focusing on what we are GOOD at?

City players split focus on negatives and positives. Bill Beswick the psychologist who has worked with City certainly favours that methodology - 20% negatives 80% positive.

[Lrrr]

Its about how much time is allocated, take Hörður as an example, he made the same mistake a few times and it cost us each time. That sort of mistake does need to be coached out.

[1960maaan]

Looking back at the Brentford game it looks like we've been practising, much better mistakes 

[Cowshed]

1 minute ago, hodge said:

Its about how much time is allocated, take Hörður as an example, he made the same mistake a few times and it cost us each time. That sort of mistake does need to be coached out.

It would depend on how you want a player to perform?

Hordurs odd error can be viewed as part of risk and reward. John Stones for instance will make errors playing out but it is viewed as essential that risk is taken for him to perform as required. If he becomes risk averse he ceases to play out. Mistakes should be put into perspective - context v intent of play. 

 

[Lrrr]

8 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

It would depend on how you want a player to perform?

Hordurs odd error can be viewed as part of risk and reward. John Stones for instance will make errors playing out but it is viewed as essential that risk is taken for him to perform as required. If he becomes risk averse he ceases to play out. Mistakes should be put into perspective - context v intent of play. 

 

It wasn't playing out, it was seeing the ball out for a goal kick, the same mistake cost us 3 goals, when its that regular and costly you change it.

[Up The City!]

19 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

City players split focus on negatives and positives. Bill Beswick the psychologist who has worked with City certainly favours that methodology - 20% negatives 80% positive.

I think that's what it should be, but if you listen to any interview with the management they are always focusing on the mistakes.

It seems we spend a lot of time working on mistakes, working on our weaknesses rather than focusing on what we are good at.

[Up The City!]

1 minute ago, hodge said:

It wasn't playing out, it was seeing the ball out for a goal kick, the same mistake cost us 3 goals, when its that regular and costly you change it.

I think this is a good example of the point I'm making. Instead of instructing him to just ******* boot it out they worked on him getting better at him seeing it out for the goal kick.

[Cowshed]

8 minutes ago, hodge said:

It wasn't playing out, it was seeing the ball out for a goal kick, the same mistake cost us 3 goals, when its that regular and costly you change it.

I was unaware that the player had made three identical mistakes.

 

 

[bristolcitysweden]

The list is long

[ScottishRed]

16 minutes ago, hodge said:

It wasn't playing out, it was seeing the ball out for a goal kick, the same mistake cost us 3 goals, when its that regular and costly you change it.

Absolutely correct - I never understood how the second and third time happened!  The first should have been the only time and it should have been coached out of him immediately.

[Lrrr]

11 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

I was unaware that the player had made three identical mistakes.

The biggest part of it was that they were in a fairly short time frame, if they had been spread over the whole season it may have been overlooked somewhat

[Cowshed]

11 minutes ago, hodge said:

The biggest part of it was that they were in a fairly short time frame, if they had been spread over the whole season it may have been overlooked somewhat

Its hard to comment as I can't visualise the errors but making similar errors in quick succession can be preferable to the same errors being spread over time. The latter can be viewed as a player not learning. Decision making is formed by experience and errors are part of that process. Without going too deep its conscious and subconscious. Deep learning means certain themes disappear as players see patterns in milliseconds and respond accordingly.

 

[Pezo]

If we make a mistake you can be sure every manager that plays us will see that mistake and inform players to try it again, we need to make sure we don't have obvious weaknesses. 

We are products of our past, but we don't have to be prisoners of it. 

[AppyDAZE]

2 minutes ago, Pezo said:

If we make a mistake you can be sure every manager that plays us will see that mistake and inform players to try it again, we need to make sure we don't have obvious weaknesses. 

We are products of our past, but we don't have to be prisoners of it. 

Blimey

[chinapig]

An American guy I worked for briefly years ago once said to me that a key management skill was to sneak up behind people and catch them doing something right.

Always stuck in my mind. By all means look to improve people's skills but not at the expense of neglecting what they do well and running the risk of having them constantly worrying about getting something wrong. Chances are you will increase the likelihood of mistakes.

[downendcity]

1 hour ago, bristolcitysweden said:

The list is long

with many a winding turn.......

[BS4 on Tour...]

3 hours ago, hodge said:

Its about how much time is allocated, take Hörður as an example, he made the same mistake a few times and it cost us each time. That sort of mistake does need to be coached out.

Coached out?! “Next time, spank it into Winterstoke Road Hörður...” - job done.....

[TRL]

3 hours ago, Up The City! said:

I know our players do a lot of work going over mistakes that they have made by watching videos and getting on the training pitch and being put back into that scenario, but can doing all this be counterproductive? Couldn't it simply just create a culture of fear about making mistakes? Players feel they can't express themselves incase they make mistakes?

By focusing on the mistakes are we just not creating a negitive vibe around the place? 

Surely we should be focusing on what we are GOOD at?

nope,if you don't eradicate mistakes by learning from them, how do you hope to progress?

 

Unfortunately this is how western society is evolving, tell everyone they are great, don't hurt their feelings by telling them they are not performing well in other areas. 

 

improve your positives marginally

 

improve your negatives massively

[1960maaan]

2 hours ago, Pezo said:

We are products of our past, but we don't have to be prisoners of it. 

[1960maaan]

2 hours ago, chinapig said:

An American guy I worked for briefly years ago once said to me that a key management skill was to sneak up behind people and catch them doing something right.

Always stuck in my mind. By all means look to improve people's skills but not at the expense of neglecting what they do well and running the risk of having them constantly worrying about getting something wrong. Chances are you will increase the likelihood of mistakes.

That's pretty much where I feel we are now, LJ is so worried about failure he seems too scared to try and succeed .

[Davefevs]

10 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Coached out?! “Next time, spank it into Winterstoke Road Hörður...” - job done.....

That’s a effin’ big punt from the Dolman side!!!

[BS4 on Tour...]

5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

That’s a effin’ big punt from the Dolman side!!!

Good! As Cloughie used to say...’they can’t score from the back of the stand...’

[Wrongagain]

2 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

That's pretty much where I feel we are now, LJ is so worried about failure he seems too scared to try and succeed .

LJ is very aware of what is going on behind him - 60 minute substitutions created a lot of flack and it’s stopped, stupid because all of our recent draws cried out for changes which came too late! Callum another point, he could not get on, the fan base was going ape over it, suddenly he is given his chance and he is MOM.

unfortunately FM is still not able to control the ball so unless he gets lucky with a cross that falls right for him he is useless, which in my opinion is another example of LJ not learning from his mistakes! His 5 mil punt is a failure and we have been better when he was not available!

[Rich]

3 hours ago, Cowshed said:

Its hard to comment as I can't visualise the errors but making similar errors in quick succession can be preferable to the same errors being spread over time. The latter can be viewed as a player not learning. Decision making is formed by experience and errors are part of that process. Without going too deep its conscious and subconscious. Deep learning means certain themes disappear as players see patterns in milliseconds and respond accordingly.

 

Two at the south stand, I think it was Cardiff and Wolves, and possibly against Man City, not sure on that one though. He was hung out to dry, dropped, J B put as left back, Patterson moved to left wing. Result, he never made the same mistake again but, JB was less effective as was Patterson and the team never improved, in fact got worse. There again, he might have carried on making those mistakes but, they were against the better teams that targeted that area of weakness.

[Sixtyseconds]

Wolves was Pack making an error.

I know this because it was the only time I have been in the Lansdown.

Fine view.

But not a scene that appreciated my response to Marlon making an error.

Different climate in E34.

They swear too ...

[Up The City!]

1 hour ago, TRL said:

nope,if you don't eradicate mistakes by learning from them, how do you hope to progress?

 

Unfortunately this is how western society is evolving, tell everyone they are great, don't hurt their feelings by telling them they are not performing well in other areas. 

 

improve your positives marginally

 

improve your negatives massively

I agree with you to a certain degree. I'm not saying mistakes should be overlooked. Of course they should be looked at again. But what I'm saying is I think we concentrate on the mistakes more than we concentrate on our strengths. I feel there is a culture of fear of making a mistake. Players are not really able to express themselves without that fear. I think they are being over coached so that when they receive the ball instead of playing their natural game they are thinking what LJ wants them to do, they are thinking what if I make a mistake.

I give Man Utd under Jose as an example. It's very similar imo.

 

[TRL]

4 minutes ago, Up The City! said:

I agree with you to a certain degree. I'm not saying mistakes should be overlooked. Of course they should be looked at again. But what I'm saying is I think we concentrate on the mistakes more than we concentrate on our strengths. I feel there is a culture of fear of making a mistake. Players are not really able to express themselves without that fear. I think they are being over coached so that when they receive the ball instead of playing their natural game they are thinking what LJ wants them to do, they are thinking what if I make a mistake.

I give Man Utd under Jose as an example. It's very similar imo.

 

Oh I agree, I am seeing what you are getting at now. I Whole hardheartedly agree with that point

 

Always play to your positives,  play to stifle the opposition and kill your own game in my mind is stupid.  But you have to focus on your individual failings to really improve, improve your good play where you can i.e Beckham staying behind after training to focus on 30 or 40 minutes of free kick taking and crossing

 

 

[reddoh]

4 hours ago, chinapig said:

An American guy I worked for briefly years ago once said to me that a key management skill was to sneak up behind people and catch them doing something right.

Always stuck in my mind. By all means look to improve people's skills but not at the expense of neglecting what they do well and running the risk of having them constantly worrying about getting something wrong. Chances are you will increase the likelihood of mistakes.

I used to work for a company who wanted to improve everyone I was working with many talented people who were doing a brilliant job and were happy where they were but boxes were left unticked(I think the world blew up and we all died).