The Championship FFP Thread (Merged)

[Davefevs]

13 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Nottingham Forest?

Their starting position was T-2 £25m, combined average £22m loss across 2019-20 and 2020-21.

£69m in 3 years, P&S being-£47m.

Unsure what you mean by starting position, do you mean in P&S terms?

Ours was a £10m profit and £10m and £38m losses, pre tax. Combined average £10m and -£24m.

-£38m in 3 years, -£14m.

In each case before allowable losses and Covid add-backs.

Yes, Forest, but I meant squad wise.  They didn’t have to completely rebuild, like us.

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Yes, Forest, but I meant squad wise.  They didn’t have to completely rebuild, like us.

It's chicken and egg tbh but surely a reason that we had to rebuild in that way was due to self sacrifice and tough financial decisions.

They were perhaps a couple of million over even with their Covid losses as stated and when you factor in the EFL £2.5m voted Year 3 ones an 8 figure breach is quite plausible.

The EFL monitoring requirements on us vs them I really wonder. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Watford lost £16.15m in the PL last season.

Seems odd that their commercial revenue was £36m...unless they've bundled up Commercial and T.V. revenue as the latter was well under £100m.

[slartibartfast]

Talking of all this, when are Reading going to get their points deduction ?

[Davefevs]

34 minutes ago, slartibartfast said:

Talking of all this, when are Reading going to get their points deduction ?

Hopefully they’re gonna give us 3 today!

[Davefevs]

[Mr Popodopolous]

11 hours ago, slartibartfast said:

Talking of all this, when are Reading going to get their points deduction ?

Ince said on Thursday that it was due within 48 hours but then he has been forecasting it for weeks!?

[Mr Popodopolous]

Blackburn despite selling Armstrong and income bouncing back post Covid lost £11m last season.

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/23427650.blackburn-rovers-financial-accounts-2021-22-published/

Unsure if the full accounts on the site.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Found the Blackburn accounts.

Wage bill of £24.2m last season- done well, doing well! May have increased this season but definitively losing well- although losing Nyambe, Lenihan and Rothwell on frees and potentially Brereton-Diaz too isn't great. Heavily linked to Villarreal of course, on a free

 

Edited April 2, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

Where did you get their accounts from?

[Mr Popodopolous]

22 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Where did you get their accounts from?

Took a bit of finding but.

https://www.rovers.co.uk/club/shareholder-centre

Sort of stumbled across it a bit tbh.

Edited April 3, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

We still await the full accounts for:

1) Fulham and associated companies, in fact any numbers at all there even headline ones.

2) West Brom and associated companies.

Obviously Huddersfield, Peterborough and then Blades Leisure Limited and Sheffield United all seem to have taken up to a further 3 month extension.

In the PL we have some headline figures for Chelsea and Crystal Palace £121m and £24m respectively, Everton lost £44.75m pre tax, Leeds made a loss on a reported turnover of £172m but I don't see how it can be that big. City Football Group are also overdue interestingly, Newcastle lost £70m  but included some one off costs, Southampton lost £24m, spent £100m this season.

Our old friend Ashton, Ipswich yet to release- were due Friday!

[Davefevs]

Derby overdue too.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Glad you mentioned Derby! Ha they're about 4 years overdue.

Serious note as I understand it as it's a new company they don't need to release 2022 ones as thst company is going through the liquidation/administration process. Under a strict Business Plan but the first actual accounts under the new company are up 30th June 2023 and are due at CH at end of March 2024.

The League will have the relevant info but no obligation to publish for last year. Because of prior losses being reset as is standard it's likely they didn't exceed £13m laat year but only club and League will know.

I would also question whether they have offloaded operating costs and kept the benefits- they were £15m higher last time accounts were published for 2017-18 for the consolidator ie Sevco 5112 v the club. Such companies as Club DCFC, Derby County Academy, Stadia DCFC all sat under Sevco 5112.

There was also Gellaw Newco 203 Limited which never saw the light of day but seemed to be the newest topco.

A Category 1 Academy- they've somehow retained despite near bankruptcy yes I know it's exempt from FFP but that's fairly unusual in club insolvency cases no??

Cost of staging events isn't cheap as we know.

Edited April 3, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Just by way of comparison.

[Mr Popodopolous]

If you see the revenue v costs for each then you see for us eg revenue v costs my case is that Derby at some stage were seeking to include pretty much all of the revenue in the club accounts but all of the costs only in the Sevco 5112 and or Gellaw Newco 203.

Club

Consolidator

The Sevco 5112 for 2017 are 10 months so treat with a bit of caution but 2018 speaks for itself.

Edited April 3, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Fulham accounts just appeared...should be there next couple of days. For Fulham Football Leisure and Cougar Holdco London Limited. One of these is the topco for FFP.

I also notice that Man City have not released  a lot of middling companies that sit under CFG but are linked to Man City. Could be a full list online somewhere.

Having said that Man City do a big charge, recharge whatever so that may cover it. Next year they seem to be consolidated the UK operations into City Football Group Midco. As in accounts to June 2023 available next Spring.

Edited April 3, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Mr. Ashton and his first full season.

Not yet wildly excessive...

[Mr Popodopolous]

Now Reading.

Do we think Paul Ince is mischief making and or using a false points deduction in order to keep team on its toes.

Okay that is far fetched but the number of times he has said it is imminent...is unusual?

My real view is that it's haggling at an IDC or similar but if that's the case could it drag into next year.

How do you dispute an Agreed Decision anyway?

Edited April 3, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[downendcity]

12 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Now Reading.

Do we think Paul Ince is mischief making and or using a false points deduction in order to keep team on its toes.

Okay that is far fetched but the number of times he has said it is imminent...is unusual?

Ince probably thinks imminent is the white liquid the physios massage the players' legs with before a game.

[Davefevs]

Ipswich - not wildly excessive, but losses doubled in a season they got fans back!  Albeit losses 20/21 (pre-Ashton) were saved by CJRS and Insurance of £4m.

His claim they were net zero on transfers last season was false.  But it’s quite economical with facts to use net spend, when we know it’s a pretty useless concept.

The facts are that they made £2.338m in transfer profit, but paid £3.392m in fees (not forgetting another £0.850m spend on agent fees), plus the wage bill went up £3.000m.  So the claims from fans (TWTD forum) he’d got rid of the high earners to reduce the wage bill was wrong, just replaced them with higher earners!!!

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, downendcity said:

Ince probably thinks imminent is the white liquid the physios massage the players' legs with before a game.

Think you might be right. Talking of the man himself...

https://www.getreading.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/paul-ince-reading-fc-relegation-26620537

Well yes and no. Restrictions yes and-6 would be a blow but how many clubs let alone under FFP have a special tie with Chelsea.

Drinkwatet and Rahman for close to all of 2021-22. 90 pct or perhaps 100 pct covered by the parent club.

Then this year, Rahman again for close to a season and Casadei for half a season.

How much would a season of Hendrick on loan cost??

Then was there any subsidy for Loum and Fornah- Porto and Nottingham Forest fringe or young midfielders respectively.

Retention of Lucas Joao and Meite, Yiadom- players like that.

Perhaps Loum and Fornah wouldn't be that much hut the optics taken as a whole are.. interesting.

Edited April 3, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Round and round we go...how many reports is this now.

Hopefully there will be Written Reasons. Sounds like their financial restrictions ie Business Plan will be ending however.

Edited April 3, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

You’d think a journo from Reading wouldn’t make it up.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Wouldn't make it up but could be wrong. However yes surely this week...interested in how long it can take if it's just the other -6 with new embargoto enforce a suspended deduction from an Agreed Decision.

[Hxj]

6 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Round and round we go...how many reports is this now.

I'm wondering if the obvious delays are because there are negotiations ongoing in respect of an agreed decision for the breaches which caused the imposition of the suspended offence.

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 minutes ago, Hxj said:

I'm wondering if the obvious delays are because there are negotiations ongoing in respect of an agreed decision for the breaches which caused the imposition of the suspended offence.

Can you expand? I've read this a couple of times, I was under the assumption that breach of Business Plan=-6.

Unless it's that Reading argue within, EFL argue fail. Agreed Decision to enforce a suspended penalty from the Agreed Decision?

[Mr Popodopolous]

Any thoughts also @Hxj on any of all Fulham, Nottingham Forest and even Stoke for FFP to 2022, 2022 and 2021 respectively? My view is that all could have cases to answer.

Edited April 3, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Hxj]

2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I was under the assumption that breach of Business Plan=-6

The relevant part of the agreed decision follows:

 

If we work through it:

6.1 Happened last season.

6.2 Has allegedly been trigged now, so the 6 point penalty applies.  Note that each of the triggers for activation is itself an offence under the EFL regulations.

So 7 is applied.  This starts 'The Suspended Penalty will be in addition to any sanction ... [for breaching P&S Rules or the budget]'.  6.2 i) and iii) are P&S Rule breaches, 6.2 ii) is a budget breach.

7 goes on that the suspended penalty does not mitigate the sanction for the breach.

So to activate the suspended penalty of the six point deduction there has to be an offence which carries its own penalty, which could be a points deduction (or something else).

 

 

 

 

[Hxj]

2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Any thoughts also @Hxj on any of all Fulham, Nottingham Forest and even Stoke for FFP to 2022, 2022 and 2021 respectively?

New job seriously getting in the way of free time.  Apparently there is a four day weekend soon, when I will have some time to look, assuming I don't get given tickets for everyday of the beer festival!