The Championship FFP Thread (Merged)

[Mr Popodopolous]

Bellingham reportedly moving for £89m up front which is lower than expected. More in the way of add one etc.

What did he leave Birmingham for? 15 pct of profit was reported hut I expect they will have been anticipating a greater fee and therefore windfall FFP wise.

[bcfc01]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Bellingham reportedly moving for £89m up front which is lower than expected. More in the way of add one etc.

What did he leave Birmingham for? 15 pct of profit was reported hut I expect they will have been anticipating a greater fee and therefore windfall FFP wise.

Left Brum for 25m according to transfermrket.

 

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

Left Brum for 25m according to transfermrket.

 

£9.6m to Brum if that’s the case….that’s almost “a Semenyo”!!!

[bcfc01]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

£9.6m to Brum if that’s the case….that’s almost “a Semenyo”!!!

Yep. They would get nearly 35m for what was a 17 year old (just) at the time and still only 19.

Good deal for him, Brum, and Dortmund.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Interesting comments by Lopetegui.

Some kinda soft embargo?? Did the League show the same energy with Everton in 2021 or summer 2022. 

If Wolves have a deficit to 2022-23, they have oh I dunno 3 days to fix it! Accounts are like us made up until end of May. They can always extend to end of June or July but that in turn would extend the existing deals which in turn would but time but increase the existing deficit and therefore the size of the hole.

Edited May 29, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[WarksRobin]

Might be worth keeping an eye on Leicester too
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/65622943

[chinapig]

8 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Interesting comments by Lopetegui.

Some kinda soft embargo?? Did the League show the same energy with Everton in 2021 or summer 2022. 

If Wolves have a deficit to 2022-23, they have oh I dunno 3 days to fix it! Accounts are like us made up until end of May. They can always extend to end of June or July but that in turn would extend the existing deals which in turn would but time but increase the existing deficit and therefore the size of the hole.

The Premier League doesn't have any schedule of FFP sanctions so a soft embargo seems unlikely.

More a case of them being close to breaching FFP so they have no scope to sign players having spent £200m this season.

Evidently Lopetegui doesn't accept the reality of their position. I'd be surprised if he is there next season.

[chinapig]

2 hours ago, WarksRobin said:

Might be worth keeping an eye on Leicester too
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/65622943

Yes, saw that earlier.

Wage bill £180m, £19m in quarterly interest payments alone to the notorious Macquarie, out of contract players with no value, in contract players with reduced value, etc and so on. Big trouble may be ahead.

Yet more mismanagement of a club. Barney Ronay put it nicely in The Guardian today: they were relegated because they forgot not to get relegated.

[WarksRobin]

4 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Yes, saw that earlier.

Wage bill £180m, £19m in quarterly interest payments alone to the notorious Macquarie, out of contract players with no value, in contract players with reduced value, etc and so on. Big trouble may be ahead.

Yet more mismanagement of a club. Barney Ronay put it nicely in The Guardian today: they were relegated because they forgot not to get relegated.

Those quarterly interest payments balance out their parachute payments. No doubt they will sell some players and reduce wage bill but they won’t have the same advantage as Burnley or Norwich. If they don’t get promoted next season or find new investment it could be a long slide for them

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 hours ago, WarksRobin said:

Might be worth keeping an eye on Leicester too
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/65622943

Have been. They quietly moved their accounting Reporting Period to the end of June 2023 when without it should be well this Wednesday like us.

Wonder if they need to fill any kind of FFP hole by the end of the Reporting Period.

Could be cash flow and timing too of course.

Edited May 29, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[downendcity]

4 hours ago, chinapig said:

The Premier League doesn't have any schedule of FFP sanctions so a soft embargo seems unlikely.

More a case of them being close to breaching FFP so they have no scope to sign players having spent £200m this season.

Evidently Lopetegui doesn't accept the reality of their position. I'd be surprised if he is there next season.

That's one crossed off the list of Alex Scott transfers then 

[ExiledAjax]

23 hours ago, chinapig said:

Yes, saw that earlier.

Wage bill £180m, £19m in quarterly interest payments alone to the notorious Macquarie, out of contract players with no value, in contract players with reduced value, etc and so on. Big trouble may be ahead.

Yet more mismanagement of a club. Barney Ronay put it nicely in The Guardian today: they were relegated because they forgot not to get relegated.

I speak to a few Foxes fans, including some who work at the club. A few have mentioned that "Top", the owner, has found it very hard to run the club since his father's horrendous death 5 years ago. Whether it's a struggle to live up to his father's achievements with the club, the impact of COVID on the King Power business, or just an apathy driven by what must be constant reminders of his dad's death whenever he does something with Leicester. Apparently he has struggled to give the club full focus.

Now, of course he doesn't run it alone. There's a board, a manager, coaches, backroom staff etc. But, culture comes from the top, in this case literally it comes from "Top". If he's not fully invested - even for quite understandable reasons - then the club will suffer.

I'm not saying it's the reason they have been relegated (it's kind a hearsay anyway) but it could be a contributing factor.

Edited May 30, 2023 by ExiledAjax

[Rob26]

this is a good fan made article on leceisters issues https://www.thefosseway.net/viewpoint/leicester-city-2023-relegation-financial-fair-play-finances-parachute-payments-money

[Davefevs]

@Rob26 ta for sharing.  It’s easy to look at the relegated clubs as doom and gloom this season, and I’m sure many were doing the same with Burnley last summer due to their loan which was being called in.  But expired contracts, the odd big sale (Maddison) and they’ve created the float to recruit and add to what they have.  They will be an attractive proposition to any players they court. But admittedly their recruitment team is under a bit of pressure, and aren’t used to the new pool they will be fishing in.  Kompany took advantage of a market he knew (Belgium), a bit like Wagner did at Huddersfield those years back.  If Dean Smith stays then he will have a good idea of what’s needed as well as having been at Norwich last season, his knowledge of the Champ is at least current.

But they could get it so wrong also.

Think it’s gonna be a really fun summer.

[NcnsBcfc]

I had hoped after Gould's hard work that the whole saga of FFP and Parachute payments would have led to the Championship being a fairer place for a majority of the teams.

Is it still the case that nothing has been decided, or even in fact gone to a vote of any kind?

It just seems to me around 8 teams (the ones that have revolving promotion/relegation doors) seem to dictate the financial policies for the whole division, knowing that they will be backed by the PL in their endeavours. A real shame that at least 2 out of 3 promoted will continue to be from this group.

[Rob26]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

@Rob26 ta for sharing.  It’s easy to look at the relegated clubs as doom and gloom this season, and I’m sure many were doing the same with Burnley last summer due to their loan which was being called in.  But expired contracts, the odd big sale (Maddison) and they’ve created the float to recruit and add to what they have.  They will be an attractive proposition to any players they court. But admittedly their recruitment team is under a bit of pressure, and aren’t used to the new pool they will be fishing in.  Kompany took advantage of a market he knew (Belgium), a bit like Wagner did at Huddersfield those years back.  If Dean Smith stays then he will have a good idea of what’s needed as well as having been at Norwich last season, his knowledge of the Champ is at least current.

But they could get it so wrong also.

Think it’s gonna be a really fun summer.

I think what makes the difference with teams that get relegated is why they got relegated, was it being outclassed on the pitch? or was there severe issues off the pitch as well.

when the issues off the pitch are not resolved that usually guarantees they won't be the usual one team that bounces back first time.

out of the 3 southampton are the ones that look like they have their shit together off the pitch more than the others.

leeds however have made some off the field changes which may help them, but I think they might be a year off bouncing back

Leicester for me is flip a coin if they get their shit together for me and become instant challengers, that money issue probs won't be as bad it reads once sales come in and people leave etc, but from a few posts I've seen from people who say they work inside the club that the son is just not into it and been detached since his dad died, which is more than understandable, but can see that's why their plan has changed and he been influenced by rogers and others to move from what kept them strong making at least one strong big sale a season to keeping people past their ideal sell by date (who are now going out of contract with money lost) and picking up far too many short term signings with little sale value baked into them. interesting to see what they do and who stays and goes and who comes in, sure they were on a uefa watch list for FFP, not sure on their numbers but guess you guys may have something on them. but all will probs be irrelevant until we know what business they are going to do, they should have around £100m come in at least. and that wage bill will need trimming down too 

[Rob26]

1 hour ago, NcnsBcfc said:

I had hoped after Gould's hard work that the whole saga of FFP and Parachute payments would have led to the Championship being a fairer place for a majority of the teams.

Is it still the case that nothing has been decided, or even in fact gone to a vote of any kind?

It just seems to me around 8 teams (the ones that have revolving promotion/relegation doors) seem to dictate the financial policies for the whole division, knowing that they will be backed by the PL in their endeavours. A real shame that at least 2 out of 3 promoted will continue to be from this group.

even without parachute payments the league would be at a disadvantage to the premier league teams, as I reckon was probs the case before the payments were invented, although I've not looked anything up

FFP and finances seem to be better monitored since they changed the rules not to long ago, just shame its a slow process at time for FFP

[chinapig]

6 hours ago, Rob26 said:

this is a good fan made article on leceisters issues https://www.thefosseway.net/viewpoint/leicester-city-2023-relegation-financial-fair-play-finances-parachute-payments-money

Thanks, good piece with a nice turn of phrase especially this:

... the possibility of one or two hanging around like determined cockroaches after a nuclear holocaust is very real. 

Though implying that their parachute payments to 2025/26 being swallowed up by payments to Maquarie is no big deal seems a bit complacent.

 

[Rob26]

20 hours ago, chinapig said:

Thanks, good piece with a nice turn of phrase especially this:

... the possibility of one or two hanging around like determined cockroaches after a nuclear holocaust is very real. 

Though implying that their parachute payments to 2025/26 being swallowed up by payments to Maquarie is no big deal seems a bit complacent.

 

I think sales may well cover these items and they can always get more financing to restructure that debt,

they will probs sell people on to hack that wage bill right down and put money in the bank to pay these things, 

but do think it sets them up for problems if they take more than 2 years to bounce back they may well start to struggle

, leeds look like they will change hands sometime soon as the owner has bought sampadoria and wants out https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-12142549/Leeds-owner-Andrea-Radrizzani-completes-takeover-relegated-Serie-outfit-Sampdoria.html

[chinapig]

31 minutes ago, Rob26 said:

I think sales may well cover these items and they can always get more financing to restructure that debt,

they will probs sell people on to hack that wage bill right down and put money in the bank to pay these things, 

but do think it sets them up for problems if they take more than 2 years to bounce back they may well start to struggle

, leeds look like they will change hands sometime soon as the owner has bought sampadoria and wants out https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-12142549/Leeds-owner-Andrea-Radrizzani-completes-takeover-relegated-Serie-outfit-Sampdoria.html

You may well be right and to an extent I am playing devil's advocate to counter the expectation typified by their owner saying "don't worry, we'll be back" recently.

According to the Athletic podcast this week they budgeted on the assumption that they would be challenging for Europe every year, hence the seventh highest wage bill. That kind of complacency would worry me if I was a Leicester fan.

Even if they halve it their wage budget would be around £90m, having lost £100m in revenue. They will get lower fees for the likes of Maddison and Barnes than they would have before relegation and of course King Power have financial issues of their own.

I'm not suggesting they won't be challenging just that it's no foregone conclusion that they will go straight back up.

[Rob26]

16 hours ago, chinapig said:

You may well be right and to an extent I am playing devil's advocate to counter the expectation typified by their owner saying "don't worry, we'll be back" recently.

According to the Athletic podcast this week they budgeted on the assumption that they would be challenging for Europe every year, hence the seventh highest wage bill. That kind of complacency would worry me if I was a Leicester fan.

Even if they halve it their wage budget would be around £90m, having lost £100m in revenue. They will get lower fees for the likes of Maddison and Barnes than they would have before relegation and of course King Power have financial issues of their own.

I'm not suggesting they won't be challenging just that it's no foregone conclusion that they will go straight back up.

yeah I think this year they are probs fine this season to manage financially, but next season who do they sell on to make the deficit, think they have a single shot to go up and then are at risk of slipping hard, they can refinance the loan, but we have seen a trend that these vulture companies want payments made while the epl money is still being paid to them. so not sure how much longer they would get to pay off the 8x£19m payments I think they have left to make, maybe still possible tho but at what interest rate, I bet its 10% ish now, so for the extra risk and term length that could possibly double

 

they have an expected turn over of 70m this up coming season

they owe 76m in 3rd party loan payments next season, and think season after.

so that's this season -6m before wage and any other costs

they will obv have some incomes from past sales but bet some of that is offset with transfer instalments they owe themselves

they also have massive out goings too, wage bill alone last season was 180m, with many thought to no be on relegation reduction clauses, sales should bring this down alot but it will still be mental for the championship

as they can sell players to reduce the wage bill, but that will involve paying off a good chunk of peoples contracts as well.

I think they will bring in circa 100m from sales, but could come in less as apart from the highest in demand players with them being relegated then they will have their value cut than if they sold them in the premier league, especially when its clear to see from the outside their numbers are not adding up 

were they not also on a uefa FFP watch list, so will be under some FFP scrutiny too by the EFL

recruitment and management is the key here I think, and they been lacking in both lately, recruitment decision making on sales and purchases not been the same since the dad died, and seen on a few forums that some staff members have said the son understandably just isnt into it the same as he was when his dad was here and him and people helping him are not making the right decisions or continuing with what got his dad the success they had, which was always sell high buy low, they missed the boat on several players who are now out of contract which would of gave them the money to probs avoid relegation and this loan., chasing short term gains

Edited June 1, 2023 by Rob26

[chinapig]

7 minutes ago, Rob26 said:

yeah I think this year they are probs fine this season to manage financially, but next season who do they sell on to make the deficit, think they have a single shot to go up and then are at risk of slipping hard, they can refinance the loan, but we have seen a trend that these vulture companies want payments made while the epl money is still being paid to them. so not sure how much longer they would get to pay off the 8x£19m payments I think they have left to make

they have an expected turn over of 70m next season

they owe 76m in 3rd party loan payments next season, and think season after.

so thats this season -6m before wage and any other costs

they also have massive out goings too, wage bill alone last season was 180m, with many thought to no be on relegation reduction clauses, sales should bring this down alot but it will still be mental for the championship

as they can sell players to reduce the wage bill, but that will involve paying off a good chunk of peoples contracts as well.

I think they will bring in circa 100m from sales, but could come in less as apart from the highest in demand players with them being relegated then they will have their value cut than if they sold them in the premier league, especially when its clear to see from the outside their numbers are not adding up 

were they not also on a uefa FFP watch list, so will be under some FFP scrutiny too by the EFL

recruitment and management is the key here I think, and they been lacking in both lately, recruitment decision making on sales and purchases not been the same since the dad died, and seen on a few forums that some staff members have said the son understandably just isnt into it the same as he was when his dad was here and him and people helping him are not making the right decisions or continuing with what got his dad the success they had, which was always sell high buy low, they missed the boat on several players who are now out of contract which would of gave them the money to probs avoid relegation and this loan., chasing short term gains

According to the Athletic podcast they do have relegation clauses of between 35% and 50%, which helps but they will still have a massive wage bill in the Championship.

Assuming loans were secured against TV revenue they will surely find it hard to refinance on more favourable terms.

And a Leicester fan I know reckons recruitment went wrong when Rodgers was given complete control.

Will be interesting to see how this pans out!

[Davefevs]

19 minutes ago, chinapig said:

According to the Athletic podcast they do have relegation clauses of between 35% and 50%, which helps but they will still have a massive wage bill in the Championship.

Assuming loans were secured against TV revenue they will surely find it hard to refinance on more favourable terms.

And a Leicester fan I know reckons recruitment went wrong when Rodgers was given complete control.

Will be interesting to see how this pans out!

It’s interesting that the quartet of Nige, Shakespeare, Walsh and MacKenzie all knitted together brilliantly at Leicester, but all left The Foxes.  It looks like Shakespeare and Mackenzie are starting to repeat that at Villa.  Walsh didn’t have a great time at Everton, but then against he did recommend Haaland!  He’s now consulting at Charlotte in the MLS.  Over a period of time Leicester’s recruitment has struggled.

[Ostrich]

1 hour ago, chinapig said:

According to the Athletic podcast they do have relegation clauses of between 35% and 50%, which helps but they will still have a massive wage bill in the Championship.

Assuming loans were secured against TV revenue they will surely find it hard to refinance on more favourable terms.

And a Leicester fan I know reckons recruitment went wrong when Rodgers was given complete control.

Will be interesting to see how this pans out!

The owners will probably end up refinancing it themselves by extending the existing facility they have to cover working capital needs to cover the Macquarie loan.
 

I see, a bit of a falsehood has developed with this 19m a quarter that stemmed from a typically financially illiterate journo. 19m was the interest cost in the last accounts - a chunk of this was on loans from parent company (mostly for the training ground & Covid costs) which 194m were converted to equity in December. The Macquarie loan stands at 80m to be paid off until 2026 with 6.63% interest - last accounts interest cost on bank loans and overdrafts was 9m total. Not pretty but different to how it’s been reported.

Not easy going down with such a huge wage bill, clearly will be helped by players being out of contract, clauses, Rodgers’ departure (was, after bonuses, on 10m a year himself) and still plenty of sellable assets but the wage bill being so high in the first place and the sleepwalk to relegation over the last 12 months doesn’t give many Leicester fans too much hope that they’ll make the calls to put us in a position to go back up. If we don’t go straight back up I’m sure there’s big problems on the horizon. 

Edited June 1, 2023 by Ostrich

[chinapig]

3 minutes ago, Ostrich said:

The owners will probably end up refinancing it themselves by extending the existing facility they have to cover working capital needs to cover the Macquarie loan.
 

I see, a bit of a falsehood has developed with this 19m a quarter that stemmed from a typically financially illiterate journo. 19m was the interest cost in the last accounts - a chunk of this was on loans from parent company (mostly for the training ground & Covid costs) which 194m were converted to equity in December. The Macquarie loan stands at 80m to be paid off until 2026 - last accounts interest cost on bank loans and overdrafts was 9m. Not pretty but different to how it’s been reported.

Not easy going down with such a huge wage bill, clearly will be helped by players being out of contract, clauses, Rodgers’ departure (was, after bonuses, on 10m a year himself) and still plenty of sellable assets but the wage bill being so high in the first place and the sleepwalk to relegation over the last 12 months doesn’t give many Leicester fans too much hope that they’ll make the calls to put us in a position to go back up. If we don’t go straight back up I’m sure there’s big problems on the horizon. 

Thanks for the perspective. I relied on the Athletic's Leicester correspondent but yes it would be good if the likes of Kieran Maguire or Matt Slater got their teeth into it.

Best of luck anyway and no you can't have Nige back!

[Davefevs]

7 minutes ago, Ostrich said:

The owners will probably end up refinancing it themselves by extending the existing facility they have to cover working capital needs to cover the Macquarie loan.
 

I see, a bit of a falsehood has developed with this 19m a quarter that stemmed from a typically financially illiterate journo. 19m was the interest cost in the last accounts - a chunk of this was on loans from parent company (mostly for the training ground & Covid costs) which 194m were converted to equity in December. The Macquarie loan stands at 80m to be paid off until 2026 - last accounts interest cost on bank loans and overdrafts was 9m. Not pretty but different to how it’s been reported.

Not easy going down with such a huge wage bill, clearly will be helped by players being out of contract, clauses, Rodgers’ departure (was, after bonuses, on 10m a year himself) and still plenty of sellable assets but the wage bill being so high in the first place and the sleepwalk to relegation over the last 12 months doesn’t give many Leicester fans too much hope that they’ll make the calls to put us in a position to go back up. If we don’t go straight back up I’m sure there’s big problems on the horizon. 

I see Tielemans has gone to the nexus stating he’s off (free) ahead of any official club statement.

[Ostrich]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I see Tielemans has gone to the nexus stating he’s off (free) ahead of any official club statement.

His performances announced it at least 18 months ago

[Rob26]

1 hour ago, chinapig said:

According to the Athletic podcast they do have relegation clauses of between 35% and 50%, which helps but they will still have a massive wage bill in the Championship.

Assuming loans were secured against TV revenue they will surely find it hard to refinance on more favourable terms.

And a Leicester fan I know reckons recruitment went wrong when Rodgers was given complete control.

Will be interesting to see how this pans out!

yeah he made them cling on to players that they would of cashed in on and buy older players as well that have next to no sell on value, causing the financial crush they having now

[Davefevs]

5 minutes ago, Ostrich said:

His performances announced it at least 18 months ago

So I gather from social media responses!

[Rob26]

20 minutes ago, Ostrich said:

The owners will probably end up refinancing it themselves by extending the existing facility they have to cover working capital needs to cover the Macquarie loan.
 

I see, a bit of a falsehood has developed with this 19m a quarter that stemmed from a typically financially illiterate journo. 19m was the interest cost in the last accounts - a chunk of this was on loans from parent company (mostly for the training ground & Covid costs) which 194m were converted to equity in December. The Macquarie loan stands at 80m to be paid off until 2026 with 6.63% interest - last accounts interest cost on bank loans and overdrafts was 9m total. Not pretty but different to how it’s been reported.

Not easy going down with such a huge wage bill, clearly will be helped by players being out of contract, clauses, Rodgers’ departure (was, after bonuses, on 10m a year himself) and still plenty of sellable assets but the wage bill being so high in the first place and the sleepwalk to relegation over the last 12 months doesn’t give many Leicester fans too much hope that they’ll make the calls to put us in a position to go back up. If we don’t go straight back up I’m sure there’s big problems on the horizon. 

well at least the loan not as bad as being touted for them, and I can't see anyone offering better rates on that loan, and if did restructure it they would only have it go up as the risk increased and the term was dragged out too, but people will pay to benefit cashflow. 

would they even of got the loan if they were prepared to loan themselves that amount of cash? seems daft when you could save yourself so much money doing so, seems like they already drew the line in the sand and that's why they got the loan in the first place. They just wrote off 200m I think

when you hear these sort of stories about the numbers I think they may look to move it on to someone else, epically if they don't bounce back

do any of you have any numbers for my club Middlesbrough where we are looking for FFP allowance to spend this season :laugh:, few of us wondering what the potentials are for spends

Edited June 1, 2023 by Rob26