The Championship FFP Thread (Merged)

[Mr Popodopolous]

Makes you wonder just how big an FFP mess Leicester would be in had they stayed down??

Parachure Payments down by £10m and FFP 3 Year limit down by £22m in the 2nd year. Offset a bit by the unusual voted on £2.5m rise in FFP and a similar rise in EFL TV cash.

I reckon they made £45-50m in Profit on Disposal of Players in 2023-24, and they still maybe over.

We know that they failed to 2022-23 given the PL charge and we know that the Fixed Assets loophole is shut at our level.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Leeds will now have a reckoning with FFP. The purported £100m in sales needed I'm not quite sure about that but to this season they should be fine..to next? Hmm.

The reckoning for Leicester and in some ways Southampton may have been bigger.

Swiss Ramble suggested that their Allowables were £11m in 2021-22 and £12m in 2022-23. I'll assume similar to 2023-24.

Their transfer profit was much reduced but I reckon their Amortisation down £20-30m and assuming no Impairment is repeated, a further £20m saved.

There was around £9m spent on the multiple managerial changes. That won't be repeated. I will try and find the source for that.

Wages will be down of course, 40-50% maybe?

A P&S hole of £25-30m going into next season just to get back level wouldn't surprise me too much.

Perhaps higher? Not the £100m in player sales though.

Edited May 26 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

I should add that Leeds and Southampton submitted some data and agreed to do so as EFL clubs are expected to do in order to make sure they remained compliant to this season.

Leicester as we know resisted.

[1960maaan]

Just saw the Kieran MaguireTweet , how the hell can they owe £190m ???
That is an amazing amount of money to still owe. 
 

 

 

 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Ah that is Cash Flow, transfer instalments as they fall due.

All depends on whether their owners are willing and able and their general finances, if so that shouldn't be too big a concern. That £190m will be over x years.

[Davefevs]

28 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Ah that is Cash Flow, transfer instalments as they fall due.

All depends on whether their owners are willing and able and their general finances, if so that shouldn't be too big a concern. That £190m will be over x years.

Will be interesting to see how much other clubs paid to loan their players for the season.  Their income for 23/24 won’t just be from player sales, but loan fees (as well as saved wages).

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Will be interesting to see how much other clubs paid to loan their players for the season.  Their income for 23/24 won’t just be from player sales, but loan fees (as well as saved wages).

I reckon so, they did add and there will be loan fees, and loan wages of course. Maybe a £70-80m wage bill?

[chinapig]

12 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Ah that is Cash Flow, transfer instalments as they fall due.

All depends on whether their owners are willing and able and their general finances, if so that shouldn't be too big a concern. That £190m will be over x years.

It may be more a cash flow than FFP issue but how bad it is depends on how many years x represents.

Assuming x is the number of years remaining on player contracts it may be a relatively short period. Even if we assume a generous 5 years they would have to find almost £40m a year. Not a trivial sum or one likely to be significantly offset by receipts from sales and loans.

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 hours ago, chinapig said:

It may be more a cash flow than FFP issue but how bad it is depends on how many years x represents.

Assuming x is the number of years remaining on player contracts it may be a relatively short period. Even if we assume a generous 5 years they would have to find almost £40m a year. Not a trivial sum or one likely to be significantly offset by receipts from sales and loans.

I agree China. FFP is manageable with sales, restraint, cheaper replacement, smaller squad etc. Returning group of loanees..the annual amortisation cost of to name 4 Koch, Adams, Sinisterra, Rodrigo will be gone too.

Bigger issue feels like Cash Flow yeah. £60 or £70m fell due this year, presumably this will be the largest chunk. Mix of Parachute Payments and owner input, be it loans if cash. Then again some clubs get it all in a cash sense-, Aston Villa and Fulham to name 2, the ROI in respect of NSWE and Shahid Khan I don't see that materialising any time soon.

From a financial perspective I mean.

Edited May 27 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Sumemrville being sold will go a long way towards the FFP IMO.

https://motleedsnews.com/transfers/crysencio-summerville-expected-to-leave-leeds-united-after-wembley-defeat-phil-hay/

If they had say several million in headroom left to this year selling one or two of the loanees by 30th June with multiple years on their contract at a small loss would book the loss in this year and save on amortisation in the upcoming years.

Edited May 27 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

One factor I had forgotten, the Augustin compensation. 

From an FFP perspective, not sure how that will impact matters. Could add up to £24.5m or maybe it has already been accounted for somehow.

Edited May 27 by Mr Popodopolous

[Rob26]

how much money do they have coming in from transfer sale payments? likely that offsets a decent chunk.

 

[chinapig]

16 minutes ago, Rob26 said:

how much money do they have coming in from transfer sale payments? likely that offsets a decent chunk.

 

Assuming you mean Leeds, Kieran Maguire says £2m. Not much help then.

[Mr Popodopolous]

5 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Assuming you mean Leeds, Kieran Maguire says £2m. Not much help then.

Plus whatever from Sinisterra, Adams and whoever goes this summer. Wages will fall again no doubt, not looked at their 2022-23 Accounts in depth.

I wouldn't have thought Cash Flow a major concern, 49ers are worth billions...like I say look at NSWE, Shahid Khan for burning money.

Edited May 27 by Mr Popodopolous

[chinapig]

19 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Plus whatever from Sinisterra, Adams and whoever goes this summer. Wages will fall again no doubt, not looked at their 2022-23 Accounts in depth.

I wouldn't have thought Cash Flow a major concern, 49ers are worth billions...like I say look at NSWE, Shahid Khan for burning money.

Sure but I took it the question was how much they are currently owed.

Summerville and Gnonto look certain to leave and who knows who else might want out? And how much of the money raised will they be able to spend? Will the owners plug a gap that could be up to £100m?

I wouldn't be relaxed if I were a Leeds fan however rich the owners are.

[Bristol Rob]

1 hour ago, chinapig said:

Sure but I took it the question was how much they are currently owed.

Summerville and Gnonto look certain to leave and who knows who else might want out? And how much of the money raised will they be able to spend? Will the owners plug a gap that could be up to £100m?

I wouldn't be relaxed if I were a Leeds fan however rich the owners are.

So we start on minus 6 (it's Leeds), which means a 10 point deduction for them in admin would only really be -4 points.

(Yes, I am being very silly before anyone takes this seriously). 

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 hours ago, chinapig said:

Sure but I took it the question was how much they are currently owed.

Summerville and Gnonto look certain to leave and who knows who else might want out? And how much of the money raised will they be able to spend? Will the owners plug a gap that could be up to £100m?

I wouldn't be relaxed if I were a Leeds fan however rich the owners are.

Up to the owners really, from a Cash Flow perspective. I would say yes potentially given Shahid Khan converted £116.5m to equity in the Fulham Promotion year. However until it happens it is difficult to say really.

Summerville and Gnonto and maybe Gray? Some of that will go to the FFP hole, perhaps a good chunk. There is no doubt they will need to cut expenditure too.

Kristensen, Wober, Llorente, Aaronson, Harrison and probably others all out on loan to higher division clubs here or in Europe..will come down to Book Value vs achievable fees of course.

45 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

So we start on minus 6 (it's Leeds), which means a 10 point deduction for them in admin would only really be -4 points.

(Yes, I am being very silly before anyone takes this seriously). 

-12 for EFL administration now.

Edited May 27 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

I expect Leicester had they stayed down would've faced a hole to 2024 and a bigger one to 2025.

Southampton potentially a hole to 2025.

The League rightly got the Fixed Assets loophole shut.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Small update by Kieran on Leeds.

If they pour in loans and or equity that issue should sort itself out.

Irrespective of that, FFP sales will be needed.

Edited May 28 by Mr Popodopolous

[Rob26]

23 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

One factor I had forgotten, the Augustin compensation. 

From an FFP perspective, not sure how that will impact matters. Could add up to £24.5m or maybe it has already been accounted for somehow.

april 2023 that was announced.

their accounts go upto 30th june 2023, so it has to be in last seasons accounts. you couldn't ignore reporting that liability, in fact they should of really had an allowance for it in the previous years accounts possibly, as either the liability for his contract or if there was a case lodged at that point for the expected outcome. I can't imagine they thought it was a case they would really win for the lads contract he has lost out on.

you also had fifa ordering them that they had to pay the original 21m fee, but they appealed it and settled on 15m (as the club that won probs wanted the money rather than having that size hole in their accounts) so there is probs some improvement on that fee on the books that would offer something back when that settlement was crystallised for the players end too. 

[Rob26]

4 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Small update by Kieran on Leeds.

If they pour in loans and or equity that issue should sort itself out.

Irrespective of that, FFP sales will be needed.

yeah if you post that information with the same reports they just dont get the same number of clicks do they :laugh:, you can save that for an update for more clicks saying it might be ok

there's more than enough meat on the bone with that squad if they need to do a few sales, gnoto and summerville are going to bail them out massivly

I also think that they bought the club (in full) in the championship, and think its a place for a club like leeds that you are not going to have to try that hard for the investors to dig a little deeper when they all got one eye on the premier league, statistically they are most likely to be the team that is in year 2 of EFL football after BPL relegation that gets promoted night season,  theres normally at least 1 team that gets promoted after they spent a year coming close and getting to grips with the league.

 

Edited May 28 by Rob26

[Rob26]

15 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I expect Leicester had they stayed down would've faced a hole to 2024 and a bigger one to 2025.

Southampton potentially a hole to 2025.

The League rightly got the Fixed Assets loophole shut.

but don't Leicester have unanswered cases.

maybe I'm wrong but...

did they not breach their final premier league season? that's one case I think BPL wanted them to answer and they used them not being part of the league any more as an excuse to ignore them

then last season was most likely a subsequent breach and they ignored the EFLs same requests as the BPL citing that they dont have to comply because were a BPL team last year so haven't broken any EFL rules or reported anything that would require additional monitoring, EFL won't know about this breach for sure until they publish the accounts, but probs has to be one

so if that's the case, there is also the chance they have a 3rd case to catch for next season also, and you also have aggravating factors if the loophole is not deemed by the courts to be a loophole and just a club defying the rules.

could be a very interesting club to watch how its handled.

leeds might also be putting together a legal case for them to answer to, we certainly got something out of derby county for denying us into the play offs, which we believe was a 3m settlement. You would imagine their case would be based on missing out on automatic promotion by 7 points (well 8 as goal difference keeps them out at 7) which has more gravity than us coming 7th - when was clear as day we wouldn't of done jack shit if we were there other than collect 2 sets of home and away match day revenue for the semis

Edited May 28 by Rob26

[Mr Popodopolous]

22 minutes ago, Rob26 said:

but don't Leicester have unanswered cases.

maybe I'm wrong but...

did they not breach their final premier league season? that's one case I think BPL wanted them to answer and they used them not being part of the league any more as an excuse to ignore them

then last season was most likely a subsequent breach and they ignored the EFLs same requests as the BPL citing that they dont have to comply because were a BPL team last year so haven't broken any EFL rules or reported anything that would require additional monitoring

so if that's the case, there is also the chance they have a 3rd case to catch for next season also, and you also have aggravating factors if the loophole is not deemed by the courts to be a loophole and just a club defying the rules.

could be a very interesting club to watch how its handled.

leeds might also be putting together a legal case for them to answer to, we certainly got something out of derby county for denying us into the play offs, which we believe was a 3m settlement. You would imagine their case would be based on missing out on automatic promotion by 7 points (well 8 as goal difference keeps them out at 7) which has more gravity than us coming 7th - when was clear as day we wouldn't of done jack shit if we were there other than collect 2 sets of home and away match day revenue for the semis

Leicester well as far as I can see..jurisdiction was an issue here.

*Yes, charged for the Period ending 2022-23.

*Appear to be in breach for the Period ending 2023-24 as it stands. Hence the Embargo in March, their forecasts are clearly for a breach of Spending Limits, have until 30th June to put it right the one to this year.

Complicated a bit by the fact 6jr EFL reset the Upper Loss limit to each prior year to the max so they need to hit £13m or below in P&S Loss to tbis year to comply.

*I'd say Leeds should certainly explore a case yes if Leicester have breached or do breach.

Remember under EFL Regulations Fixed Asset disposals cannot offset losses anymore but in the PL they possibly can.

Ha yes Pulis, we had bad memories of him..maybe he woukd have bored his way up over 3 games but really it was probably a reasonable settlement.

Now the jurisdiction issue, so far as I can see it maybe easier to pass up rather than down as PL and EFL harmonised Regs state that a case or dispute begun in one League whereby the rules are harmonised can be passed to the 2nd. The EFL have already got going on Leicester hence the Emabrgo.

A key difference is that the PL did not charge Leicester until well March this year and there seems to be less of an early warning system in the PL albeit the forecasts go in by 1st March. Whereas the EFL can act early, the PL clubs seem not to.

Maresca compensation will help Leicester for sure if that move goes through but Dewsbury-Hall fee could be the magic number.

Edited May 28 by Mr Popodopolous

[Rob26]

he wouldn't of took us up, just see the previous years play offs when we couldnt even get a decent shot vs villa over 2 games :laugh: 

On 27/05/2024 at 18:22, chinapig said:

Assuming you mean Leeds, Kieran Maguire says £2m. Not much help then.

they look like they had around 30euro millions in sales this season just gone, so a good portion of that should help, although likely they will of had 1/3 - 1/2 of it in already 

 

[Rob26]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/28172788/leicester-premier-league-points-deduction-financial-rules/

LEICESTER CITY and Everton are both at risk of receiving massive points deductions ahead of the new Premier League season.

The Foxes are currently awaiting a verdict after being charged with breaching Profit and Sustainability Rules.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Leeds chairman has clarified a couple of things. It could be in part to protect  negotiating position of course.

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/13144570/leeds-transfers-archie-gray-and-daniel-farke-future-chairman-paraag-marathe-discusses-summer-plans#:~:text=Leeds chairman Paraag Marathe sat,may do this summer...

Sounds as if P&S sales the bigger issue as set against the Cash Flow. Depending on the Augustin case and a range if other factors could be as 'low' as £20-25m or as high as £50-55m the hole in P&S terms.

57 minutes ago, Rob26 said:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/28172788/leicester-premier-league-points-deduction-financial-rules/

LEICESTER CITY and Everton are both at risk of receiving massive points deductions ahead of the new Premier League season.

The Foxes are currently awaiting a verdict after being charged with breaching Profit and Sustainability Rules.

Thanks for posting.

Bit surprised that, historic alleged offences aside for Chelsea, none of Aston Villa, Chelsea, Newcastle, Nottingham Forest are on there.

See also Bournemouth, their expenditure remains a mystery- they really wind me up, where are their sales and they won't have major Allowables in all likelihood.

Edited May 29 by Mr Popodopolous

[Rob26]

2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Leeds chairman has clarified a couple of things. It could be in part to protect  negotiating position of course.

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/13144570/leeds-transfers-archie-gray-and-daniel-farke-future-chairman-paraag-marathe-discusses-summer-plans#:~:text=Leeds chairman Paraag Marathe sat,may do this summer...

Sounds as if P&S sales the bigger issue as set against the Cash Flow. Depending on the Augustin case and a range if other factors could be as 'low' as £20-25m or as high as £50-55m the hole in P&S terms.

Thanks for posting.

Bit surprised that, historic alleged offences aside for Chelsea, none of Aston Villa, Chelsea, Newcastle, Nottingham Forest are on there.

See also Bournemouth, their expenditure remains a mystery- they really wind me up, where are their sales and they won't have major Allowables in all likelihood.

shame you never get a report of what each club claimed for ffp purposes, even if its high level figures without a breakdown, just so u know how far off everyones calcs are

 

just seen this which looks like the allowances are increased for the championship - first I had heard of this change, and mentions its for one year as well, so not sure if it will feature rolling forward or a new figure next year?

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/change-championships-financial-fair-play-29254166 

Previously, clubs have been permitted to lose no more than £39 million over a rolling three-year period, but at the annual summer get together, Championship clubs have agreed to slightly adjust the figure for one year to £41.5 million. While not a substantial change, it's still a potential help for Boro and their rivals as they plot their moves for the upcoming summer transfer window.

 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

35 minutes ago, Rob26 said:

shame you never get a report of what each club claimed for ffp purposes, even if its high level figures without a breakdown, just so u know how far off everyones calcs are

 

just seen this which looks like the allowances are increased for the championship - first I had heard of this change, and mentions its for one year as well, so not sure if it will feature rolling forward or a new figure next year?

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/change-championships-financial-fair-play-29254166 

Previously, clubs have been permitted to lose no more than £39 million over a rolling three-year period, but at the annual summer get together, Championship clubs have agreed to slightly adjust the figure for one year to £41.5 million. While not a substantial change, it's still a potential help for Boro and their rivals as they plot their moves for the upcoming summer transfer window.

 

 

Daily Mail possibly Mike Keegan mentioned it a couple of weeks ago but it has been kept under wraps in general.

It is due to replace the Covid add-back of £2.5m.

Ipswich do, Aston Villa do but thereafter is is guesswork albeit some are easier to work out than others...I believe the Academy Grant is or can be a % of total Academy expenditure.

Obviously Depreciation, often Ladies Team and Community Expenditure can be found on Companies House although the latter isn't always definitive. The Academy is often the main guesswork.

Edited May 29 by Mr Popodopolous

[Rob26]

leeds just announced sponsorship from red bull, who have at the same time taken a minority share in the club

[Mr Popodopolous]

Quick search says biggest in the history of the EFL.

I still expect they would need to sell players but it may mitigate the amounts needed, and or allow a greater % to be reinvested of said sales/cost savings.

In terms of the investment it could also help that Cash Flow hole, if there is equity it will merely take Leeds up to/maintain up at the max 3 Year Loss permitted. Selling a stake doesn't alter this.

Edited May 30 by Mr Popodopolous