The Championship FFP Thread (Merged)

[Rob26]

2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

The League and clubs seem all over the place.

Further update.

how about have sporting sanctions that are in the rules in black and white. clubs then know up front what the penalties are. 

then for non complex cases all you can really appeal on is the value level of the breach £

for example:

obviously the points and fines may be different but have bands and set them in black and white like this

5% over your FFP = 1 point deduction & £3m fine

5-10% over your FFP = 2 point dedication & £6m fine

additional points and fines etc for aggravating factors  - eg not meeting reporting deadlines, issuing misleading reports/forecasts

also have similar black and white penalties for non payment of bills etc and other financial things clubs can do wrong and get sanctioned for.

if clubs argue over the rules over what is allowable and what isn't and the rules have loopholes, then the league closes the loophole in line for the following season, it should then eventually be pretty black and white was is a breach and what isn't so it can be measured and punished by the level of the breach, within the penalties set out in the rules. 

I don't personally like how it seems like they just decide a fine and points deduction instead of it being something in black and white already.

[Mr Popodopolous]

To track progress, Accounts due by end of March and released or otherwise since.

Released Accounts to CH or full Accounts on website

Championship

Birmingham

Leicester

Premier League

Brighton

Tottenham

Those who have Released headline numbers but not yet Accounts

Championship

West Brom

Premier League

Chelsea

Crystal Palace

Fulham

Those who have Released nothing at all yet

Blackburn

Leeds

Millwall

Relegated to League One

Reading seem to have extended their due date by 3 months and there isn't an obvious loophole as such that I can see. Leapyear? 

EFL may or may not be able to see them yet, League One rules state the due date at CH.

7/12 are either US owned or with a key investor. They don't love transparency do they, Yank owned clubs. 6/8 of the remainder.

Edited April 4 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Now there are Reports that Points Deductions could remain but only for serious cases.

The Premier League appear not to know what they are doing.

To me, any breach of Spending Limits is worthy of points. The bigger the breach, the bigger the deduction. The more serious the background circs likewise the bigger the deduction.

There should be a minimum floor but I don't know if there should be a minimum ceiling. Clearly forced relegation for matters if proven such as fraud or concealment should be on the table.

Edited April 5 by Mr Popodopolous

[Corkonian]

I wonder if Burnley will succeed this season and remain in the Premier League. Vincent Kompany is doing an excellent job managing this team. Burnley this season has shown class and anger, but most of the time, they get unlucky. I have been analyzing their game via the Sport Score statistics platform, and based on the info, I see that their Burney is doing well. They are defending well and creating changes. But still, they need more consistency. I hope they will be able to remain in the PL for the next season.

Edited April 9 by Corkonian

[Mr Popodopolous]

Fulham Accounts finally available.

Would be good if someone could explain how they are deemed aligned to FFP at all times.

To 2021, 2022 and 2023, the Upper Loss Limit post Allowables was £72m due to the way it was done Covid wise. No stand alone test to 2020 for anyone due to Covid.

Fulham 6 year results, using FFL

2017-18 -£45,241,000

2018-19 -£20,180,000

2019-20 -£48,112,000

2020-21 -£93,483,000

(Average for Covid -£70,797,500).

2021-22 -£57,017,000

2022-23 -£26,057,000

Starting points- Rolling pre tax, pre adjusted including averaged losses are.

To 2021:

-£136,218,500

To 2022:

-£147,994,500

To 2023:

-£153,871,500

Remember also, that for 2022 at least, Promotion Bonuses appear to be not excluded, the Nottingham Forest case clarified this point.

Edited April 6 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Possible FFP fiddle at Fulham.

Will find the original who spotted it.

The Covid Add-backs are the Covid Add-backs. They shouldn't have spent £90m or so on wages in 2021-22 I'd say.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Found it in full.

A sceptic would query whether they have spent before it is banked. See the £90m wage bill and lack of notable sales that year in 2021-22.

Edited April 6 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Blackburn lost around £20m or so Pre Tax last year. About what I expected, sale of Wharton and one or two others this year may mean a Profit.

Edited April 9 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Not a pretty picture. Venkys and uncertainty about future funding maybe a bigger issue moving forward..selling Wharton should see them okay FFP wise for a little while longer, having a Category One Academy helps with the offsets.

However Blackburn being run questionably under the Venkys is nothing new. Sides such as Nottingham Forest losing plenty likewise. Fulham post Al-Fayed have always spent whenever possible.and we all know how pumped up Bournemouth are.

What is I would say a sign of the times, an alarming bellwether is..

*A club like Burnley. So well run for so long, at peak £80m in Cash and low low debt..factoring. Factoring Future Receipts of Transfers to get Cash Flow in now, in a Year 1 of Parachutes, of vastly reduced wages, winning the Championship and reaching an FA Cup quarter final at the Ethihad was it.

*Sheffield United yes they pushed the boat out in respect of their Promotion Year in 2019, the fact they have major Bank Loans and factoring us crazy. They had one of the lowest PL wage bills too.

*Norwich for so long a model club, post Covid losing aggregated £50.77m Pre Tax..one PL, one Championship Year 1 Parachutes.

*West Brom a solidly run club in the last couple of decades if ever there was one, going cap in hand to MSD. Albeit Lai borrowing millions and Peace another £5m scarcely helped.

All are bad bellwethers for the wider financial health IMO.

Talking of WBA, their Group Accounts at CH now, hopefully available Wednesday and Leeds ditto- both appeared on April 9th, although these things can take time.

Edited April 9 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11661/13112071/profit-and-sustainability-rules-premier-league-points-deductions-here-to-stay-for-financial-breaches

Well some good news, but the PL seem to be all over the place.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Some big underlying losses for West Brom in the last year of Parachute Payments. P&S no risk to this year but if they stay down?

[chinapig]

3 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11661/13112071/profit-and-sustainability-rules-premier-league-points-deductions-here-to-stay-for-financial-breaches

Well some good news, but the PL seem to be all over the place.

Fining a club that has overspent always seemed a ridiculous idea to me. This article makes that even clearer.

[Davefevs]

Leeds out too

[Davefevs]

Was looking at Derby’s accounts today, in the hope Bird’s fee might have been possible to deduce from post-account detail, but it’s clear that the info below…

…appears to relate to Knight and Bielik (£8m fee / 4 out of 5 years = £1.6m).  Bielik mooted at £400-500k, so kind confirms Knight lower than £2, and more like £1.6-1.7m.

[Super]

Morecambe have been deducted three points by the English Football League for failing to adhere to an agreed decision imposed in August 2023 after the club failed to pay players on time.

The League Two side were given a suspended three-point deduction at the time and that has now been activated.

The Shrimps slip from 12th to 14th and their slim play-off hopes are now all-but over.

Owner Jason Whittingham has also been fined £10,000.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Leeds Accounts.

Long story short, they seem highly likely to be fine for FFP this time around, to the present year I expect so.

They had £20m in Impairment which perhaps won't be repeated. Counts towards FFP but can assist moving forward.

Some £200m still to be Amortised as of June 2023!? 

Sacking 2 managers will be a cost that won't be repeated. See also Southampton and then the departure of Rodgers at Leicester.

We all know about Leicester and their issues but Leeds and Southampton, plus Norwich and even to some extent Hull and Watford could be of interest. 

13 minutes ago, Super said:

Morecambe have been deducted three points by the English Football League for failing to adhere to an agreed decision imposed in August 2023 after the club failed to pay players on time.

The League Two side were given a suspended three-point deduction at the time and that has now been activated.

The Shrimps slip from 12th to 14th and their slim play-off hopes are now all-but over.

Owner Jason Whittingham has also been fined £10,000.

They also have an Embargo pertaining to HMRC. Some challenges there by the sound..

Edited April 11 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Edited April 11 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

New FFP Rules.

https://theathletic.com/5407740/2024/04/11/premier-league-ffp-rules-new/

Whether it will filter down who knows, but P&S is expected to remain next year and these Rules fully from 2025-26.

85% which doesn't wholly align with UEFA and the 70% which clubs who qualify for Europe will have to adhere to.

[chinapig]

Sheffield United will be welcomed back to the Championship with a points deduction.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2024/apr/11/sheffield-united-deducted-two-points-by-efl-for-defaulting-on-payments

[Rob26]

chelsea sold hotels to themselves to stay within ffp (76m value)

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/chelsea-wages-todd-boehly-ffp-32580676

 

whats the rules on property sales these days? value and approval needs to be given by the league, so they need to be worth 76m or more for it to be allowed.

listening on talk sport they have only sold the property and have kept the revenue streams from the hotel

Edited April 16 by Rob26

[Mr Popodopolous]

Yep, seen that. Forgot to update. It may still be under investigation for Fair Value.

Millwall made A £12.212m pre tax loss so neither here nor there in terme of failing FFP. Clear basically.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Millwall I reckon when weighting in likely add-backs would need to lose £20-25m pre tax this year to be in the danger zone. It feels unlikely..

Edited April 16 by Mr Popodopolous

[Rob26]

the ffp guy saying on talksport it may not get approved, it may go against the good commercial faith rule B15 where the league can disallow it if it serves no commercial purpose other than benefitting their ffp situation

[Mr Popodopolous]

We saw this in the EFL between 2018 to 2021. Albeit this was moreso Sale and Leaseback, the exception there being Reading when they outright sold their old Training Ground and land around the Stadium in a selling spree in 2017-18 and 2018-19.

There may have been a transaction last year too but it didn't arise in time for the Business Plan and wasn't a Fixed Asset disposal but iirc Shares in a company that owned a Fixed Asset- that loophole has also been closed incidentally..their Accounts for last year they've somehow extended to the end of June deadline wise.

Edited April 16 by Mr Popodopolous

[Rob26]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

We saw this in the EFL between 2018 to 2021. Albeit this was moreso Sale and Leaseback, the exception there being Reading when they outright sold their old Training Ground and land around the Stadium in a selling spree in 2017-18 and 2018-19.

There may have been a transaction last year too but it didn't arise in time for the Business Plan and wasn't a Fixed Asset disposal but iirc Shares in a company that owned a Fixed Asset- that loophole has also been closed incidentally..their Accounts for last year they've somehow extended to the end of June deadline wise.

yeah I think clubs on the edge of FFP are pushing accounts till the end of june, so if they have just extended to then it is to be expected, as they are kicking that can down the road and will want the chance of a fire sale in june if things dont come to plan.

would be mildly amusing if this hotel sale went under B15 and they said its not allowed and they had to get their fire sale on 

[Mr Popodopolous]

14 minutes ago, Rob26 said:

yeah I think clubs on the edge of FFP are pushing accounts till the end of june, so if they have just extended to then it is to be expected, as they are kicking that can down the road and will want the chance of a fire sale in june if things dont come to plan.

would be mildly amusing if this hotel sale went under B15 and they said its not allowed and they had to get their fire sale on 

If it was somehow disallowed, the hotel sale then they would almost certainly fall to laat year.

Wow who knows how big a deficit to this, I esrismte an optimistic case scenario of £50-100m needed based on the Accounts to date, perhaps even £100-150m but if that was disallowed..wow.

[Mr Popodopolous]

If it was adjusted downward then it would depend on the gap between  PSR pass and fail and their Value and the PL hired values valuation and maybe an Independent Disciplinary Commission would have to decide.

Could be the case that Chelsea hired Valuer says x, League hired values says y. It is downgraded, but not by enough to tip them into default for the Period ending 2023 but all the same would shrink the headroom feeding into 2023-24 and 2024-25.

Equally significantly, there are other clubs who maybe close to the line..if this is waved through, then what is to stop them from exploiting this loophole ie with Stadium or Training Ground Sale and leaseback as one example.

UEFA regs it is unclear on. Not a sale and leaseback no.

Edited April 16 by Mr Popodopolous

[Rob26]

is it a loophole tho? is it not part of the rules you can sell assets in your group but it has to be fair value? the media describe it as loopholes for the clicks and sales but just thought its inter group transactions which all get fair value if deemed valid. 

the smart move on their behalf would of been doing it slightly under value - as apposed to them being greedy and relying on a value that won't stand up and will bite them in the ass later on.

 

that sun article reckons it puts them at a 63m profit for the year, but there is only so many times you can kick this can down the road tho before things tighten up and you don't have these options open to you.

 

maybe thats why I don't get mad at the clubs that find these holes in the system, part of me hopes the leagues get better and patch the holes up,

but the clubs that can't manage their ffp without doing this can only do it so many times, and it might delay them getting hit, but makes the fall a little more juicy.

Everytime teams like this do it and still fail to climb back into the champions league to balance the books, you just know when it does hit them its going to be something worth getting the popcorn out for,

these badly managed clubs often dont seem like they even know how to handle the extra money for spending they have farmed and always seems like are just constantly making things worse. 

they must be getting close to a point where they need a bit of luck and players/managers not performing actually start to turn things around, as how much more can they keep spending on game changing players? 

yet all they will probs come up with is sell players to make 10-20m of profit only for them to 5x over 5 years again at 50m-100m on one or two players, not thinking ahead they need a 10-20m profit on sales in each of the next 4 years to pay for it, and thats without paying for the rest of the players that are amortised in the accounts for even longer from past seasons

I wonder if the rules on 5 years amortisation only applies to new signings, can they reset the remaining amortisation by extending some deals back up to 5 years, or longer with extensions

Edited April 17 by Rob26

[Mr Popodopolous]

£63m Profit??

Nope, a £90m pre tax loss even if it is included at full stated Profit. Can you link to the Article in q?

Yes slightly under value would cover all bases although not too far as tax can be paid on such transactions and HMRC may want  weird.

It is not really a loophole no, is basic Accounting. Albeit something that the EFL rightly voted to adjust out 

The gamble can be one of two ways really..perhaps 3.

*Stave off the inevitable.

*Buy time to get higher on the pitch and start to make up gaps that way.

*Buy time to use it to restructure finances over a 2-3 year period so you're back on the level.

Amortisation length rule won't be backdated but any subsequent signings that they (or anyone else make) will.be assessed over a max of 5 years irrespective of the actual length that they sign for.

[Rob26]

3 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

£63m Profit??

Nope, a £90m pre tax loss even if it is included at full stated Profit. Can you link to the Article in q?

Yes slightly under value would cover all bases although not too far as tax can be paid on such transactions and HMRC may want  weird.

It is not really a loophole no, is basic Accounting. Albeit something that the EFL rightly voted to adjust out 

The gamble can be one of two ways really..perhaps 3.

*Stave off the inevitable.

*Buy time to get higher on the pitch and start to make up gaps that way.

*Buy time to use it to restructure finances over a 2-3 year period so you're back on the level.

Amortisation length rule won't be backdated but any subsequent signings that they (or anyone else make) will.be assessed over a max of 5 years irrespective of the actual length that they sign for.

I meant for FFP, I linked the article in my first post about it,

here is the part I got that from tho 

Edited April 17 by Rob26