The Championship FFP Thread (Merged)

[Mr Popodopolous]

Fulham are out.

Just the Headlines so far.

https://www.fulhamfc.com/news/2024/april/02/financial-results/

£154m in Pre Tax Losses to last season in the given period. Yet they're fine for FFP?

Promotion Bonuses not excluded as they weren't for Nottingham Forest.

Fulham

2018-19 -£20.19m

2019-20 -£48.112m (Covid year early)

2020-21 -£93.516m (Covid year full)

-£70.814m the averaged

2021-22 -£57.017m (Small Covid add-back but back to normal).

2022-23 -£26m (Post or Pre Tax Loss who knows)

Edited April 2 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Burnley lost £28m in the Promotion year.

https://www.burnleyexpress.net/sport/football/burnley-fc-post-losses-of-ps28m-in-financial-accounts-as-impact-of-premier-league-relegation-made-clear-4576498

Well clear of P&S. Shows they were wronged 9r further shows it by Everton in 2022...they should either pursue a case or look for a Settlement.

The lawsuit from Leicester and Nottingham Forest vs Everton looks quite hollow. Southampton were probably too fat back and anyway finished bottom. Leeds who knows.

However Burnley have been manifestly wronged here. £20m overspend almost to 2022, -6 the final settlement..Burnley finished 4 points off Everton.

https://media-cdn.incrowdsports.com/bc77ff86-6028-430a-9e28-2905549f58f8.pdf

£85m spent on transfer fees!!!

(yeah I know they made £87m transfer profit)

Can only guess that it might include some “this season” due to timing (July anniversary)?

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

£85m spent on transfer fees!!!

(yeah I know they made £87m transfer profit)

Can only guess that it might include some “this season” due to timing (July anniversary)?

Yep it did, according to Wiki £50 odd million between Promotion July 31st. Did a quick count anyway, I could be a bit wrong.

Ah I see the paper published the post tax which is technically correct but pre tax.

Still they should feel aggrieved about 2022 for sure.

[Mr Popodopolous]

In any case I expect Burnley and Sheffield United won't be dropping in as positive an off the field state as last time. Not so much from an FFP angle, more the external borrowings etc.

Burnley as I said before were so well run..owner or Group Companies and the Cash outflow is interesting.

£56.7m Gross in Loans to Group Undertakings??

That is Cash Flowing OUT of the Business. I wonder when or if the ownership intend to pay it back..given it was a largely leveraged buyout anyway.

Edited April 2 by Mr Popodopolous

[Markthehorn]

Burnley another club in trouble?

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Certainly not for FFP/P&S/PSR but as I mentioned a bit before the Leveraged Buyout.

Owners through a combination of Loans and the MSD leveraged buyout have taken £120-125m out of the club.

Cash Flow is now increasingly filled by Factoring and other External Loans. Certainly much more than before.

At point of sale Burnley were debt free and had net Cash of £80m.

It is criminal and yet..is obviously lawful.

Edited April 2 by Mr Popodopolous

[W-S-M Seagull]

17 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

At point of sale Burnley were debt free and had net Cash of £80m.

It is criminal and yet..is obviously lawful.

I'm rapidly falling out of love with football because of things like this.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Just now, W-S-M Seagull said:

I'm rapidly falling out of love with football because of things like this.

Love the game, but the Business..it's increasingly wild and unsavoury in many cases.

Man United can kinda absorb it.

For most, such a buyout isn't entirely without potential upside but it has to go well and go well fast. Think there have been some Regulatory changes in this area.

[Mr Popodopolous]

This is just I dunno what to say.

Effectively £124m out of the Club. Albeit repayable on demand.

Edited April 2 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Birmingham, -£50.3m or so in 2 years.

A bit below us when we still had the bulk of the Covid losses.

On the face of it their leeway seems to have been oddly decent. Bellingham money was maybe £9-10m post June 2023 but they spent quite well in summer, sacked 2 managers by just past halfway.

In this context and some countries not that major Allowables that Knighthead deal merits close scrutiny for Fair Value.

We were under all sorts of pressure in Summer 2022 albeit we did post 3 year losses of-£24m (averaged), -£28.5m and -£22.2m albeit the latter a 13 month so I don't think we can complain too much.

Edited April 3 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

According to their HKSE Accounts, they lost £4m or so in the 6 months to December 31 2023 despite and including of the Bellingham sell-on.

That is in HK$ of course but.  Despite revenue seemingly being up and despite the Bellingham deal (play and Chong) they still made a 6 month loss. Rolling losses pre tax in 2.5 years seem to be -£54-55m at this juncture.

[Mr Popodopolous]

King Power have a similarly large deal at Leicester fwiw covering ground and Training Ground but at least..

*Their ground is modern and has got, has had a strong commercial revenue.

*Gates of 30k or so for years.

*Notable on pitch achievement.

*Their stadium valuation is significantly higher than that of Birmingham.

Birmingham are a club with multiple relegation battles in the 2nd tier, gates that slid, a Stadium sale for £22m, that needed repairs, gates of 20k and below for a few years..

It covers Ground and Training Ground I think in both cases but Leicester also have a very modern Training Ground and a Cat 1 Academy.

Birmingham have neither.

Edited April 3 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

West Bromwich Albion lose £11m even inclusive of second and final year of Parachute Payments. Bit higher than I assumed but they were for so long a well-run club, yoyoed but often living within their means.

https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2024/04/03/new-west-brom-club-accounts-reveal-11million-loss-as-costs-rise/

https://www.wba.co.uk/news/albion-publish-202223-accounts

Perhaps decent sized losses are the norm now but WBA and Burnley didn't used to be among them.

Edited April 3 by Mr Popodopolous

[Rob26]

loads of cardiff stuff on swiss 

 

Quote

Forwarded this email? Subscribe here for more Cardiff City Finances 2022/23 The Cutter SWISS RAMBLE APR 3   ∙   PREVIEW     READ IN APP   Cardiff City’s 2022/23 financial results covered a season when they finished 21st in the Championship, the club’s lowest league position for over 20 years, just avoiding relegation to League One. The board understandably described the season as “a roller coaster of emotions with far more lows than highs”, though it noted with some relief that “we eventually succeeded in securing our status as a Championship club”. Nevertheless, the management team of Sabri Lamouchi and Sol Bamba left at the end of the season after their contracts were not extended with Turkish manager Erol Bulut given the opportunity to restore Cardiff’s fortunes. Profit/(Loss) 2022/23 However, it was a better season off the pitch, as Cardiff’s pre-tax loss more than halved from £26.6m to £11.4m. Revenue increased by a third from £20.0m to £26.7m, though profit from player sales dropped from £4.2m to £1.7m. In addition, operating expenses were cut by £11m (22%) from £49m to £38m, while net interest payable reduced by £0.5m to £1.9m. Cardiff’s revenue increase was almost entirely due to commercial, which more than doubled from £4.7m to £11.1m, though match day also rose £0.6m (12%) from £4.9m to £5.5m. Broadcasting was slightly lower, falling £0.3m (3%) from £10.4m to £10.1m. Other operating income also dropped £0.3m from £0.4m to £0.1m. Cardiff dramatically reduced their staff costs, as the wage bill was cut by £6.9m (24%) from £29.2m to £22.3m, while player amortisation more than halved from £7.1m to £3.4m and there was no repeat of prior year’s £0.4m player impairment. Other expenses were also down slightly by £0.4m (4%) to £9.7m. Nevertheless, even after this improvement, the fact remains that Cardiff still posted an £11.4m pre-tax loss, though this was pretty much par for the course in the Championship, where very few clubs make money. In fact, in 2022/23 to date only Watford have managed to generate a profit, and their £24m surplus was driven by high player sales following relegation. Furthermore, many clubs had far bigger losses than Cardiff, with six of them losing more than £20m last season, namely Burnley, Sheffield United, Norwich City, Birmingham City, Bristol City and QPR. Player Sales 2022/23 Cardiff’s profit from player sales decreased from £4.2m to £1.7m, as most of the departures were due to players being released, which did not generate any money, but did have the benefit of lowering the wage bill. Unsurprisingly, this was one of the smallest gains from player trading in the Championship, miles below the likes of Watford £59m, Middlesbrough £22m, Stoke City £15m and Hull City £15m...

i dont pay so someone else can post the rest 

[Mr Popodopolous]

That is an odd spike in Commercial Revenue in 2022-23 or a club on a downward trajectory or at least a relatively stagnant one.

Maybe the wage fall makes more sense but...supposedly their Player Related wages are £14-15m as per their Accounts for 2022-23 which again feels a bit low.

Their Transfers in 2022-23 

Edited April 3 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

[Mr Popodopolous]

I don't see how that equates to a £7m fall in wages. Suppose a number of high earners did leave but it seems oddly high and the inbound isn't exactly low either.

Edited April 3 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Birmingham fans are a good mix of ignorant and arrogant I must say.

Putting aside considered analysis as to whether they're within FFP or not.

It is not a new cycle it is rolling. What does that post even mean.

Clearly they aren't going bust but clueless. That £25m overhang and that will feed into this year and the £11m Transfer Profit isn't guaranteed to be repeated.

[Mr Popodopolous]

What makes me laugh is how Birmingham fans pre takeover bang on about austerity and lack of investment given a wage bill of £26-27m last season on the football side on an income of £21m or so. There is no doubt they were horribly run in general of course..  

They appeared to make a loss of £4-4.5m even with the Bellingham money in the first 6 months..the FFP thing is a puzzle. I read a while back that they could make a pre tax loss of at most £10m and perhaps less..-that is a required net improvement of £15m and some costs will have risen too.

[Rob26]

On 02/04/2024 at 22:11, Markthehorn said:

Burnley another club in trouble?

 

I think that is something you just have to take with a pinch of salt, sure I've seen similar things in our accounts where its basically highlighting that if our owners decide to throw the towel in and stop funding the club then it will go t!ts up. management fee seems a bit iffy tho, but then if they have a shortfall its them who are going to have to come to terms with financing it.

does it say anything about their loans? did they get refinanced? I know sheff utd did, and I wonder if they will be called in early due to relegation, I'm certain the payment terms for the loans the prince took out to fund the club this year may mirror their parachute payment schedule now they are going down.

amazing he hasn't been able to sell his club on promotion, given he wanted 90m from dozy in the EFL, you would think someone else would of come in and offered just slightly more while before they were rooted to the bottom, I wonder if he got greedy - as I struggle to imagine that any club in the premier league during the first half of the season would struggle to find buyers unless they were loaded with everton levels of debt, and even then there is still value in the ground etc at everton that could make that money worth swallowing as an very long term investment 

23 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

maybe the spike if its gone up is due to the insurance payout?

Edited April 4 by Rob26

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, Rob26 said:

maybe the spike if its gone up is due to the insurance payout?

That would be in this seasons accounts I would have thought but maybe yeah..such Commercial gains aren't usually classed as Commercial Revenue as such though would be listed specifically or as Exceptional Income.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Burnley and Sheffield United could be in an interesting Cash position if and when they drop?

Still can't get over Burnley a debt free club with £80m Cash in the Bank a few years ago doing Factoring.

Clearly you disregard certain stuff but at what point I wonder do the Ownership pay Burnley  back the £124m? Not sure they are in any great hurry  

[Rob26]

They are probs paying it back over the long term or when they exit with a sale.

some bournmouth stuff up on swiss ramble, i only get the free emails tho so maybe others can add the rest or they might be enough for you all to your thing :laugh:

Quote

Bournemouth Finances 2022/23

Dance Little Sister

SWISS RAMBLE APR 4   ∙   PREVIEW

READ IN APP

AFC Bournemouth’s financial results for 2022/23 covered a season when they finished fifteenth in the Premier League, thus maintaining their position in the top flight after coming up from the Championship the previous year.

After a poor start to the club’s second spell in the Premier League, head coach Scott Parker was replaced by Gary O’Neil in August 2022. However, despite managing to keep the Cherries up, O'Neil was dismissed after the season ended, with former Rayo Vallecano manager Andoni Iraola arriving in his place.

Ownership

Iraola was hired by new owner, Bill Foley, General Partner of Black Knight Football and Entertainment, who had bought Maxim Demin’s 100% stake in Bournemouth in December 2022 to end the Russian’s 11 years tenure.

Foley has some experience in running a sports club, as he also owns the Vegas Golden Knights, a successful NHL franchise. Various figures have been given for the purchase price, but it looks like it was at least £100m.

Profit/(Loss) 2022/23

Bournemouth swung from a £56m pre-tax loss to a £44m profit, an improvement of exactly £100m in the bottom line, though this was largely thanks to an exceptional £71m gain after the write-off of shareholder loans.

In addition, revenue shot up £88m from £53m to a club record £141m following promotion to the Premier League, though profit from player sales dropped from £7m to just £2m. Much of the revenue increase was eaten up by operating expenses rising £55m (50%) in the top flight.

The main driver of Bournemouth’s revenue growth was broadcasting, which almost tripled, rising £80m from £43m to £123m, due to the far more lucrative Premier League deal.

However, there was also good growth in the other revenue streams, especially commercial, which more than doubled from £5.3m to £12.6m, while match day increased £0.3m (5%) from £5.1m to £5.4m.

In addition, other operating income was up from £0.7m to £2.0m.

In order to boost their chances of surviving in the Premier League, Bournemouth invested in the squad: wages rose £39m (63%) from £61m (including hefty promotion bonus payments) to £100m, while player amortisation increased £11m (39%) from £30m to £41m.

Other expenses also grew £4m (25%) from £17m to £21m, while net interest payable was up 12% from £6.8m to £7.6m.

Bournemouth’s £44m pre-tax profit is the third best in the Premier League to date, only surpassed by Brighton £133m and Manchester City £80m, though they would have reported a £27m loss without the £71m loan write-off.

However, that was a lot better than the chunky losses posted by many other Premier League clubs. No fewer than nine clubs have lost more than £50m to date: Aston Villa £120m, Tottenham £95m, Leicester City £90m, Everton £89m, Southampton £87m, Newcastle United £73m, Nottingham Forest £67m, Wolves £67m and Arsenal £52m.

Player Sales 2022/23

Furthermore, Bournemouth’s relatively good financial result was achieved without much benefit from player sales, where the profit dropped from £7m to just £2m. ...

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Bournemouth along with Fulham interest me.

If you don't exclude as with Nottingham Forest Promotion Bonuses from the Allowables..precedent set?

Bournemouth once we exclude the ppst takeover debt waiver too, pre tax loss of around -£104m to last season in the relevant Period (2019-20 and 2020-21 average, 2021-22 and 2022-23).

Fulham again around subject to the appearance of their Accounts, -£153-154m in their relevant Period.

Both had an adjusted Upper Loss limit of -£72m post Allowables..hmm..

As for the post takeover debt write off for Bournemouth, surely an irrelevant consideration for PSR. If so it needs excluding too.

In terms of sale the higher the debt, the higher the Purchase price if so. Burnley I mean.

Calder Vale Holdings, Kettering Capital Accounts below.

At least two sets overdue per company.

These have been some of the companies in receipt of loan.

Edited April 4 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Well well..

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-13271249/Premier-League-eyeing-ABOLISHING-points-deductions-introducing-NBA-style-luxury-tax-fears-stars-leave-rules-restrict-pay-Everton-Nottingham-Forest-lost-points.html

There are a few movable parts in this, that though will be two sets of Rules you need to comply with if in UEFA competition.

There are a range of proposals included in the Article that PL clubs could be discussing.

Edited April 4 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

I don't get why a majority who are reasonably compliant or have gone through strong cost cutting measures would vote for this.

[Markthehorn]

Can they really scrap points deductions having hit two teams with them already?

Might be a few lawyers from Forest and Everton asking that..

Feel the horse has already bolted on that one.

[Mr Popodopolous]

15 minutes ago, Markthehorn said:

Can they really scrap points deductions having hit two teams with them already?

Might be a few lawyers from Forest and Everton asking that..

Feel the horse has already bolted on that one.

The League and clubs seem all over the place.

Further update.

[Mr Popodopolous]

I'm slightly puzzled by Birmingham. If their Allowable Costs are £5-6m a year at the top end and their Costs appear to have risen and they made a loss in the first 6 months of this season despite the sell on clause for Bellingham and income up a bit, where does the crowing by some of their fans of breaking their transfer record more than once this coming summer come from?

To say nothing of the T+2 rules for losses over £x.

Edited April 4 by Mr Popodopolous

[Rob26]

2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Well well..

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-13271249/Premier-League-eyeing-ABOLISHING-points-deductions-introducing-NBA-style-luxury-tax-fears-stars-leave-rules-restrict-pay-Everton-Nottingham-Forest-lost-points.html

There are a few movable parts in this, that though will be two sets of Rules you need to comply with if in UEFA competition.

There are a range of proposals included in the Article that PL clubs could be discussing.

all the regular uefa clubs are not going to be interested in this surely? as they will be bound by the uefa rules which will be tighter than this. 

the uefa system in the BPL probs wouldn't mean the talent leaves the league due to lower wages, because i'd imagine other uefa clubs that they would goto are going to be under the same restrictions, huge clubs with massive revenue based on the fan base will be able to continue to match the BPL clubs, but like now once you get past the huge clubs in the european leagues the teams below them don't have close to the same revenue from tv deals that our clubs do, so it won't really change anything for the BPL in retaining talent, its not like PSG/Real Madrid etc have an issue competing with clubs for big wages and fees. I can see it happening with the championship after a few years in where £20k+ a week talent has to go abroad because they can't improve their wages as not good enough for the prem, but in the BPL come on the level of revenue even the relegation fodder clubs have dwarfs most european clubs revenue (excluding the huge clubs who's have international fan revenue)

seems like strange ideas, on one hand they say everton and forrest points deductions were not how the original intentions of ffp were, but I always thought the intentions was so clubs don't have owners gamble with their futures and then when the money owed by the club gets too hot to handle and/or the owners get bored/the owners other businesses cause them a cash squeeze - that they dont pull funding from the club and leave it in a place where the administrators cannot save the club.

not sure how a luxury tax would even cover that, if anything in the situation of a owner cutting off cashflow that would only make things worse.

it could work if you had the luxury tax - along with money in a league controlled joint bank account to cover any club liabilities with no debt added to the clubs that wasnt pre-funded in this account would work much better. so you pay other clubs to overspend, but at the same time if you want to operate without FFP constraints you need the full balance in this account for all your current contracts and payments owed in the bank as proof of funds to cover these. these deals would then be paid through that account and if a player is sold you can then send the numbers into the league and they make that part of the account withdrawable. 

under this system i'd have every single deal that goes through the league tell them how much they need in that account and the payments for wages and fees can come from this account for them deals would allow this sort of investment and also protect the clubs involved from the owners too. whats the worst that they could do operating without ffp limits if the money was in the bank, would mean they never walk away.