The Championship FFP Thread (Merged)

[Rob26]

this looks like another good one 

https://www.audible.co.uk/pd/Done-Deal-Audiobook/1472960491?plink=mrnYWVs5YOrjT2Ea&ref=a_hp_c11_adblp13nprsx_1_2&pf_rd_p=26fabe92-0900-43e0-9bd7-c125d42c8c79&pf_rd_r=GNRQ0K77B2VRCC5FDDYY&pageLoadId=m4DCLH0J1ewZdIzx&creativeId=de6f3ddb-a383-4884-bcd0-3bd9204c79d5 

[Sir Geoff]

3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

 

May have saved themselves a window, but at the cost of contributing towards EFL costs and Arbitrators fees (won't come cheap). Full Statement and Commissions findings here.

https://www.efl.com/news/2023/june/efl-statement-cardiff-city/

[Mr Popodopolous]

Theoretically does it open a door to sign players on loan with a fee in January? That could be useful albeit a clear gaming of the system.

The £39m is the elephant in the room . I've been looking for Cardiff fan discussion on it, very hard to find. A moderator on Cardiff 606 seems comcincrf that it's been suspended due to Covid the loss limit and irs more about compliance with general financial regulations, the EFL site does not reflect this though, I see no evidence that the limit remains suspended.

Surely an Agreed fiscal plan would be inclusive of keeping within FFP limits?

Edited June 23, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[chinapig]

32 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Theoretically does it open a door to sign players on loan with a fee in January? That could be useful albeit a clear gaming of the system.

The £39m is the elephant in the room . I've been looking for Cardiff fan discussion on it, very hard to find. A moderator on Cardiff 606 seems comcincrf that it's been suspended due to Covid the loss limit and irs more about compliance with general financial regulations, the EFL site does not reflect this though, I see no evidence that the limit remains suspended.

Surely an Agreed fiscal plan would be inclusive of keeping within FFP limits?

Does it not occur to him to look at the regs on the EFL website? What he believes, or rather wants to believe, is neither here nor there.

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Does it not occur to him to look at the regs on the EFL website? What he believes, or rather wants to believe, is neither here nor there.

I agree.

Specifically about this, definitely I've looked for a while and i's so difficult to find any kinda Cardiff fan discussion on FFP implications. It's a bit of a myth among fans not just Cardiff that's gone round tbh, seen it on Twitter, that FFP was and is suspended.

Edited June 23, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[chinapig]

10 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I agree.

Specifically about this, definitely I've looked for a while and i's so difficult to find any kinda Cardiff fan discussion on FFP implications. It's a bit of a myth among fans not just Cardiff that's gone round tbh, seen it on Twitter, that FFP was and is suspended.

If FFP was suspended you'd think the EFL would have mentioned something!

Will you tell Kieran Maguire or shall I?

[Mr Popodopolous]

12 minutes ago, chinapig said:

If FFP was suspended you'd think the EFL would have mentioned something!

Will you tell Kieran Maguire or shall I?

Haha quite.

Intrigued though as to the Cardiff vow of silence on it. Their local reporters do not refer afaik, their forums again 

The odd individual post here and there but no great detail.

[chinapig]

Just now, Mr Popodopolous said:

Haha quite.

Intrigued though as to the Cardiff vow of silence on it. Their local reporters do not refer afaik, their forums again 

The odd individual post here and there but no great detail.

Ignorance is bliss!

[Mr Popodopolous]

https://theuglygame.wordpress.com/2023/06/22/cheering-on-our-own-ruin/

Sort of FFP related, sort of general football and finance when things go wrong.

I remember Derby fans or at least based on online platforms cheering on Mel Morris greatly. Sure there were chants in the ground about it after they were first charged.

Sheffield Wednesday next in line for glee when Hillsborough 'sold' in 2019.

Birmingham, dunno if there was gloating so much as defiance in 2018 when charged. Defiance and a feeling of being singled out.

Reading unsure they were as visceral as the rest, especially Derby but elements of it maybe.

I remember Reading first missed a wage payment or were late with it in April 2019. Wasn't spoken about much, that was in the days of Shaun Harvey running the League.

First late payment by Reading, the date.

https://www.getreading.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/reading-fc-players-not-paid-16207189

Edited June 23, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

This gem of a thread from the Derby forum mid April 2019 when suggestions first arose that all may not be well FFP wise a good example. I remmeber it, it sticks in the mind- there were a couple of puns based on the title but not much concern, although only a few pages in.

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/32065-trouble-ahead/

Edited June 23, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Rob26]

On 23/06/2023 at 18:13, Mr Popodopolous said:

https://theuglygame.wordpress.com/2023/06/22/cheering-on-our-own-ruin/

Sort of FFP related, sort of general football and finance when things go wrong.

I remember Derby fans or at least based on online platforms cheering on Mel Morris greatly. Sure there were chants in the ground about it after they were first charged.

Sheffield Wednesday next in line for glee when Hillsborough 'sold' in 2019.

Birmingham, dunno if there was gloating so much as defiance in 2018 when charged. Defiance and a feeling of being singled out.

Reading unsure they were as visceral as the rest, especially Derby but elements of it maybe.

I remember Reading first missed a wage payment or were late with it in April 2019. Wasn't spoken about much, that was in the days of Shaun Harvey running the League.

First late payment by Reading, the date.

https://www.getreading.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/reading-fc-players-not-paid-16207189

we got at least 3m out of suing derby county from gibson's push against them 3 teams :laugh: 

the fans are always going to get a us against the world complex when their club gets sanctioned for breaking FFP as its very very easy to say well if we have been done, what about this club and this club etc

like getting pulled over for speeding and using other people driving fast too as an excuse :laugh:

[Davefevs]

PoF pod….urghhhhh….Gashead asking a question.

Edited June 26, 2023 by Davefevs

[Rob26]

details on brum and details on some losses in the thread

[Mr Popodopolous]

Thanks that sounds right, think their aggregated likely pre tax losses across the last two seasons but before any money for the Bellinghams will be £49-50m or thereabouts. That's across 2021-22 and 2022-23.

Even with the reported money ie Bellingham £10m, Jobe £1.5m fee it wouldn't surprise me if they need an improvement of £7-8m for this season and that's before any new signings and the cost of these (wages and amortisation).

By which I mean if their baseline loss is around £25m and their FFP allowances around £5m a year.

Without the reported Bellingham x 2 money it's:

-£25m pre tax 2021-22, £5m in expected allowances and the EFL £2.5m Covid. FFP loss -£17.5m

-£24-25m pre tax 2021-22..£5m in expected allowances. FFP loss -£19-20m.

Therefore a likely FFP loss of £1.5-2.5m this season. Granted the cost base may fall but before cost base falls and revenue rises a season on season improvement of £17 5-18.5m needed ahead of 2023-24.

Maybe more like £6-7m then.

Edited June 28, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Little bit of a look at Leicester

That £40m for Maddison this is gross remember not net.

He joined Leicester in summer 2018 on a 5 year deal for £24m.

In 2020 he signed a new 4 year deal.

£40m - £4.8m.

Plus 15 pct of profit to Norwich.

That would be a further £2.4m.

Profit on Disposal £32.8m.

Barnes as an academy product would be pure profit.

Castagne Book Value is £8.6m. Anymore than that profit, less a loss.

The players who were released will undoubtedly have yielded strong wage and amortisation savings.

Otoh we don't know which season the Maddison profit will go into, and then Coady at £7.5m and Winks at £10m will bring large costs of their own.

Wages on relegation fell by 1/3 to 50 pct as per one report. Otoh TV revenue alone down £50-60m. Maybe £70m.

Last season they sold Fofana big but they had lost £92.4m the prior season which included European football and an 8th placed finish. That is a revenue another hit, another loss? That £92.4m loss included a £9-10m profit on disposal of players.

Faes in the summer and Souttar and Kristansen all added to amortisation and wages. The latter two were signed in January so if a £2.5m on a 2.5 year deal £0.5m amortisation last year and £1m this year- cost rising again.

Sacking Rodgers  he had a decent sized payoff which is more cost to add.

Edited June 28, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

Mr P

Summer 2019 - asset value of £19.2m (£4.8m amortisation)

Summer 2020 - asset value of £14.4m (new contract)

Summer 2021 - asset value of £10.8m (£3.6m amortisation new amount as contract extended previous summer)

Summer 2022 - asset value of £7.2m (£3.6m amortisation)

Summer 2023 - asset value of £3.6m (£3.6m amortisation)

Sold - Transfer profit £36.4m minus £2.4m sell-on = £34.0m

Both close enough!

[Mr Popodopolous]

Two bits of news.

Peterborough- reported £1m profit for 2021-22, their accounts due out today or next few days in practical terms

https://www.peterboroughtoday.co.uk/sport/football/peterborough-united/peterborough-united-to-show-a-healthy-profit-in-published-accounts-4202413

Sheffield Wednesday although no accounts out yet, reportedly lost only £10m in each of 2021-22 and 2022-23.

This would be landmark as it would be their lowest losses since 2015-16 if we exclude such items as the Hillsborough transaction.

This gave them a profit of £2.5m in 2017-18 and when moved go the correct year it fell to a £35m loss but meant that they posted a profit of £19m in 2018-19. That has gone now, all gone.

Otherwise it was losses underlying of:

2016-17, £20.765m

2017-18, £35.5m

2018-19, £19m

2019-20, £24.78m

2020-21, £25.084m

Aware of the Covid impact and average in the last two but thst is genuinely impressive if legitimately reduced to £10m.

Edited June 30, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Huddersfield and Sheffield United (plus Blades Leisure Limited) accounts also due out today or in the coming days.

Sheffield Wednesday and the associated companies all due at the end of July.

[!james]

what does this mean for us non financial folk?

 

 

[brad blit]

16 minutes ago, !james said:

what does this mean for us non financial folk?

 

 

Where’s the King @Davefevs when we need him……….

[Mr Popodopolous]

37 minutes ago, !james said:

what does this mean for us non financial folk?

 

 

 

37 minutes ago, !james said:

what does this mean for us non financial folk?

 

 

Basically helps to cover cash losses, write down debt or push if required our allowable losses from the lower to higher limit.

In simple terms, no equity means a club fan in a Championship 3 year cycle make pre tax adjusted losses of £15m, equity wise the first £24m is counted in 3 years which is where the £39m kicks in.

Otherwise it's something between £15m and £39m if a club owner injects some say £10m in equity in 3 years would be a £25m adjusted 3 year FFP/P&S loss.

Perhaps some combination of all 3.

[redkev]

36 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

 

Basically helps to cover cash losses, write down debt or push if required our allowable losses from the lower to higher limit.

In simple terms, no equity means a club fan in a Championship 3 year cycle make pre tax adjusted losses of £15m, equity wise the first £24m is counted in 3 years which is where the £39m kicks in.

Otherwise it's something between £15m and £39m if a club owner injects some say £10m in equity in 3 years would be a £25m adjusted 3 year FFP/P&S loss.

Perhaps some combination of all 3.

Whoosh way over my head , 

[Hxj]

13 minutes ago, redkev said:

Whoosh way over my head , 

The £22.5 million is cash that will be used to pay the bills, it will keep the lights on for a little longer.

[redkev]

14 minutes ago, Hxj said:

The £22.5 million is cash that will be used to pay the bills, it will keep the lights on for a little longer.

Thank you HJX for explaining and thank you mr lansdown , 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Peterborough 2021-22 accounts.

Profit pre tax of £800k but some £18m in income for them at the Championship level...That's surprising. Even with the Championship TV money and the inevitable rise in attendances that's surprisingly high for Peterborough? Very good commercial team?

Edited June 30, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Assuming it's a £10m straight fee and not rising to, Leicester so far in 2023-24 financial year have added £5.83m to their cost base in amortisation alone.

Winks- £10m

Coady- £7.5m.

Maddison it is unclear which season his profit has fallen into. Their accounts went until the end of June so maybe 2022-23.

Adding a 13th month means a current month of PL wages and amortisation but on the flipside removes costs from this season. Seems oddly lax of the EFL given Leicester and their possible trajectory.

Edited July 1, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

45 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Assuming it's a £10m straight fee and not rising to, Leicester so far in 2023-24 financial year have added £5.83m to their cost base in amortisation alone.

Winks- £10m

Coady- £7.5m.

Maddison it is unclear which season his profit has fallen into. Their accounts went until the end of June so maybe 2022-23.

Adding a 13th month means a current month of PL wages and amortisation but on the flipside removes costs from this season. Seems oddly lax of the EFL given Leicester and their possible trajectory.

I would imagine it’s exactly why Maddison went when he did.  £40m (£30m+ transfer profit) into 22/23.

[Mr Popodopolous]

29 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I would imagine it’s exactly why Maddison went when he did.  £40m (£30m+ transfer profit) into 22/23.

Yeah that figures. Their headroom could be shrinking further on all fronts..the EFL won't have received their Projections yet not the updated Projections from 2022-23 yet they've already spent £17.5m in the market.

It's difficult to find exactly how relegated clubs from the PL are treated under it in terms of submission dates etc. I would have thought Leicester have lost enough for monitoring requirements of some sort.

Edited July 1, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Yeah that figures. Their headroom could be shrinking further on all fronts..the EFL won't have received their Projections yet not the updated Projections from 2022-23 yet they've already spent £17.5m in the market.

It's difficult to find exactly how relegated clubs from the PL are treated under it in terms of submission dates etc. I would have thought Leicester have lost enough for monitoring requirements of some sort.

I know you know this but it’s a bit inaccurate to say they’ve spent £17.5m….the reality is they’ve “spent” circa £6m in 23/24, circa £6m in 24/25 and circa £6m in 25/26.

With circa £45m in parachute payments in 23/24, a reduced wage bill from players moving on (Maddison, Tielemans + more undoubtedly, inc Barnes probably going too), I think trying to justify a position of Leicester being in FFP trouble is pretty unlikely.

I’d imagine their headroom is increasing!!!

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

I know you know this but it’s a bit inaccurate to say they’ve spent £17.5m….the reality is they’ve “spent” circa £6m in 23/24, circa £6m in 24/25 and circa £6m in 25/26.

With circa £45m in parachute payments in 23/24, a reduced wage bill from players moving on (Maddison, Tielemans + more undoubtedly, inc Barnes probably going too), I think trying to justify a position of Leicester being in FFP trouble is pretty unlikely.

I’d imagine their headroom is increasing!!!

I was looking at it from and yes future sales will move the dial, the angle of. You may well be right.

£50m before Covid losses and FFP allowances averaged pre tax loss across 2019-20 and 2020-21.

Their attributed Covid losses alone takes it down to £50m across 2 years, £25m x 2..averaged £25m.

Then in 2021-22, £92.4m...pre tax. Think £1-2m in Covid losses.

Last year the European Revenue of £25m has dropped off, 18th from 8th is TV money reduction albeit selling Fofana and Maddison will have yielded a substantial profit.

That was A £105m loss limit

Castagne and Barnes are certainly linked with moves away this year. That could bump it up significantly. The players who left plus wage savings, yet TV money down £60m maybe as the net Parachute and EFL money - PL money.

Loss Limit £83m adjusted of which £92.4m pre tax has already been lost. Clubs usually come down with more headroom but it could be interesting. Read Winks on £40k per week too.