2nd Half Fam - A Change for Starters?

[joe jordans teeth]

6 minutes ago, The Original OTIB said:

Ironically, just after Kasey Palmer subbed off for Blackburn in same minute + Fam assisted in his goal by .... wait for it ... Weimann !

Quoting your own post 

[The Original OTIB]

1 minute ago, joe jordans teeth said:

Quoting your own post 

Is it Verboten, JJ ?

[joe jordans teeth]

6 minutes ago, The Original OTIB said:

Is it Verboten, JJ ?

First sign of nutterville 

[The Original OTIB]

10 minutes ago, joe jordans teeth said:

First sign of nutterville 

Wisconsin or West Virginia?

[1960maaan]

Firstly , I think it has a lot to do with how we are set up to play. We seem cautious when we start games/first half , and then as the game opens out we have players off the bench that use the extra space well, then we create more. Looking at the stats, we score almost 2 1/2 times more goals as a team in the 2nd half.

As for a change , I think Weimann could do a job but I think that the way Palmer holds the ball and makes space he could as well. Thing is I don't see a change any time soon unless the techies tell LJ he needs a rest. He hasn't set the world alight , but the service has been almost non existent .

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, The Original OTIB said:

Fam 10 goals 1 assist. A hand in 11 Goals.

Weimann 6 goals 4 assists. A hand in 10 Goals, and mostly out of preferred position.

Taylor 3 goals 4 assists. A hand in 7 goals with only 45% of the game time as Fam, and mostly out of preferred position.

Here’s an updated spreadsheet of goals only:

2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Hmm- Weimann with Paterson in a 4-4-1-1- Weimann has similar characteristics to Reid and now Paterson is finding form again, any merit in exploring it?

Can see similar characteristics in that potential combination...

It’s how we started the season.  Then v QPR we went Weimann and Taylor....and Pato lost form being accommodated in a 442, by being played wide.  Then Diedhiou came back.

2 hours ago, The Original OTIB said:

No need to change the 4-1-4-1, just play the ball earlier and on the ground for Taylor or Weimann to use pace.

I’ve defended Fam a fair bit because I think he does unselfish stuff that goes unnoticed.  Last night Dean (really dislike him going back to his Brentford days, but is a good CB) and Morrison (who got battered by Djúric last season alongside Fam) dominated Fam physically.  Fam made no attempt to run them away from their central positions...to drag them into the channels to create space for Palmer or Brownhill to drive into the space.  Last night was Fam at his worst, or close to it.

There are times when Dasilva (one of the 2/3 who played ok last night) gets the ball, O’Dowda comes inside (albeit directly behind the man closing down Jay) and Fam should be running the CB down the sides for an easy clip ball from Dasilva.  It rarely happens from standard possession.

Fam won one header last night and had to chase it towards the Dolman.  It was the only time I saw him run at full pelt all night.

In Fam’s poor spell earlier this season I felt i’d Rather see him play at full-tilt and blow-up after 55 minutes, than see him okay within himself just to last the 90.  Last night was that all over again.

I’m loathe to overreact in team selection terms, but LJ might need to get them in a room and explain again what effort they were putting in to get results....and that requires all eleven to be putting it in.

[Redandwhitescarf]

2 hours ago, joe jordans teeth said:

Our defence have been brilliant all season but last night we were at 6 and 7s so our forwards were the last of my worries,brum could of had 4 or 5

Think we missed Bailey last night. All the fans were moaning last week but I think he gives direction on the field thereby avoiding the 6 & 7s of last night 

[simon uk]

2 hours ago, harrys said:

Fam has been put in an absolute awful position due to our inactivity in the January window, I feel for the guy, ideally he would be on the bench for a few games and coming on for the last 30 minutes and causing a bit of havoc (as he did at WBA), the fact that him and Pack are the first names on the team sheet is helping neither of them

Totally agree, we cant afford for either of them not to be starting, its a long slog for both, particularly as neither are what you would describe as natural athletes! 

[joenaldo]

Hopefully on bench next year after we have bought an upgrade and he would be a very good option off the bench. Not sure if we have the money tho :laugh: at all

[downendcity]

5 hours ago, The Original OTIB said:

Fam gets late goals. Point being, we'd not necessarily be losing those goals but trying to add to them and have better first halves.

We could have Jimmy Greaves in his prime, but if we play like we did in the first half yesterday, it would make little difference.

It's the teams' first half performances, particularly from the off, that seems to be our problem, rather than FD's first half goalscoring record in itself.Slow starting seems to have been an issue, particularly in home games, from well before this season - I remember a while ago someone posted that LJ should use his half time team talk before kick off .

We know that LJ is quite an analytical coach and I wonder whether we start games slowly because this gives him the chance to weigh up the opposition, before seeing if he needs to make any tweaks to the way we are going to play. It is noticeable how few early goals we score in home games, and in how many home games we fail to score in the first half. It allows opposition teams to get a foothold in the game and build their confidence making our task all the harder.

I think LJ is doing a good job and is improving all the time, but my one reservation since his early days is that he does seem to concentrate too much on the opposition, and countering their strengths and strategy, rather than focussing on our strengths , playing to them and imposing our game on the opposition. When we were a side struggling to avoid relegation, then this approach would be understandable, but in our current position and the strength of squad we now have is it too negative an approach?

 

 

 

[downendcity]

30 minutes ago, joenaldo said:

Hopefully on bench next year after we have bought an upgrade and he would be a very good option off the bench. Not sure if we have the money tho at all

Then there will be loads of posts suggesting the "upgrade" is a waste of money and that they would rather have Famara playing - a bit like Palmer & Pato!

[JoeAman08]

4 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Here’s an updated spreadsheet of goals only:

It’s how we started the season.  Then v QPR we went Weimann and Taylor....and Pato lost form being accommodated in a 442, by being played wide.  Then Diedhiou came back.

I’ve defended Fam a fair bit because I think he does unselfish stuff that goes unnoticed.  Last night Dean (really dislike him going back to his Brentford days, but is a good CB) and Morrison (who got battered by Djúric last season alongside Fam) dominated Fam physically.  Fam made no attempt to run them away from their central positions...to drag them into the channels to create space for Palmer or Brownhill to drive into the space.  Last night was Fam at his worst, or close to it.

There are times when Dasilva (one of the 2/3 who played ok last night) gets the ball, O’Dowda comes inside (albeit directly behind the man closing down Jay) and Fam should be running the CB down the sides for an easy clip ball from Dasilva.  It rarely happens from standard possession.

Fam won one header last night and had to chase it towards the Dolman.  It was the only time I saw him run at full pelt all night.

In Fam’s poor spell earlier this season I felt i’d Rather see him play at full-tilt and blow-up after 55 minutes, than see him okay within himself just to last the 90.  Last night was that all over again.

I’m loathe to overreact in team selection terms, but LJ might need to get them in a room and explain again what effort they were putting in to get results....and that requires all eleven to be putting it in.

At his worst and should have come away with a brace. We were awful for 60 minutes and Fam is part of that but there just wasn’t much going on behind him. I remember one instance where he held the ball up in front of our bench for a few second holding off one of the two CBs and there was no one urgently showing for the ball. Fam ended up giving it away trying to make a pass and all you hear is how he gave the ball away again. 

I see why people don’t rate him and no he isn’t a top 10 striker in the league but he does his job well enough most nights to help us grind out results. He is just the type that will be the scapegoat when we lose or don’t play to the best of our ability. The dream would be someone like Adams but a lot of the time that is just luck. Quite confident when Fam leaves we net a small profit so not bad for a record signing. 

Taylor has been brilliant off the bench this season but in a similar way to Fam. OP said Fam has 8 second half goals and I reckon all of Taylor’s have been second half as well when we are chasing games. So don’t really like that argument. Also the one about Weimann. He had been getting a bit stagnant by the time Fam was getting to full fitness.

 We don’t tend to open games up first half. So don’t think Taylor or Weimann would have much more impact that Fam in the first half of games. Fam will never be easy on the eye but he occupies CBs. He is largely double teamed all night allowing space for others. I don’t think anyone else can bring that to the side right now. January Fam needed someone in.

Another post about Pack and Fam being the first names on the team sheet and thought he was spot on. They needed help. They needed someone who could allow them to sit for 2-3 games and freshen up and use their attributes against tiring defenses as impact subs. You mention about Fam giving his all for 55 minutes but genuinely think he is under instruction not to do so. He doesn’t need to last 90 min. He needs to last 14 x 90 plus possible playoffs. We have seen Fam give his all and go for lost causes. It cost him a good portion of last season. 

I probably sound like a Diedhiou enthusiast but I am far from it. Just don’t see the sense of slating an integral part of the side(not aimed at you @DavefevsI have just ended up rambling on). I get the discussion about other options but I just can’t see them working with how we play now. Do we just tear up how we play because we have lost 3 in a row(to 3 top 30 teams in the country I might add)? 15 games unbeaten before that and Fam was as big a part of that as anyone. 

[leadman]

taylor just dosnt play well when on at the start

[BS4 on Tour...]

15 hours ago, simon uk said:

If diedhou gets an assist thats great, but his main job is to score goals....

It’s not though....I suggested on here that our number 9 who plays up front on his own is being relied on to be our main goal scorer and was told on here that I was wrong.....I’ll leave it to @Davefevs and the others to tell you why you are incorrect....

[Mr Popodopolous]

14 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Here’s an updated spreadsheet of goals only:

It’s how we started the season.  Then v QPR we went Weimann and Taylor....and Pato lost form being accommodated in a 442, by being played wide.  Then Diedhiou came back.

I’ve defended Fam a fair bit because I think he does unselfish stuff that goes unnoticed.  Last night Dean (really dislike him going back to his Brentford days, but is a good CB) and Morrison (who got battered by Djúric last season alongside Fam) dominated Fam physically.  Fam made no attempt to run them away from their central positions...to drag them into the channels to create space for Palmer or Brownhill to drive into the space.  Last night was Fam at his worst, or close to it.

There are times when Dasilva (one of the 2/3 who played ok last night) gets the ball, O’Dowda comes inside (albeit directly behind the man closing down Jay) and Fam should be running the CB down the sides for an easy clip ball from Dasilva.  It rarely happens from standard possession.

Fam won one header last night and had to chase it towards the Dolman.  It was the only time I saw him run at full pelt all night.

In Fam’s poor spell earlier this season I felt i’d Rather see him play at full-tilt and blow-up after 55 minutes, than see him okay within himself just to last the 90.  Last night was that all over again.

I’m loathe to overreact in team selection terms, but LJ might need to get them in a room and explain again what effort they were putting in to get results....and that requires all eleven to be putting it in.

Yeah we may have started the season that way but Paterson had been in a long slow decline/stagnation going back to last season (though I thought some of the criticism on here a bit harsh). However, an in form and more confident Paterson behind Weimann could make for different possibilities IMO.

Diedhiou could be useful as an impact sub- came off the bench v both Blackburn and WBA and took his chances very well- maybe it wouldn't work with some of the tweaks needed, or would take too long to get to gel- and I'm loathe to change a pretty successful formula mid-stream, but that 4-4-1-1 did work really well last season when we used it.

[Major Isewater]

16 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

Firstly , I think it has a lot to do with how we are set up to play. We seem cautious when we start games/first half , and then as the game opens out we have players off the bench that use the extra space well, then we create more. Looking at the stats, we score almost 2 1/2 times more goals as a team in the 2nd half.

As for a change , I think Weimann could do a job but I think that the way Palmer holds the ball and makes space he could as well. Thing is I don't see a change any time soon unless the techies tell LJ he needs a rest. He hasn't set the world alight , but the service has been almost non existent .

We have learned how to control games and not to naively leave ourselves running on empty after an hour .

That has been the basis of our success so far this season.

So it would seem quite logical that if we have managed the game better than the opponents then we would have more energy left in the final moments to make a difference.