Williams and Lansbury

[Harry]

A tale of 2 central midfielders. 
 

Williams was given a more advanced role. He was rarely ‘shielding’ the back four but was a bit wider to the right and higher up than Lansbury. 
Lansbury was given the deeper role. 
 

Now, forgive me if I’m wrong, but surely those 2 are the wrong way around? 
 

Williams is a box-to-box player, but if anything he’s best deployed deeper where he makes tackles, interceptions and sprays balls forward. 
Lansbury is an attacking midfielder, preferring to operate higher up the pitch and looking for openings in tighter spaces. 
 

Don’t just take my word for it. Lansbury himself has said this. And Williams was viewed as a deeper CM when highly regarded at Everton. This 3 minute video tells you everything you need to know about Williams’ most effective role (clue - it’s not as an ‘8’ or an attacking mid role). 
 

 

[Harry]

6 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Yep. Lansbury certainly not a holding midfielder. Quite incredible Holden has brought him in as one when we have Williams, Vyner, Bakinson and Nagy who are all suited to the role.

Even more incredible that Lansbury has previous of publically criticising a former manager for playing him there

[Harry]

Dean : Hey, Henri. You know that time you played defensive midfield for Forest, and you criticised the rookie manager for playing you there. 
 

Henri : Yes. I do. It wasn’t suited to my skill set. I’m much better in advanced positions. 
 

Dean : Yeah, well. You know I’m a fantastic human being and all that....

Henri : So I hear. 
 

Dean : Well, being fantastic, I thought I’d play you as a DM. I know you had a novice manager try you there before, but I’m no novice, I’m a great human and one of the lads. 
 

Henri : WTF! 

[bemmyredjeff]

It felt like a "  I could get brownie points from the fans " type of selection to me.

[mozo]

Given the opportunity by Gregor to quash all the rumours of discontent Joe Williams says: 

I was aware of the stuff that had gone out but there's nothing to say from me really. I've just got my head down to get fit. There's nothing really to say on that. I've had a tough time and I'm just happy to be back.

Nothing long the lines of "the medical staff have been great" or even "those were just rumours".

[Davefevs]

On 07/02/2021 at 14:25, Harry said:

Even more incredible that Lansbury has previous of publically criticising a former manager for playing him there

I sat there for 20 minutes, inc the 8 minutes keeper injury, waiting for the game to settle down so I could actually see our system.  It wasn’t obvious.  I was half-expecting it to settle down and I’d see it as a narrow 442 (Semenyo and Massengo as narrow side midfielders), but it finally unraveled as a 433.  Not the usual 433 where the Semenyo and Wells play as wingers (which I despise usually) however, but them playing inside.

I’d naively expected Williams alongside Lansbury or a flat 3 inc Semenyo.  But it didn’t materialise like that.

For my comments above about playing Semenyo and Wells playing closer to Diedhiou, I thought this was exactly the game NOT to do this.  You don’t need them close to press Flint, Morrison and Nelson, because they don’t play, they just ping it.  For me, you either play a two and split 3 CBs, as I suggested pre-match, or you let them play wide (usually I’m against this), to stop the wing-backs hitting diags.  You force them to play short inside where Flint, Morrison and Nelson, who either take bad touches, or they have to ping straight balls, which ought to be easy / easier to defend.

That coupled with the weird MF3 shape didn’t help one bit.

Then by the two Cardiff WBs having room to hit diags, a combo of two of Ralls, Wilson and Ojo overloading Lansbury, whilst Ojo and Wilson created a 3v2 with Moore when the WBs aimed for him.

For whatever reason our full-backs were essentially out of the game.  Not supporting our CBs, not engaging the Cardiff WBs.  I’m not quite sure where they went, but it was Mawson giving away a stupid / needless foul (and he did trip him) in the LB spot.  My stream froze as the f/k was delivered and I’ve not had the will to watch it back.  I can only assume Mariappa was caught in no-man’s land between the LB position and marking Perry Ng when Mawson was dragged onto the touch line.

Back to our 3 man midfield, in a perverse world, I actually saw some promise in the way Lansbury fed Williams with good low angled passes, but I imagine that it would be effective if it was a flat 3, perhaps ahead of a true DM, in a kind of 4132 type set up....or even 4141, perhaps Pato and Palmer either side of Lansbury and Williams, with Bakinson / Nagy behind.  You can play Diedhiou or Wells (Wells my preferred choice) as the lone striker and you start to recreate 3 out of 4 of QPR’s Eze, Chair, Manning, Osayi-Samuel combo.

It just felt all wrong on Saturday.

[miketh2nd]

On 07/02/2021 at 09:55, Kibs said:

Whilst a lot of people were buzzing when the team was announced, it just seemed like a massive gamble to me. A bit desperate even.

After the Brentford game, I actually felt a abit of positivity. I thought we competed fairly well at times especially first half so to completely rip that up was absolutely ridiculous - almost as ridiculous as persisting with Mariappa at LB.

It would have been progress and a big boost just to see Williams and Lansbury on the bench or maybe one of them starting.

Both showed flashes of quality, but both also looked like they lacked real sharpness (expected) and also an understanding of the team and the system (also expected).

And then to take Massengo off (again) the one midfielder we had on who was actually doing okay, looked energetic and was getting forward just capped it off for me. 
 

It was probably the worst performance of the season. And that’s saying something.

I agree it was far too crazy to have played both! I mean even one each half could of been a good idea! seeing as neither have barely had any game time ALL season!

It's a shame that Holden felt the need to start both as if we were in a relegation fight and we had nothing to lose kind of mindset!

[Clutton Caveman]

On 07/02/2021 at 14:07, Harry said:

A tale of 2 central midfielders. 
 

Williams was given a more advanced role. He was rarely ‘shielding’ the back four but was a bit wider to the right and higher up than Lansbury. 
Lansbury was given the deeper role. 
 

Now, forgive me if I’m wrong, but surely those 2 are the wrong way around? 
 

Williams is a box-to-box player, but if anything he’s best deployed deeper where he makes tackles, interceptions and sprays balls forward. 
Lansbury is an attacking midfielder, preferring to operate higher up the pitch and looking for openings in tighter spaces. 
 

Don’t just take my word for it. Lansbury himself has said this. And Williams was viewed as a deeper CM when highly regarded at Everton. This 3 minute video tells you everything you need to know about Williams’ most effective role (clue - it’s not as an ‘8’ or an attacking mid role). 
 

 

Great video Oh how we could do with some of those crunching tackles now

[bcfcnick]

He certainly has some bite to his tackles and usually goes to ground when tackling so you can see how he picks up yellows when the timing is just out.  Potential yellow cards or even red cards aside, he does look like he is ideal to protect the back four so it was odd that he and Lansbury didn't swap positions from the start.  I also think he could be the temporary answer to playing left back if Dean is unwilling to play Harper there.