Derby County

[ExiledAjax]

Imagine having two failed football club takeovers on your CV. 

[chinapig]

2 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Imagine having two failed football club takeovers on your CV. 

Preston saw through him yet Quantuma took him seriously and Derby fans fell in love with him. The man has advanced tyre kicking skills for sure.

[ExiledAjax]

7 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Preston saw through him yet Quantuma took him seriously and Derby fans fell in love with him. The man has advanced tyre kicking skills for sure.

Wasn't the PNE thing that he couldn't write, or maybe couldn't understand why he needed to write, a business plan?

Edited June 10, 2022 by ExiledAjax

[chinapig]

3 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Wasn't the PNE thing that he couldn't write, or maybe couldn't understand why he needed to write, a business plan?

It was that he wanted them to write his business plan apparently plus they weren't convinced he could deliver the money.

[Monkeh]

I generally think they are going to get liquidated 

[REDOXO]

15 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

I generally think they are going to get liquidated 

Right now hat is the best result for Q as my understanding is they’ll be right at the front of the creditors list. However as DCFC have little in the way of saleable assets perhaps not. 

[BTRFTG]

Forest's official tweet at 5pm tonight - shithousery of the first water but made me laugh.

[exAtyeoMax]

They are saying that Q refuse to contemplate selling to MA…would they really let DCFC die?

[chinapig]

11 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

They are saying that Q refuse to contemplate selling to MA…would they really let DCFC die?

Allegedly Ashley is refusing to pay their fees. Anybody would think they hadn't earned them with the brilliant job they've done.

[chinapig]

From John Percy in the Telegraph. Note the detail of Quantuma's behaviour:

Derby County have been plunged deeper into crisis after Chris Kirchner’s takeover bid collapsed.

Quantuma, the Derby administrators, are under increasing pressure after Kirchner failed to meet a 5pm deadline to complete a deal.

The English Football League are understood to be furious and an already dire situation is now critical with the fixtures for the new season to be announced later this month.

EFL bosses will demand that Derby provide evidence they can start and complete the 2022/23 campaign, while payroll for staff and players is also required for June, and with Kirchner’s takeover bid disintegrating the club is racing against time to find a buyer.

Former Derby chairman Andy Appleby remains interested in a purchase, but is desperately seeking financial backing after Richard Riley, an American businessman, pulled out in January. Riley is now on the board at Queens Park Rangers.

Ex-Newcastle owner Mike Ashley is still determined to complete a buyout but negotiations with Quantuma have been fractious.

Steve Morgan, the former Wolves chairman, has been linked with a bid, though it is understood his interest waned after Derby’s relegation to League One.

Kirchner could still remain a contender, though Quantuma are under serious scrutiny after naming him as preferred bidder in April. Kirchner had provided proof of funds to the EFL but failed to transfer the money, raising questions over whether Quantuma carried out proper due diligence.

It is also alleged that Quantuma agreed a deal with Appleby’s consortium in January, but then mysteriously withdrew from talks.

Appleby had thrashed out a deal which included the purchase of Pride Park stadium, while Morgan had also smoothed over the legal dispute with Middlesbrough chairman Steve Gibson.

There are other allegations that Quantuma are declining to enter dialogue with Ashley after a stormy meeting earlier this year, in which the billionaire was heavily critical of their methods and ethics. Sources claim he had also agreed a deal with Mel Morris, the former Derby owner, over the stadium in December.

Now Quantuma are locked in a battle to find a buyer, with pre-season training at Derby to start in a fortnight.

Wayne Rooney, the manager, is facing further problems with his assistant, Liam Rosenior, in the frame to take over at Blackpool.

Rosenior has been interviewed by the Championship club after the departure of Neil Critchley and is a strong contender for the post.

Derby have been in administration since September, with only five senior players currently contracted to the club.

Edited June 10, 2022 by chinapig

[ExiledAjax]

1 minute ago, chinapig said:

From John Percy in the Telegraph:

Derby County have been plunged deeper into crisis after Chris Kirchner’s takeover bid collapsed.

Quantuma, the Derby administrators, are under increasing pressure after Kirchner failed to meet a 5pm deadline to complete a deal.

The English Football League are understood to be furious and an already dire situation is now critical with the fixtures for the new season to be announced later this month.

EFL bosses will demand that Derby provide evidence they can start and complete the 2022/23 campaign, while payroll for staff and players is also required for June, and with Kirchner’s takeover bid disintegrating the club is racing against time to find a buyer.

Former Derby chairman Andy Appleby remains interested in a purchase, but is desperately seeking financial backing after Richard Riley, an American businessman, pulled out in January. Riley is now on the board at Queens Park Rangers.

Ex-Newcastle owner Mike Ashley is still determined to complete a buyout but negotiations with Quantuma have been fractious.

Steve Morgan, the former Wolves chairman, has been linked with a bid, though it is understood his interest waned after Derby’s relegation to League One.

Kirchner could still remain a contender, though Quantuma are under serious scrutiny after naming him as preferred bidder in April. Kirchner had provided proof of funds to the EFL but failed to transfer the money, raising questions over whether Quantuma carried out proper due diligence.

It is also alleged that Quantuma agreed a deal with Appleby’s consortium in January, but then mysteriously withdrew from talks.

Appleby had thrashed out a deal which included the purchase of Pride Park stadium, while Morgan had also smoothed over the legal dispute with Middlesbrough chairman Steve Gibson.

There are other allegations that Quantuma are declining to enter dialogue with Ashley after a stormy meeting earlier this year, in which the billionaire was heavily critical of their methods and ethics. Sources claim he had also agreed a deal with Mel Morris, the former Derby owner, over the stadium in December.

Now Quantuma are locked in a battle to find a buyer, with pre-season training at Derby to start in a fortnight.

Wayne Rooney, the manager, is facing further problems with his assistant, Liam Rosenior, in the frame to take over at Blackpool.

Rosenior has been interviewed by the Championship club after the departure of Neil Critchley and is a strong contender for the post.

Derby have been in administration since September, with only five senior players currently contracted to the club.

Q are now just that bloke outside Oceana at 3am. 3 strawpedos, 7 pints, and 6 jagers down. His mates have all disappeared, the girl he was talking to has just got in a taxi with her mates, it's cold and he dropped his kebab. He will literally go with anyone that looks at him.

[chinapig]

10 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Q are now just that bloke outside Oceana at 3am. 3 strawpedos, 7 pints, and 6 jagers down. His mates have all disappeared, the girl he was talking to has just got in a taxi with her mates, it's cold and he dropped his kebab. He will literally go with anyone that looks at him.

Gee thanks for triggering flashbacks to my youth. Though in my day it was the Top Rank.

[ExiledAjax]

Just now, chinapig said:

Gee thanks for triggering flashbacks to my youth. Though in my day it was the Top Rank.

I've even worse news I'm afraid. In this nightmarish imagined metaphor...it's Mike Ashley who's eyeing you up from the taxi rank.

Yes, he has got 4 shirt buttons undone.

Yes, that is a gold chain round his neck.

Yes, he has passed his AML checks.

Now. Off you pop.

[Betty Swallocks]

I can only imagine the mental gymnastics being performed in the heads of Derby fans this evening, trying to find ways in which they can blame the EFL, Steve Gibson & Wycombe for these latest developments. 

[awbb]

As someone who has followed the story with a a growing opinion that Q are basically chancers it’s hard not to think that Mike Ashley, as truculent and difficult as he obviously is, is probably right, if the above story is true!

Bearing in mind the situation, if I were a Derby fan I would be furious that Ashley was being blocked. That man knows how to run a football club within its means, after all, as much as he was criticised for it.

[chinapig]

6 minutes ago, Betty Swallocks said:

I can only imagine the mental gymnastics being performed in the heads of Derby fans this evening, trying to find ways in which they can blame the EFL, Steve Gibson & Wycombe for these latest developments. 

Actually the same people who were cheering on Morris for dragging things out and having the EFL on strings are now criticising them for being too slow. They're not big on self awareness.

And now one of them is saying the EFL was happy with Morris' "novel" accounting methods until Kieran Maguire forced them to change their mind.

You couldn't make it up. Except of course that they do.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Seeing the EFL are "furious" in a couple of articles. Times article and follow-up referred to this and now Percy...patience must be wearing a bit thin by now, there are 71 other clubs to consider and their interests to uphold too.

4 minutes ago, awbb said:

As someone who has followed the story with a a growing opinion that Q are basically chancers it’s hard not to think that Mike Ashley, as truculent and difficult as he obviously is, is probably right, if the above story is true!

Bearing in mind the situation, if I were a Derby fan I would be furious that Ashley was being blocked. That man knows how to run a football club within its means, after all, as much as he was criticised for it.

While I mostly do agree, would Ashley's offer have been the best deal for the creditors- Quantuma IIRC are legally bound by this.

[awbb]

3 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

While I mostly do agree, would Ashley's offer have been the best deal for the creditors- Quantuma IIRC are legally bound by this.

Knowing Ashley (albeit only the persona portrayed by the media) it won’t be generous!

[semblar]

13 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Seeing the EFL are "furious" in a couple of articles. Times article and follow-up referred to this and now Percy...patience must be wearing a bit thin by now, there are 71 other clubs to consider and their interests to uphold too.

While I mostly do agree, would Ashley's offer have been the best deal for the creditors- Quantuma IIRC are legally bound by this.

Absolutely - and they are also bound to find the best possible deal for the creditors, even if that is liquidation above the MA offer

 

Quote

What Is The Key Duty Of An Administrator?

The key duty of an Administrator is to act in the best interest of creditors as a whole.

That means that an Administrator’s duty is not to act in the best interest of individual creditors if their position does not match the creditors as a whole.

General Duties Of An Administrator

In general, an Administrator has the following duties:

• to act fairly and honourably
• to manage the company’s affairs as set out in the Administrator’s Proposals document
• to act quickly and efficiently
• to act with reasonable care and skill of an ordinary skilled and careful insolvency practitioner
• to take reasonable care to obtain the best price obtainable for the company assets
• to act with purpose and adhere to relevant considerations when performing functions
• to act with consideration and loyalty to company creditors

nothing explicit in that about protecting the heritage of the club, much as many would think it should be in there somewhere.. possibly something in "relevant considerations"?

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 minute ago, awbb said:

Knowing Ashley (albeit only the persona portrayed by the media) it won’t be generous!

It's an interesting one tbh- do tend to agree but last year there were reports of a £50m bid- including stadium and HMRC, MSD debt was lower at this juncture- but if it was then it certainly wouldn't be now!

[BTRFTG]

Ok. CK is most likely a fraud, or chancer, or liar, but there is a most delicious scenario that the bloke Derby fans are slating to the hills tonight for not meeting the deadline might, just might, in the next few hours prove he has the ability to take them over then, having noted their diatribe,  decided not to bother.

That would be a delicious twist worthy of 'Tales Of The Unexpected' or 'Inside No9'. Probably won't happen, but with a Keeganesque fervour; boy, would I love it...boy would I love it.....

[BTRFTG]

38 minutes ago, awbb said:

Knowing Ashley (albeit only the persona portrayed by the media) it won’t be generous!

Not sure if you're a follower of 'Price of Football' but for years now a very considered and reasoned take from football's favourite accountant (and fan) has been wholly in favour of Ashley's financial acumen, albeit his recognition that runs in opposition to fans irrational and unreasonable demands.

Ashley acquired a Newcastle shipping £250k per week. A Newcastle with but a few months to live. A Newcastle with collateral, massive fanbase and huge potential. Didn't take Ashley long to trim outgoings, consolidate the short term (albeit with limited ambition,) and after Spurs deliver the best financial stability in The Premier for year after year. From an accounting perspective he worked miracles at and for Newcastle United. Fans clearly didn't think that meritorious.

So before accusing Ashley of looking for a cheap asset striping exploit ask oneself the difference between the Newcastle he purchased and the Derby on offer? Unless there's collateral to underpin the whole shebang Derby is a non-starter and in simple terms that involves Morris paying off MSD and gifting Ashley's buyout the stadium. That's why, all other debt aside, this is Ashley pulling Morris' pants down and asking him, politely, to bend over and grit his teeth. It's nothing to do with getting things on the cheap. It's business. It's personal.

[chinapig]

John Percy seems to be the go to guy. Check out the latest on Quantuma:

As of tonight: Andy Appleby group have contacted Quantuma “multiple times” this week with no response. Mike Ashley group, through Lee Charnley, are also saying the same. Mindboggling

[Davefevs]

20 minutes ago, chinapig said:

John Percy seems to be the go to guy. Check out the latest on Quantuma:

As of tonight: Andy Appleby group have contacted Quantuma “multiple times” this week with no response. Mike Ashley group, through Lee Charnley, are also saying the same. Mindboggling

Quantuma - Latin for “smile and invoice”

[BTRFTG]

29 minutes ago, chinapig said:

John Percy seems to be the go to guy. Check out the latest on Quantuma:

As of tonight: Andy Appleby group have contacted Quantuma “multiple times” this week with no response. Mike Ashley group, through Lee Charnley, are also saying the same. Mindboggling

Andy Appleby? Any relation to the bloke who sold to and acted as Chairman initially for, er, Mel Morris?

[chinapig]

Just now, BTRFTG said:

Andy Appleby? Any relation to the bloke who sold to and acted as Chairman initially for, er, Mel Morris?

The very same!

[Mr Popodopolous]

Bit of revisionism here although tbh a range of views.

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/39808-if-quantuma-hadnt-accepted-the-extra-9-points/

Apparently a good lawyer would have got the -9 overturned and had a crack at reducing the -12 too!

Non compliant accounts meant the EFL could do as they see fit to an extent- that combined with Insolvency...well see the Professional Standing rule. What some of them perhaps fail to grasp is that one or more of the following would have been a goer- btw the IDC ruled x but the LAP is the Upper Tribunal and their judgement falling against Derby meant they were in deep trouble.

What this poster chooses not to grasp- and the kind of revisionism in and around the thread really does wear sympathy somewhat- is that their overall strategic position may have been worse still. The EFL's best bet in the event of a fight would have been to drag it out as long and painfully as possible- I'd have done that. Buyer would not touch the club with a barge pole while that was dragging!

The judgment by the LAP- which sits above the IDC in the pecking order- meant that Derby's accounts were officially non-compliant and the EFL could do what they did, ie Professional Standing and so on. Why would the Upper Tribunal uphold some kind of dismissal by the IDC for the -9...when they were the ones who deemed Derby guilty last May!

Anyway yes, options for the EFL- who pays the legal fees for Derby btw, how does that work- a club losing money and reliant on high interest loans just to keep the lights on ie the MSD loans...

1. It is eminently possible that as a result of the complexities and fresh charges, the case may still be ongoing now- which would mean that Derby would be nowhere near a takeover.
2. Goes without saying that a new owner would inherit the shitstorm if they manage to hold their nerve and dispute- if a takeover and remaining an EFL member was even possible in those circs.
3. Obviously the Professional Standing Embargo remains in full force while the case is ongoing and yes any academy player coming on for a late sub appearance counts towards that 23 from memory?
4. Or the EFL can go after them with 1 Hearing per breach- that would be 3 and who knows how long that would take- with point 3 still in full force.

Would Derby even still be standing had they fought it? Plus there is always the small matter of the notice of withdrawal of Membership for being insolvent- what a Pyrrhic victory that could have been. Think that is 90 days.

That poster seems to know a fair bit about accounting and finance- assume he is one, but I don't see how the idea works in reality.

Edited June 11, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

As for Derby and their situation a few random not terribly structured thoughts...

• Mel Morris is for the most part to blame.
• Mr. Kirchner well what can we say.
• Quantuma get plenty of flak and rightly so but in slight defence they were dealt an awful hand- but Mike Ashley fee issue notwithstanding surely seems the best bet?
• Flak that the EFL have been receiving is quite unfair for the most part- indeed rather a lot of fans of other clubs at this level think there has been excessive leniency if you read social media and forums. For the most part they have been seeking to uphold their regulations.

Edited June 11, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[chinapig]

32 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Apparently a good lawyer would have got the -9 overturned and had a crack at reducing the -12 too!

According to Kieran Maguire Quantuma spent £145k on legal advice. Clearly the lawyers advised against an appeal.

Presumably they pointed out that "we're Derby County so we should get special treatment" was unlikely to be the basis of a successful appeal.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

52 minutes ago, chinapig said:

According to Kieran Maguire Quantuma spent £145k on legal advice. Clearly the lawyers advised against an appeal.

Presumably they pointed out that "we're Derby County so we should get special treatment" was unlikely to be the basis of a successful appeal.

 

Thanks. The only other option I guess was to take the LAP decision to a higher court- if possible. Then however, this would have breached their terms of membership and should have meant suspension at best for the duration of the legal challenge...which given how long these things take is surely a fast track to liquidation.

The other bit I forgot to add in my main post is that an EFL statement in mid September 2021 basically said there was no upper time limit to the process- so Derby could have been in perpetual limbo had they fought on.

Edited June 11, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous