Hxj Posted September 23, 2021 Report Share Posted September 23, 2021 2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said: We say this but the administrators were very bullish today, from snippets that I've read. No player sales intended in Jan. In fact, the hope is to strengthen the team. They would like Pride Park and Moor Farm returned to the club's ownership. Wages? We are confident of borrowing cash to help to fund it. They did though from what I've read, concede that -12 likely wouldn't be the end of the deductions. Most of the press conference is available on BBC Sounds - Ian Skye - Steve Jordan sits in (23/09/2021) - BBC Sounds it starts just after 11 am. My views are: 1. This was part of a PR campaign. 2. No one has expressed firm interest. 3. It would never be good to admit that you have to sell players in January. 4. Funding the £5 million or so required to get the club to January is not guaranteed. 5. In fact nothing is guaranteed. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted September 23, 2021 Report Share Posted September 23, 2021 11 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said: I don't think it is this. I think it is sloppy wording on the BBC's part. There's no doubt the Derby/Rooney/32Red deal was a bit grubby, perhaps 'creative', but it would seem that it wasn't the case that Rooney's wages were being paid directly by 32Red. This article - https://www.sportspromedia.com/interviews/why-32red-is-betting-big-on-wayne-rooney/ - sets it out quite well, complete with ludicrously worded quotes from people in the know. The key line is: "As for claims 32Red is making a mockery of financial fair play (FFP) by paying Rooney’s weekly wages, reported to be around UK£90,000 (US$109,000) a week? “To be clear, 32Red did not sign Wayne Rooney and 32Red is not paying Wayne Rooney’s wages. Our agreement is solely with Derby County,” Banbury [Neil Banbury, 32Red’s general manager] asserts. “Our commercial agreement with Derby is sensitive, but it is a significant additional investment on top of our original sponsorship agreement with the club.”" Apparently the signing did lead to the bigger sponsorship deal, Banbury admits that when he says "“When Derby told us they were signing Rooney, we again decided to deepen our relationship with the club."" but I'd be amazed if even Morris et al were stupid enough to have a concrete flow of cash from 32Red to Rooney. As I said, it's shady, 'creative', and I certainly would not want Bristol City to do similar...but from what I know, I doubt it is something Derby can be punished for as part of all that they are currently going through. Agree, was my understanding too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted September 23, 2021 Report Share Posted September 23, 2021 5 minutes ago, Hxj said: Most of the press conference is available on BBC Sounds - Ian Skye - Steve Jordan sits in (23/09/2021) - BBC Sounds it starts just after 11 am. My views are: 1. This was part of a PR campaign. 2. No one has expressed firm interest. 3. It would never be good to admit that you have to sell players in January. 4. Funding the £5 million or so required to get the club to January is not guaranteed. 5. In fact nothing is guaranteed. Just after the Jean Genie - he’s outrageous, he screams and he bawls - could be singing about Mel Morris!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ska Junkie Posted September 23, 2021 Report Share Posted September 23, 2021 2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said: We say this but the administrators were very bullish today, from snippets that I've read. No player sales intended in Jan. In fact, the hope is to strengthen the team. They would like Pride Park and Moor Farm returned to the club's ownership. Wages? We are confident of borrowing cash to help to fund it. They did though from what I've read, concede that -12 likely wouldn't be the end of the deductions. How on earth can a business in administration borrow money? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chinapig Posted September 23, 2021 Report Share Posted September 23, 2021 Good section with Kieran Maguire in todays' Football Weekly Extra podcast: https://www.theguardian.com/football/audio/2021/sep/23/derby-county-carabao-cup-football-weekly-extra-podcast 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted September 23, 2021 Report Share Posted September 23, 2021 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Ska Junkie said: How on earth can a business in administration borrow money? Agreed, elements of PR probably but yeah- just going on snippets I read- most of those claims I picked up seem fanciful thusfar. Edited September 23, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTRFTG Posted September 23, 2021 Report Share Posted September 23, 2021 2 hours ago, Hxj said: He's on Companies House as the owner, that will do for me Depends which funding - if the stadium purchase there appears to have been no funding - it was left outstanding at June 2018. If it has been funded by Morris now then I still don't get how the club ended up in Administration. It was MSD who legally put the club into Administration, so they are still owed money by either the Stadium Group or the Football Group. As to ownership, the only thing I could see was the Freehold Stadium is owned by Gellaw Newco 202 (102 having been wound up.) As I highlighted in that company's incorporation there is but one share and Director, Melvyn Morris, but it doesn't automatically follow he's the beneficial owner, he simply has power to run that company. Now you'll have noted there are two charges against the assets held by that company, one from MSD for the operational cashflow we know about, there's also the mysterious 'Floating Charge' in respect of RAMS INVESTMENT LTD. The charge (for intangibles as well as fixed assets,) is listed in the financial documents but as these haven't been filed it's value is, well, you tell me? Now the directors of that company are names with which I'm unfamiliar and Melvyn Morris isn't one of them. My understanding is the money for the initial and subsequent development of Pride Park (NB there were other divested commercial elements at play,) was partly Morris but also mates of his, which may explain the floating charge via RAMS INVESTMENT. The MSD charge is later I think and was for cashflow to stop the shebang folding. Could be the Floating Charge is minimal and exists wholly to make things difficult should it be necessary to divvy up assets, the problem as you know is there are so many entities few of whom have lately published accounts, it'll take a forensic accountant to go through all company records (if there are any,) to find out what's been going on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted September 23, 2021 Report Share Posted September 23, 2021 (edited) 10 hours ago, Hxj said: All agreed. Unlikely. The stadium sale was in 2018. The MSD Charges were put in place in August and November 2020. So it looks like the MSD money was used to fund cash flow across all entities not for payment for the stadium. It may not have paid anything. Exactly. Along with Cocu and Keogh and the late payment of transfer fees. The alternative is that they have burnt through £81 million cash in roughly three years. I could have paid off all the debts and still had a great time with the remaining £20 million or so .......... They seem to have it both ways- their own- audited accounts do show that 2018 Derby Accounts- Cash Flow 2018 Sevco 5112 Accounts- Cash Flow Seems like they do burn through a lot of cash...yet. 2018 Derby Accounts- Debtors Seems to be no reference to it in Sevco 5112 Limited debtors- guess it was the club specifically who 'sold' the ground. Obviously Amortisation and Depreciation are non-cash expenses but have to wonder the cash position in the following years!! A lot of cash though, the two years before Covid as well. The club can't have been paid though, surely... SwissRamble- yes they do seem to burn through a lot of cash or have done under Mel... Edited September 23, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hxj Posted September 23, 2021 Report Share Posted September 23, 2021 1 minute ago, BTRFTG said: As to ownership I got my information from the 'PSC' tab on Companies House. Rams Investment is the vehicle used by Gabay, more interesting than Morris , he's facing prison time for a German tax fraud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTRFTG Posted September 23, 2021 Report Share Posted September 23, 2021 2 minutes ago, Hxj said: I got my information from the 'PSC' tab on Companies House. Rams Investment is the vehicle used by Gabay, more interesting than Morris , he's facing prison time for a German tax fraud. Ah, so any idea the scale of the charge and any of those blank boxes showing what it was for and what it might take to remove it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTRFTG Posted September 23, 2021 Report Share Posted September 23, 2021 9 minutes ago, Hxj said: I got my information from the 'PSC' tab on Companies House. Rams Investment is the vehicle used by Gabay, more interesting than Morris , he's facing prison time for a German tax fraud. Just looked it up. So for all we know Melvyn Morris, whilst appearing on paper to own the stadium, might actually own little more than a £3k liability beyond the over-inflated value of that asset on Gellaw's accounts, all residual value being absorbed by the MSD and Gabay Charges? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hxj Posted September 23, 2021 Report Share Posted September 23, 2021 17 minutes ago, BTRFTG said: so any idea the scale of the charge It is rumoured that there is nothing outstanding, but it hasn't been removed which doesn't make sense. 7 minutes ago, BTRFTG said: So for all we know Melvyn Morris, whilst appearing on paper to own the stadium, might actually own little more than a £3k liability beyond the over-inflated value of that asset on Gellaw's accounts, all residual value being absorbed by the MSD and Gabay Charges? Pedant alert on Morris owns a company worth nothing which happens to own the stadium and have debts which can fairly be assumed to exceed the realisable value of the stadium. The stadium is also subject to a direct charge from MSD so cannot be transferred without that debt being repaid or MSD agreeing otherwise. Pedant alert off 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chinapig Posted September 23, 2021 Report Share Posted September 23, 2021 I see Wayne Rooney's Derby County's Wayne Rooney is not happy with Honest Mel Morris, former hero of Derby fans throughout the land https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/sep/23/derbys-wayne-rooney-hits-out-at-disrespectful-former-owner-mel-morris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted September 23, 2021 Report Share Posted September 23, 2021 1 hour ago, ExiledAjax said: I don't think it is this. I think it is sloppy wording on the BBC's part. There's no doubt the Derby/Rooney/32Red deal was a bit grubby, perhaps 'creative', but it would seem that it wasn't the case that Rooney's wages were being paid directly by 32Red. This article - https://www.sportspromedia.com/interviews/why-32red-is-betting-big-on-wayne-rooney/ - sets it out quite well, complete with ludicrously worded quotes from people in the know. The key line is: "As for claims 32Red is making a mockery of financial fair play (FFP) by paying Rooney’s weekly wages, reported to be around UK£90,000 (US$109,000) a week? “To be clear, 32Red did not sign Wayne Rooney and 32Red is not paying Wayne Rooney’s wages. Our agreement is solely with Derby County,” Banbury [Neil Banbury, 32Red’s general manager] asserts. “Our commercial agreement with Derby is sensitive, but it is a significant additional investment on top of our original sponsorship agreement with the club.”" Apparently the signing did lead to the bigger sponsorship deal, Banbury admits that when he says "“When Derby told us they were signing Rooney, we again decided to deepen our relationship with the club."" but I'd be amazed if even Morris et al were stupid enough to have a concrete flow of cash from 32Red to Rooney. As I said, it's shady, 'creative', and I certainly would not want Bristol City to do similar...but from what I know, I doubt it is something Derby can be punished for as part of all that they are currently going through. Just listening to it…..more than one media person suggesting Rooney paid by more than just Derby! 1 hour ago, Ska Junkie said: How on earth can a business in administration borrow money? because selling it as a football club still in the league might return a better result than just winding it up I guess. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledAjax Posted September 23, 2021 Report Share Posted September 23, 2021 4 minutes ago, Davefevs said: Just listening to it…..more than one media person suggesting Rooney paid by more than just Derby The Guardian podcast? I've not got to it yet. I mean if he was being paid in more "creative" ways then the book should be thrown at them with the full force of the law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hxj Posted September 23, 2021 Report Share Posted September 23, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Ska Junkie said: How on earth can a business in administration borrow money? It is never impossible to borrow money - the lender will be looking to make a return to cover the risk - I have a contact who can source funds for a business with no security and a rate of around 4% a month plus fees ... Edited September 23, 2021 by Hxj 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chinapig Posted September 23, 2021 Report Share Posted September 23, 2021 7 minutes ago, Davefevs said: because selling it as a football club still in the league might return a better result than just winding it up I guess. But a high risk you will never get your money back given the existing level of debt? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ska Junkie Posted September 23, 2021 Report Share Posted September 23, 2021 Just now, Hxj said: It is never impossible to borrow money - the lender will be looking to make a return to cover the risk - I have a contact who can source funds for a business with no security and a rate of around 3% a month Thanks Hxj. Surely it would be one hell of a risk to lend Derby money at the moment? Why would any financial institution be remotely interested? I know if an individual enters an IVA, it's prohibitively expensive to borrow money, if you could borrow any at all, so the 3% mention seems madness with the associated risks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted September 23, 2021 Report Share Posted September 23, 2021 7 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said: The Guardian podcast? I've not got to it yet. I mean if he was being paid in more "creative" ways then the book should be thrown at them with the full force of the law. BBC Radio Derby Adminstrators Conference…. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTRFTG Posted September 23, 2021 Report Share Posted September 23, 2021 8 minutes ago, Hxj said: It is rumoured that there is nothing outstanding, but it hasn't been removed which doesn't make sense. Morris owns a company worth nothing Any idea what breakdown of the creditors falling within one year are, in particular the 'trade' creditors. I think those were listed at £7m but strikes me as high if that is rates/maintenance. Might the supposed stadium costs also have included disguised, advance elements of 'lease income' that are paid back to, say, MSD? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hxj Posted September 23, 2021 Report Share Posted September 23, 2021 1 minute ago, Ska Junkie said: Surely it would be one hell of a risk to lend Derby money at the moment? Why would any financial institution be remotely interested? It works like this: You want to borrow £100,000 cash for a year I lend you £180,000 and charge you fees and interest of £80,000 in advance. You need to pay me £180,000 within a year, or my debt collectors pay you a visit, failing that they pay your family a visit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted September 23, 2021 Report Share Posted September 23, 2021 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted September 23, 2021 Report Share Posted September 23, 2021 (edited) Yep, Kieran first flagged it in Spring 2018- inclusion of all the revenue from the subsidaries namely Club DCFC Limited, Derby County FC Academy Limited and Stadia DCFC Limited in the club accounts but all the costs in Sevco 5112 Limited- and I guess the costs might have been hidden in those slimmed down accounts too. Plus pf course the bit about 110 staff- true and fair presentation is required under FRS 102? Or maybe it all computes out as it's all there under Sevco 5112 Limited in the end. Edited September 23, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hxj Posted September 23, 2021 Report Share Posted September 23, 2021 3 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said: P&S ones is some kind of written reasons for agreed settlement. Yep - brief and uninformative - see 210708---efl-derby-county---agreed-decision-signed.pdf Incidentally Swindon have also been done on the first of many offences - 210915--efl-v-swindon-town---agreed-decision--signed.pdf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REDOXO Posted September 23, 2021 Report Share Posted September 23, 2021 8 minutes ago, Hxj said: It works like this: You want to borrow £100,000 cash for a year I lend you £180,000 and charge you fees and interest of £80,000 in advance. You need to pay me £180,000 within a year, or my debt collectors pay you a visit, failing that they pay your family a visit. Like the anecdote. The non knee cap version would be to be top of the creditors list I guess. Good luck with your club. As much as people are wound up about this most accept that the supporters are pretty helpless. It seems the Mel til I die contingent are diminishing fast Which I think helps with the image. Hey from a club that has spent a lot of time in divvy three, it can have its compensations, if the administrator can get the club sorted enough for an interested party. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chinapig Posted September 23, 2021 Report Share Posted September 23, 2021 On the Derby forum there are still people arguing for an appeal on force majeure grounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hxj Posted September 23, 2021 Report Share Posted September 23, 2021 4 minutes ago, REDOXO said: Good luck with your club. mmmm - I think that some on here are confused! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hxj Posted September 23, 2021 Report Share Posted September 23, 2021 14 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Yep, Kieran first flagged it in Spring 2018 I'm not sure that I agree with his analysis without further detail. All Academy costs are outside FFP, so transferring Academy Staff and Players to the Academy company is not in itself an issue for me. That said 110 seems high but City's are at least 50. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted September 23, 2021 Report Share Posted September 23, 2021 24 minutes ago, Hxj said: I'm not sure that I agree with his analysis without further detail. All Academy costs are outside FFP, so transferring Academy Staff and Players to the Academy company is not in itself an issue for me. That said 110 seems high but City's are at least 50. Possible that I'm making too much of it tbh, I do sometimes. Derby in fairness have a Cat A academy I believe so that could account for the staff numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REDOXO Posted September 23, 2021 Report Share Posted September 23, 2021 30 minutes ago, Hxj said: mmmm - I think that some on here are confused! Mmm if you are not. Derby fan then clearly I was?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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