ashton_fan Posted August 13, 2021 Report Share Posted August 13, 2021 10 hours ago, Davefevs said: SL won’t let us bust FFP. That’s one thing. We stayed within FFP whilst building a huge millstone around our neck, in wages and amortisation whilst other costs increased too. You don’t have to push FFP to its limits to compete in this division. You have to recruit better (and waste less), you have to coach better, etc. You have to recruit to a plan, then coach that plan. Barnsley got to the playoffs on a budget 40% of ours. The likes of Preston, Millwall and Blackburn have all been competitive with budgets no higher than 60% of ours. You don’t have to fall into the trap of Derby, Reading etc. And I’ve not even mentioned Brentford, budgets a bit higher than the other 4 I mentioned but less than ours nonetheless. As I type this Rasmus Ankersen is on Sky Sports talking about recruitment. Ultimately we have been wasteful with our resources, we’ve been increasing gate revenues, increased commercial revenues, money from transfers, etc….but let it flow out the door quicker than its come in. You don’t have to pay some of the wages we have paid out, you don’t have to pay the fees, signing on fees, agent fees, penalty clauses we have. LJ, MA and SL take responsibility for that. In season 19/20 (LJ's last) we were 16th in the wages league table, so we weren't being profligate compared to other clubs in the league and we were challenging towards the top end for most of the season: 2019/20 - wage bills 1: £94.2m - Stoke City 2: £92.2m - West Brom 3: £90.7m - Swansea City 4: £62.6m - Huddersfield 5: £54.3m - Fulham 6: £48.7m - Middlesbrough 7: £46.4m - Cardiff City 8: £40.4m - Derby 9: £38.5m - Birmingham 10: £35.3m - Reading 11: £31.3m - Leeds 12: £31.1m - Hull 13: £30.6m - QPR 14: £29.3m - Sheff Wed 15: £27.7m - Nottm Forest 16: £27.2m - Bristol City 17: £17.1m - Brentford 18: £16.7m - Blackburn 19: £15.0m - Preston 20: £13.3m - Millwall 21: £11.7m - Wigan 22: £10.6m - Barnsley 23: £10.2m - Charlton 24: £6.2m - Luton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One Team Posted August 13, 2021 Report Share Posted August 13, 2021 16 hours ago, BTRFTG said: Just about wrong on every account. The accounts covering the majority of the Covid period have YET to be published. They will be soon & they'll be catastrophic. They won't be Pearson's numbers & barely Holden's, they'll mostly be Johnson's. Johnson may have gone, but the dross he signed & more importantly their liabilities tarried long after he'd left. Much remains. That's the problem, when one sacks a manager one doesn't have the option of sacking the dross he's accumulated. But let's get down to brass tacks. During his tenure Johnson's operational losses rose to in excess of £30m a year. He didn't recoup anywhere near that in player sales. And from the ongoing annual £30m+ (excluding Covid impacts that will have rolled over last year,) nearly all exclusively salaries for the dross he signed, what was there to sell to offset any of it? Johnson's legacy - in season 19/20 City's Wage Bill (that's wages alone, no other outgoing, not maintaining the stadium, paying the electric, putting on fixtures, buying kit, travelling to away fixtures et al) was 123% of Turnover. Nearly a quarter more of ALL non transfer income went paying the dross he'd amassed. So yes, we can blame Johnson until his reckless legacy hopefully runs out. Bravo, fantastic summary of the position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merrick's Marvels Posted August 13, 2021 Report Share Posted August 13, 2021 4 minutes ago, ashton_fan said: In season 19/20 (LJ's last) we were 16th in the wages league table, so we weren't being profligate compared to other clubs in the league and we were challenging towards the top end for most of the season: 2019/20 - wage bills 1: £94.2m - Stoke City 2: £92.2m - West Brom 3: £90.7m - Swansea City 4: £62.6m - Huddersfield 5: £54.3m - Fulham 6: £48.7m - Middlesbrough 7: £46.4m - Cardiff City 8: £40.4m - Derby 9: £38.5m - Birmingham 10: £35.3m - Reading 11: £31.3m - Leeds 12: £31.1m - Hull 13: £30.6m - QPR 14: £29.3m - Sheff Wed 15: £27.7m - Nottm Forest 16: £27.2m - Bristol City 17: £17.1m - Brentford 18: £16.7m - Blackburn 19: £15.0m - Preston 20: £13.3m - Millwall 21: £11.7m - Wigan 22: £10.6m - Barnsley 23: £10.2m - Charlton 24: £6.2m - Luton Yes 16th - but still hurtling towards the maximum losses we're allowed under FFP. What does that tell you? It just re-inforces the point Dave Fevs is making, not contradict it. We've been utterly wasteful in the last year or three. Why else is Pearson having to re-build the entire set up with both hands tied behind his back?? Brentford got into the play-offs with a wage bill £10 million less than ours. Millwall, Preston and Blackburn all finished above us with wage bills less than that. The year after, Barnsley got into the play-offs. These are the sort of clubs we should be looking to emulate, not pretending we can go toe to toe FINANCIALLY with a load of basket case former Premier League clubs. They're basket cases for a reason - they've ****** up, massively, sometimes putting their very existence in peril. Let's not do that again, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTRFTG Posted August 13, 2021 Report Share Posted August 13, 2021 12 hours ago, Hampshire Red said: Dave Fevs; you seem to have thousands of Stats about previous managers. I started this post becuase of the current position; last few months of NP in charge, this pre-season and the first two competitive games. You and some others seem blinkered on blaming people who's only opportunity to correct you with facts and future preformance have moved on. As a City fan please move on to the current manager, his ability to produce exciting or winning football (or preferably both) rather than harking back to the same old excuses! Hope you get to see some great away wins as we witnessed in the past 3 seasons and can also enjoy some home wins too? Pearson has an awful lot to prove to City fans and he should start showing his credentials soon as he has not done anything visible and well yet The signal point about reminding of recent history is it continues to impact the ability of the present manager to do his job. Pearson made his thoughts known quickly upon arrival as to what he thought of the squad he'd inherited. Do you think half of them would still be here had he resource and options to offload? The point is he doesn't, he's working with one hand tied behind his back. It's going to have to be slow progress through attrition and hopefully development. Judge him again that context, not the 'sign anything with a pulse' culture Johnson was permitted. Pearson can only dream of having that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted August 13, 2021 Report Share Posted August 13, 2021 45 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said: Yes 16th - but still hurtling towards the maximum losses we're allowed under FFP. What does that tell you? It just re-inforces the point Dave Fevs is making, not contradict it. We've been utterly wasteful in the last year or three. Why else is Pearson having to re-build the entire set up with both hands tied behind his back?? Brentford got into the play-offs with a wage bill £10 million less than ours. Millwall, Preston and Blackburn all finished above us with wage bills less than that. The year after, Barnsley got into the play-offs. These are the sort of clubs we should be looking to emulate, not pretending we can go toe to toe FINANCIALLY with a load of basket case former Premier League clubs. They're basket cases for a reason - they've ****** up, massively, sometimes putting their very existence in peril. Let's not do that again, eh? Thank you, summarised beautifully. I’m sure that if Ashton_fan stops trying to debate based on single lines of evidence, and tries joining lots of things up, he’d start to see the worry beads. Our amortisation will be pretty high. Our other costs will be pretty high. And of course comparing us to poorly run clubs is the wrong barometer. Its good discussion though, so thanks to both of you and bcfcluke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashton_fan Posted August 13, 2021 Report Share Posted August 13, 2021 4 hours ago, Davefevs said: Thank you, summarised beautifully. I’m sure that if Ashton_fan stops trying to debate based on single lines of evidence, and tries joining lots of things up, he’d start to see the worry beads. Our amortisation will be pretty high. Our other costs will be pretty high. And of course comparing us to poorly run clubs is the wrong barometer. Its good discussion though, so thanks to both of you and bcfcluke. The discussion all started about why NP had been given little to spend with some blaming LJ but it's 20/21 that's the problem as it will be a massive loss due to Covid which will mess up our 3-year rolling FFP average. Having said that, its the same with all other clubs apart from those with parachute money, clubs have paid very little out in transfers this summer so NP is only in the same boat as everyone else, not at a major disadvantage as some on here are implying, he has said himself he is happy with the squad he has now and will only make minor adjustments if and when the right players become available. Hopefully we'll start winning soon and people will see the squad's not so bad after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobintheRed Red Posted August 13, 2021 Report Share Posted August 13, 2021 On 12/08/2021 at 12:58, BTRFTG said: The reason Pearson deserves not be judged on his performance since arriving is wholly because of the crap personnel and catastrophic debt Johnson left trailing in his wake. It's still largely Johnson's squad, his liabilities. That's why Pearson has little wriggle room, has his work cut out in offloading the detritus (he's done pretty well in that respect,) and will need seasons, not season, to recover. We look better organised than under much of Johnson's tenure but that's not saying much, it being difficult to be less organised. If we finish 6th from bottom he'll have done OK. Top 6 isn't on the cards this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobintheRed Red Posted August 13, 2021 Report Share Posted August 13, 2021 6 minutes ago, RobintheRed Red said: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobintheRed Red Posted August 13, 2021 Report Share Posted August 13, 2021 3 minutes ago, RobintheRed Red said: Well said mate we are suffering because of the dross those two johnson and Ashton brought into the club give Pearson time to sort it Rome wasn't built in a day it took him a while to stabilise watford . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobintheRed Red Posted August 13, 2021 Report Share Posted August 13, 2021 49 minutes ago, RobintheRed Red said: Well said mate we are suffering because of the dross those two johnson and Ashton brought into the club give Pearson time to sort it Rome wasn't built in a day it took him a while to stabilise watford . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobintheRed Red Posted August 13, 2021 Report Share Posted August 13, 2021 On 12/08/2021 at 16:54, BTRFTG said: Just about wrong on every account. The accounts covering the majority of the Covid period have YET to be published. They will be soon & they'll be catastrophic. They won't be Pearson's numbers & barely Holden's, they'll mostly be Johnson's. Johnson may have gone, but the dross he signed & more importantly their liabilities tarried long after he'd left. Much remains. That's the problem, when one sacks a manager one doesn't have the option of sacking the dross he's accumulated. But let's get down to brass tacks. During his tenure Johnson's operational losses rose to in excess of £30m a year. He didn't recoup anywhere near that in player sales. And from the ongoing annual £30m+ (excluding Covid impacts that will have rolled over last year,) nearly all exclusively salaries for the dross he signed, what was there to sell to offset any of it? Johnson's legacy - in season 19/20 City's Wage Bill (that's wages alone, no other outgoing, not maintaining the stadium, paying the electric, putting on fixtures, buying kit, travelling to away fixtures et al) was 123% of Turnover. Nearly a quarter more of ALL non transfer income went paying the dross he'd amassed. So yes, we can blame Johnson until his reckless legacy hopefully runs out. Well said mate johnson and Ashton may have sold a few good players but he also signed a lot of dross watkins Adalukin Eisa etc near on sixty four players over four years spent plenty of lansdowns money of which no other manager has been lucky to have been given we are now suffering the consequences Rome wasn't built in a day give N.P time he had to reassemble watford from being a bad side to a good side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aa_bcfc Posted August 13, 2021 Report Share Posted August 13, 2021 11 hours ago, Daniro said: Back to the OP, I've given Nige his first black mark since he took over. Like many I was delighted with his appointment, the experience he brings and his commitment to a long term project. I gave him the benefit of the doubt through all last season's misery. Its clear he has a massive job on his hands as discussed on this thread above. The black mark is for three reasons: 1. He should have put a team out to win against FG. They are minnows, we haven't had a win in ages. Yes it was close etc etc, but I'm sorry, it's Forest flipping Green, guys. Get it together. 2. Conceding injury time goals in both games is a mindset thing and you'd think he'd have got that through to the players by now. Remember (I know it's a long time ago) how often we scored last minute in our promotion seasons? If he's recruiting leaders and seasoned campaigners to build team spirit, where is the evidence of that in those two games? 3. His rude attitude to Gregor. Yes Greggy asks some stupid, closed questions, but he's on our side and the principal we get to hear questions asked that we all have on our minds. NP chatted amicably pre-season to the staff interviewer, and to 20p on radio, so why not show some respect to Gregor? Just the one black mark for three offences, and I'm still optimistic, but I'm watching you, Mr P. Getting your ass down pitchside might concentrate the lads' minds too. That’s some good points. I particularly agree with the comments about Pearson’s ignorance to Gregor. There no need to be rude to anyone at work which is what Gregor is. Bristol Live is a key communication route with City fans and Pearson needs to respect that. I think Lansdown needs to have a word with him. Also I’m not keen on Pearson sitting in the stand. Ok first half but 2nd half he needs to be in the technical area where he can influence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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