How big is ‘the project’

[Dredd]

Assuming the outcome of ‘the project’ is to get City into the Premier League, just how much work needs to be done, money needs to be spent, to get us even challenging for the play offs. 

Looking at the current side we probably have the very bare bones of a team that could compete at the top end of the table in the next few years. Atkinson, HNM, Kalas, maybe Bentley/Semenyo, already look like players who could fit into a team in that position. The rest, nope, thanks, move into squad players as we recruit or move on.

Pring, Tanner, Scott are players in the first team who could develop into those kind of players, we don’t know yet. There seem to be a few other promising young uns but those are the ones currently in the team.

Therefore we need minimum 7 new players to get us competing. And that’s making a massive assumption that we are able to keep those players above and Kalas/Bentley keep at current levels as they get older so it’s probably more. We would probably need to sell someone for big bucks to even think about affording that sort of rebuild. 

I know Pearson has talked about this as a 3 year project, but I personally think that’s pie in the sky given the squad building required and the cost of this. Settle in for a few more years of mediocrity unless these academy lads turn out to be world beaters, because I don’t have faith in our recruitment. Feeling very pessimistic about City at the moment. I want it to work with NP but unless he is backed with significant funds or a top class recruitment team, of which we appear to have neither, then I fear the pressure for results will become too much and he won’t get the time/funds to see if he can see the project through. 
 

[Banjo Red]

We need players but who would want the ones we need to move on.

[Fuber]

It's huge. Simply with regards to how many areas with regard to staffing need an overhaul.

Medical is in Rennie's capable hands.

Fitness there are possible question marks, but that could be still due to the work of the previous team under Rolls' guidance.

Coaching - Downing and Simpson (you assume) must have been sacked on some reasoning, in progress.

Squad - Major overhaul needed, however the most expensive area, added to which we have no funds available.

The only area where we appear fine is academy.

It's a huge task. Arguably even worse than what O'Driscoll had, as the fitness team then with Carr, etc, was at least capable - never too many injuries. That aside there are many parallels. Lack of identity, expensive flops, cutting costs.

[Waconda]

3 minutes ago, Fuber said:

It's huge. Simply with regards to how many areas with regard to staffing need an overhaul.

Medical is in Rennie's capable hands.

Fitness there are possible question marks, but that could be still due to the work of the previous team under Rolls' guidance.

Coaching - Downing and Simpson (you assume) must have been sacked on some reasoning, in progress.

Squad - Major overhaul needed, however the most expensive area, added to which we have no funds available.

The only area where we appear fine is academy.

It's a huge task. Arguably even worse than what O'Driscoll had, as the fitness team then with Carr, etc, was at least capable - never too many injuries. That aside there are many parallels. Lack of identity, expensive flops, cutting costs.

We still seem to be picking up injuries at regular intervals, maybe it would be more without Rennie ?

The Simpson and Downing situation is odd though. The assumption is they were got rid of/paid off but is there a possibility they wanted out ? 

[Supersonic Robin]

10 minutes ago, Fuber said:

Coaching - Downing and Simpson (you assume) must have been sacked on some reasoning, in progress.

 

3 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

The Simpson and Downing situation is odd though. The assumption is they were got rid of/paid off but is there a possibility they wanted out ? 

Didn't NP say in one of the pre-match interviews that they'd asked to leave their contracts early?

[Davefevs]

48 minutes ago, Supersonic Robin said:

 

Didn't NP say in one of the pre-match interviews that they'd asked to leave their contracts early?

Think he said “Keith needs to decide whether he wants to be here or not”…..which I interpret as “I don’t want him / he doesn’t want to either”….but the only reason they hadn’t announced it was because they were agreeing termination stuff.  

[ray savino]

Gert Massive!

[ray savino]

1 minute ago, ray savino said:

Gert Massive!

Actually, come to think of it, that’s who Ian of FBC Podcast reckons we need up front.

[chinapig]

What project? There is no obvious evidence of any project plan being consistently pursued. Lines from Apocalypse Now come to mind:

Colonel Kurtz: Are my methods unsound?

Capt.Willard: I don't see any method at all, sir.

[Mattredrobin]

I think the project is much bigger than Pearson thought, we got some players out that needed to be moved on as they'd become stale at the club but sadly we've been left with far more that simply aren't up to it whether it be mentally or physically.

I am mixed on Pearson, he is definitely what we needed at the time because players have become to comfortable at city, but only last week he publicly says players need to train harder and then vyner is put straight back in his team I just think publicly outing players doesn't help at all, palmer I think is done at city... under Pearson anyway and with the size of the squad 1 or 2 injuries to the midfield and palmer will be called upon again so there are some things Pearson does that confuse me, his record here is terrible but I don't think getting rid will help we will just be in the same situation again in 6 months

I really hope we manage to get some quality in up Front in January just to keep us up if we don't I really am concerned we look like a relegation side, I hope then that we can move 5 or 6 out and get better players in but I just don't know if we will 

 

[1960maaan]

Starting from the back. We needed a sort out of medical, coaching, well pretty much all of the backroom.  He's at least started and with Dowling & Simpson going and Ball stepping up, I guess he's nearer to where he wants to be.
I think work needs doing on recruitment, but with Tanner & Atkinson it looks as though we are OK for now at least.

The team is a different matter. He got what he wanted in the Summer, that is allowing for financial restrictions. Now in an ideal world we wouldn't rely on frees to plug gaps, but needs must. He's already said we wouldn't do much in Jan, though his hand may be forced. Come to that it may not be his hand. Couldn't help but think last night, why didn't we go for Deeney? Worked with Nige before, would have been an upgrade on Martin and a handy bloke to have. Anyway, I imagine Pearson thought this year would be hard, but not as bad as we are trying to make it, then next summer add a couple and so on. Total rebuild over 3 years 

Big, big job. 

But I still would have liked to see some signs of improvement by now.

[AshtonGreat]

Problem is, there always seems to be a 'project' going on at City, without there ever really being any tangible results

[marmite]

I've said before that we are forever" rebuilding" at City. We always sale our best assets rather than add to them. You have to speculate to accumulate, we never do.  Going back to when Cotts was forced out, the club couldn't wait to break up his squad and start again.  LJ.....3 windows.  NP.....3 years. etc. etc.  If we had built on our strengths when Cotts left, things may have been different.  Yes we got some good fees but they were wasted on mediocrity, again!  Now we wait for Jan or the summer to start yet another rebuild. Come on City, I 'm too old to wait much longer, and this time there's not much to build on.

 

[Davefevs]

14 minutes ago, marmite said:

I've said before that we are forever" rebuilding" at City. We always sale our best assets rather than add to them. You have to speculate to accumulate, we never do.  Going back to when Cotts was forced out, the club couldn't wait to break up his squad and start again.  LJ.....3 windows.  NP.....3 years. etc. etc.  If we had built on our strengths when Cotts left, things may have been different.  Yes we got some good fees but they were wasted on mediocrity, again!  Now we wait for Jan or the summer to start yet another rebuild. Come on City, I 'm too old to wait much longer, and this time there's not much to build on.

 

Probably posted this before, but I think we had the perform storm of Academy, SOD, Cotts and LJ players in the team….especially autumn 17/18, and it was mainly LJ’s players in 18/19 (on that good run).  But when you argue that it was LJ’s team in 18/19 (which is a fair comment) I think it’s a bit one-sided to not mention all the other players brought in, who were costing a wage (and amortisation) who didn’t work out.  And it was the cost of these “clubs in the bag” that meant he had to sell the good players.  Had he been more frugal on the clubs in the bag, he might not have needed to sell certain players when he did.  He signed 43 players in those 3 seasons, of which I’d say 39 were meant to be 1st team competition.  Some loans included in that too, but still signings nonetheless.

 

**** when I say “he” - I mean the collective of LJ / MA / SL….I cannot blame LJ alone….he did some good things here.

[1960maaan]

1 hour ago, marmite said:

I've said before that we are forever" rebuilding" at City. We always sale our best assets rather than add to them. You have to speculate to accumulate, we never do.  Going back to when Cotts was forced out, the club couldn't wait to break up his squad and start again.  LJ.....3 windows.  NP.....3 years. etc. etc.  If we had built on our strengths when Cotts left, things may have been different.  Yes we got some good fees but they were wasted on mediocrity, again!  Now we wait for Jan or the summer to start yet another rebuild. Come on City, I 'm too old to wait much longer, and this time there's not much to build on.

 

With Cotts, that team was pretty much done over a summer. That takes any worry about losing players out of the equation . 
As for "couldn't wait to break up the team" slight exaggeration I'd say. Building aa teal over time is difficult, if you find a gem ,how do you hold onto them. Kodjia , Villa called he wanted to go. You have little choice, other than to say no and have an unhappy player. For others, it's the managers right to move players out to get "his" players in. The problem came when we didn't manage to make a challenge, the likes of Reid & Bryan offered Prem football, again they want to go. Webster, proved too good too quickly so agin we couldn't keep him when offered Premiership football. 

Totally agree about wasting the money. The combination of Ashton , Johnson and Lansdown's open cheque book was an absolute car crash which culminated in having to offload 14 players that were OOC last summer. 

The only way I see us building a team is with the likes of Atkinson & Tanner. Look like decent players, not quite good enough for teams to want to nick them yet. Add a couple more each window, then some final quality in the summer before we storm the league, easy 

[Wiltshire robin]

5 hours ago, Banjo Red said:

We need players but who would want the ones we need to move on.

Cardiff and Swansea going by history  

[Red-Robbo]

4 hours ago, chinapig said:

What project? There is no obvious evidence of any project plan being consistently pursued. Lines from Apocalypse Now come to mind:

Colonel Kurtz: Are my methods unsound?

Capt.Willard: I don't see any method at all, sir.

 He's out there operating without any decent restraint, totally beyond the pale of any acceptable human conduct. And he is still in the High Performance Centre coaching players.

[chinapig]

8 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 He's out there operating without any decent restraint, totally beyond the pale of any acceptable human conduct. And he is still in the High Performance Centre coaching players.

So should we terminate with extreme prejudice?

[Red-Robbo]

10 minutes ago, chinapig said:

So should we terminate with extreme prejudice?

They were gonna make me club captain for this, and I wasn't even in their ******* First XI anymore. Everybody wanted me to do it. Him most of all. I felt like he was up there, waiting for me to take his pain away...

Relegation to League One: The Horror, the horror...

[exAtyeoMax]

5 hours ago, VT05763 said:

The Simpson and Downing situation is odd though. The assumption is they were got rid of/paid off but is there a possibility they wanted out ? 

My thinking… perhaps they didn't buy into what Nige wanted? 

[Banjo Red]

31 minutes ago, Wiltshire robin said:

Cardiff and Swansea going by history  

Like your style.

[054123]

3 hours ago, AshtonGreat said:

Problem is, there always seems to be a 'project' going on at City, without there ever really being any tangible results

Absolutely.

We never believe in ourselves. It’s almost as if the club enjoy Div 2

[tin]

1 hour ago, 1960maaan said:

With Cotts, that team was pretty much done over a summer. That takes any worry about losing players out of the equation . 

To add to that, that was the last time we had a Director of Football in place (Keith Burt) and any sort of scouting network to call upon. The results were clear and all of the business done early in the summer, before the start of that pre-season. That suggests a lot of planning went into it and there was clear direction. 

Ashton dismantled that, put in his own men and the results are also equally clear. LJ deserves credit for the signings of Brownhill and Webster, those kept us afloat, but beyond that there’s not one player signed during in that time who’s been bought and sold for a considerable profit (transfer fee and wages included). Therein lies the problem and where we find ourselves now.

The project is huge and money needs to be spent to get the right people in recruitment, leading to the right blend of players on the pitch. SL has turned the taps off at the worst time, although I understand why in the current financial climate. 

Edited November 3, 2021 by tin

[mozo]

6 hours ago, Dredd said:

Assuming the outcome of ‘the project’ is to get City into the Premier League, just how much work needs to be done, money needs to be spent, to get us even challenging for the play offs. 

Looking at the current side we probably have the very bare bones of a team that could compete at the top end of the table in the next few years. Atkinson, HNM, Kalas, maybe Bentley/Semenyo, already look like players who could fit into a team in that position. The rest, nope, thanks, move into squad players as we recruit or move on.

Pring, Tanner, Scott are players in the first team who could develop into those kind of players, we don’t know yet. There seem to be a few other promising young uns but those are the ones currently in the team.

Therefore we need minimum 7 new players to get us competing. And that’s making a massive assumption that we are able to keep those players above and Kalas/Bentley keep at current levels as they get older so it’s probably more. We would probably need to sell someone for big bucks to even think about affording that sort of rebuild. 

I know Pearson has talked about this as a 3 year project, but I personally think that’s pie in the sky given the squad building required and the cost of this. Settle in for a few more years of mediocrity unless these academy lads turn out to be world beaters, because I don’t have faith in our recruitment. Feeling very pessimistic about City at the moment. I want it to work with NP but unless he is backed with significant funds or a top class recruitment team, of which we appear to have neither, then I fear the pressure for results will become too much and he won’t get the time/funds to see if he can see the project through. 
 

I think there's also a good chance that Scott, Massengo and perhaps one other of that group will be sold to a club higher up the food chain. 

That might be good for the coffers, but it makes the rebuild even bigger.

[Mr Popodopolous]

6 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

Starting from the back. We needed a sort out of medical, coaching, well pretty much all of the backroom.  He's at least started and with Dowling & Simpson going and Ball stepping up, I guess he's nearer to where he wants to be.
I think work needs doing on recruitment, but with Tanner & Atkinson it looks as though we are OK for now at least.

The team is a different matter. He got what he wanted in the Summer, that is allowing for financial restrictions. Now in an ideal world we wouldn't rely on frees to plug gaps, but needs must. He's already said we wouldn't do much in Jan, though his hand may be forced. Come to that it may not be his hand. Couldn't help but think last night, why didn't we go for Deeney? Worked with Nige before, would have been an upgrade on Martin and a handy bloke to have. Anyway, I imagine Pearson thought this year would be hard, but not as bad as we are trying to make it, then next summer add a couple and so on. Total rebuild over 3 years 

Big, big job. 

But I still would have liked to see some signs of improvement by now.

Wages probably.

He took a major cut reportedly to go to Birmingham, as he is a Birmingham fan. Watford kindly released him from his contract early as he wouldn't have been in their plans this season and they could have afforded it- that combination set up the move.

Edited November 3, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

With Cotts, that team was pretty much done over a summer. That takes any worry about losing players out of the equation . 
As for "couldn't wait to break up the team" slight exaggeration I'd say. Building aa teal over time is difficult, if you find a gem ,how do you hold onto them. Kodjia , Villa called he wanted to go. You have little choice, other than to say no and have an unhappy player. For others, it's the managers right to move players out to get "his" players in. The problem came when we didn't manage to make a challenge, the likes of Reid & Bryan offered Prem football, again they want to go. Webster, proved too good too quickly so agin we couldn't keep him when offered Premiership football. 

Totally agree about wasting the money. The combination of Ashton , Johnson and Lansdown's open cheque book was an absolute car crash which culminated in having to offload 14 players that were OOC last summer. 

The only way I see us building a team is with the likes of Atkinson & Tanner. Look like decent players, not quite good enough for teams to want to nick them yet. Add a couple more each window, then some final quality in the summer before we storm the league, easy 

Was also in League One. Great work was done and clearly a number of the players have gone on to shine elsewhere, but being one of the bigger/richer sides at that level as was, we would have had the pick in some ways.

Agree with much of your post although I question how many of the signings or failed signings under MA/LJ/SL were actually poor or inept players individually.

[1960maaan]

7 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

how many of the signings or failed signings under MA/LJ/SL were actually poor or inept players individually.

That is a brilliant question. 
I'll start with another, how many during the Johnson/Ashton years, did we actually get the best out of?
Brownhill ? We did actually see him grow and improve.
Flint & Pack improved during that time, but not their signings. Same with Korey Smith. I'm not sure you can even count Bryan or Reid.
As for poor players, Marinovic, Diony & Garita spring to mind, but plenty never given a chance to fail. We had such a revolving door policy with signings and team selection, it must have been virtually impossible to work with players to improve them. 
I don't think we signed many poor players, we did take too many chances on players that didn't seem to work out. Who's fault that was I don't know, given a chance how many might have done a job. Instead of "clubs in the bag" imagine we used that money on just a few quality players. 
 

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, tin said:

To add to that, that was the last time we had a Director of Football in place (Keith Burt) and any sort of scouting network to call upon. The results were clear and all of the business done early in the summer, before the start of that pre-season. That suggests a lot of planning went into it and there was clear direction. 

Ashton dismantled that, put in his own men and the results are also equally clear. LJ deserves credit for the signings of Brownhill and Webster, those kept us afloat, but beyond that there’s not one player signed during in that time who’s been bought and sold for a considerable profit (transfer fee and wages included). Therein lies the problem and where we find ourselves now.

The project is huge and money needs to be spent to get the right people in recruitment, leading to the right blend of players on the pitch. SL has turned the taps off at the worst time, although I understand why in the current financial climate. 

Looking at “my list” I can’t see one either.  And if the ones left behind that he signed, I think only one will return a profit….HNM.

[tin]

Just now, Davefevs said:

Looking at “my list” I can’t see one either.  And if the ones left behind that he signed, I think only one will return a profit….HNM.

Depends what the actual fee was we paid for him; some say nearer £2m, others nearer £8m. But yeah, I agree. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

On 03/11/2021 at 19:39, 1960maaan said:

That is a brilliant question. 
I'll start with another, how many during the Johnson/Ashton years, did we actually get the best out of?
Brownhill ? We did actually see him grow and improve.
Flint & Pack improved during that time, but not their signings. Same with Korey Smith. I'm not sure you can even count Bryan or Reid.
As for poor players, Marinovic, Diony & Garita spring to mind, but plenty never given a chance to fail. We had such a revolving door policy with signings and team selection, it must have been virtually impossible to work with players to improve them. 
I don't think we signed many poor players, we did take too many chances on players that didn't seem to work out. Who's fault that was I don't know, given a chance how many might have done a job. Instead of "clubs in the bag" imagine we used that money on just a few quality players. 
 

As is yours.

Agreed with those...we certainly IMO did see them hit the optimum level. Webster was very good?

Agreed with that too- revolving door policy was a big bugbear of mine, it's costly and it destroys the chance to build cohesion. Agree on the poor players, those 3 were some although wasn't Garita a punt ie no great cost or am I thinking of someone else? Yeah that will fall down given the churn.

Agreed. Don't forget too, quite a few had medium term and longer injuries- that's something we did not get right in those days...to name a few off the top of my head.

1. Mawson
2. Sessegnon
3. Hegeler
4. O'Neil
5. Walsh
6. Djuric

I'm sure there were many more by the way. In fact I'm certain there were- can't get the best nor can players in that position show their best. Didn't Watkins have lengthy injuries too not that he was great, Adelakun yes not necessarily up to it but injuries did him or us few favours- terrible bad luck eh all these medium to long term injuries.