Desire / Determination - Fleming post-match

[Davefevs]

This is a guy who’s playing career was all about grit and determination.  As a team we are not prepared to work hard enough to do the hard yards together, imho.

I think he’s right when he says it’s not about tactics and formations second half per se, it’s about desire.  Too many players strolling at times, only running hard when it suited them.  Players probably thought 1-0up, against 10 men, job done.  Then Cov have a go, and get on top.

I don’t know what the answer is.

If as a couple of posters they they think the manager / coaches is the reason, then where’s their professional pride?  Where was it with Holden?

I think it’s too easy to blame the manager….nor am I saying he is blameless either….but we love to pinpoint one or two people.  

[Waconda]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

This is a guy who’s playing career was all about grit and determination.  As a team we are not prepared to work hard enough to do the hard yards together, imho.

I think he’s right when he says it’s not about tactics and formations second half per se, it’s about desire.  Too many players strolling at times, only running hard when it suited them.  Players probably thought 1-0up, against 10 men, job done.  Then Cov have a go, and get on top.

I don’t know what the answer is.

If as a couple of posters they they think the manager / coaches is the reason, then where’s their professional pride?  Where was it with Holden?

I think it’s too easy to blame the manager….nor am I saying he is blameless either….but we love to pinpoint one or two people.  

It is the Manager and coaching staffs job to prepare, organise, enthuse and motivate the team. If they are claiming there is nothing they can do then either change the players you are talking about or accept you have failed and move over for someone else to have a go.

Players don't give up on Managers they have belief and confidence in.

[petehinton]

He told them to shut up shop at HT against 10 men???!!!

[Numero Uno]

Just now, VT05763 said:

It is the Manager and coaching staffs job to prepare, organise, enthuse and motivate the team. If they are claiming there is nothing they can do then either change the players you are talking about or accept you have failed and move over for someone else to have a go.

Players don't give up on Managers they have belief and confidence in.

Have you played at any sort of level at all? Seriously, did you rely on the Manager and Coaching Staff to motivate you? Didn't you have any self motivation and enthusiasm for the game? Honestly?

[LondonBristolian]

11 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

This is a guy who’s playing career was all about grit and determination.  As a team we are not prepared to work hard enough to do the hard yards together, imho.

I think he’s right when he says it’s not about tactics and formations second half per se, it’s about desire.  Too many players strolling at times, only running hard when it suited them.  Players probably thought 1-0up, against 10 men, job done.  Then Cov have a go, and get on top.

I don’t know what the answer is.

If as a couple of posters they they think the manager / coaches is the reason, then where’s their professional pride?  Where was it with Holden?

I think it’s too easy to blame the manager….nor am I saying he is blameless either….but we love to pinpoint one or two people.  

Being honest, I think we are struggling with the dual impact of a squad that is not good enough and managerial team that are very clear that the squad is not good enough. We have a team of poor players and a lack of balance but also a team that clearly know the manager does not rate them and probably suspect he is right not to rate them. Quality is poor and confidence is shot. Such a dangerous combination.

Edited November 6, 2021 by LondonBristolian

[GrahamC]

Just now, petehinton said:

He told them to shut up shop at HT against 10 men???!!!

I think probably what was said was we are 1 up & they are a man down, limit their chances.

Whatever it was, it didn’t work.

Whether you think that is down to Fleming or the players (or both) is up to you.

I cannot fathom why we are so defensively poor as a unit, how a man gets free in the 92nd minute when we have an extra player, I just don’t understand.

[The Swan and Cemetery]

1 minute ago, Numero Uno said:

Have you played at any sort of level at all? Seriously, did you rely on the Manager and Coaching Staff to motivate you? Didn't you have any self motivation and enthusiasm for the game? Honestly?

Couldn’t agree more - tactics, set up and so on, fair enough to call out manager and coaching team. But desire/effort, if someone needs someone else to do that for them, when they’re earning potloads compared to the average person, there’s something badly wrong with them. Have some pride. Care about doing your best for the supporters travelling and paying their hard earned cash. 

[REDOXO]

At HT I said to Mrs Oxo, we are one nil up and playing ten men. ONLY WE COULD MESS THIS UP!

And it came to pass! I tweeted Twentyman 'I feel sick' at the final whistle, then I tweeeted it to Jon Lansdown...

This season has been one kick in the guts after another. Personally I think Pearson has taken on Ashton, Holden's LJs SLs and JL's poison chalice and he knew it. Our injuries are mounting up again, we are putting our hopes in players across the club who seem helpless and hapless who can not run, shoot, pass, tackle or have any basic technical ability!

After that and the meaningless post match presser I'm glad I have two weeks off!

 

[The Original OTIB]

More to the point, why are players not doing post match interviews? They need to own this situation as well.

[samo II]

We’ve pinned ourselves into a corner with a small squad, so I understand we don’t have much latitude when it comes to changing personnel too much.

But personally; if the coaches are finding a lack of desire and drive in players, they need to start reflecting that as far as possible in team selection.

I fully understand the argument of over-exposing young players to adult football, and they don’t want to ruin anyone by throwing them into the fire, but honestly; at this stage, I’d be promoting and trying out youth players instead of several of the senior pros.

At the very, very least you would bring a bit of energy to the side, and if those kids are decent - great - but even if not, they might at least start giving the senior pros food for thought.

I personally don’t think sacking the manager is going to do much; these players have effectively seen off three gaffers now, so it isn’t all on NP.

But that being the case; deal with the root cause - if a few games in the stands focuses the minds of some while they watch kids battle for their spot, would that be so bad?

I’m not sure it could be worse.

[bexhill reds]

4 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

It is the Manager and coaching staffs job to prepare, organise, enthuse and motivate the team. If they are claiming there is nothing they can do then either change the players you are talking about or accept you have failed and move over for someone else to have a go.

Players don't give up on Managers they have belief and confidence in.

Arguably 3 managers have been and gone with the players on the pitch today bar one, you have to question the attitude of those paid to kick the football if they can’t raise their game sufficiently for anyone of those 3.

Not saying the management is without fault, but clearly there is something not right on the playing side, perhaps they all need to get pissed, have it out and then have a ******* good punch up, then have another go, sometimes that sorts the problems out on the shop floor.

[Ostrich]

Bit of a cop out that imo. I looked on my phone after about 25 mins and the pass completion was 52% so I'm not sure how he can be happy with the first half, I took the piss out of Rotherham last year when you played them because at half time they had a 48% pass completion. 52% in the first 25 minutes is diabolical. That's either a case of players playing at a standard far above what they should be (clearly not, these aren't conference level players) or the structure and shape make it difficult to make the passes and play through, or it's tactical but even then I don't think even Warnock or Big Sam or Pulis would take that. 

I think there's an element of what he says though, nobody really bust a gut when it mattered, there wasn't enough aggression, there was a real lack of concentration (the penalty is some of the worst defending you'll see all week especially given the time and situation). But even then Weimann is a player you might not apply the lack of desire and poor attitude too but he's running around pointlessly half of the time which is a coaching thing, Massengo looked under-coached too (he was awful, I was impressed with him against QPR but today I was really disappointed, even the basics weren't there).

They don't even have to be bad players or players that aren't arsed but once you get a group of players in a long-term rut, it's easy for them to just go through the motions and the atmosphere never recovers. You could pick them off individually and they might look decent elsewhere, there's clearly a group problem that needs smashing through whoever is manager going forward. 

[bexhill reds]

1 minute ago, samo II said:

We’ve pinned ourselves into a corner with a small squad, so I understand we don’t have much latitude when it comes to changing personnel too much.

But personally; if the coaches are finding a lack of desire and drive in players, they need to start reflecting that as far as possible in team selection.

I fully understand the argument of over-exposing young players to adult football, and they don’t want to ruin anyone by throwing them into the fire, but honestly; at this stage, I’d be promoting and trying out youth players instead of several of the senior pros.

At the very, very least you would bring a bit of energy to the side, and if those kids are decent - great - but even if not, they might at least start giving the senior pros food for thought.

I personally don’t think sacking the manager is going to do much; these players have effectively seen off three gaffers now, so it isn’t all on NP.

But that being the case; deal with the root cause - if a few games in the stands focuses the minds of some while they watch kids battle for their spot, would that be so bad?

I’m not sure it could be worse.

I think we’re entering a zone where playing our talented kids might not do them any favours, certainly not in the long term. You need to nurture and not stick them in a bear pit, especially at home with an exceptionally pissed off home crowd.

[redsquirrel]

a fair few of cotts team went into town together on a saturday night together and more than likely had a good night out as mates.  think this could be a lot of our problems,plus half of them would be under the table by 9 oclock they are so lightweight

[samo II]

Just now, bexhill reds said:

I think we’re entering a zone where playing our talented kids might not do them any favours, certainly not in the long term. You need to nurture and not stick them in a bear pit, especially at home with an exceptionally pissed off home crowd.

Fair.

Though honestly; rooting for young lads trying their best beats watching these guys right now.

Ultimately, I don’t have an answer, but something needs to change.

[LondonBristolian]

11 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Have you played at any sort of level at all? Seriously, did you rely on the Manager and Coaching Staff to motivate you? Didn't you have any self motivation and enthusiasm for the game? Honestly?

I think that is a bit of a false argument. I think most of us - whatever our career - can recognise the difference in how we perform when we are comfortable and confident in what we are doing and feel trusted to do that  and how we perform when we are scared our boss is going to haul us over the coals for any mistake we make. 
 

Footballers are humans - not some weird alien species where basic rules of human psychology no longer apply.

[redsquirrel]

2 minutes ago, Ostrich said:

Bit of a cop out that imo. I looked on my phone after about 25 mins and the pass completion was 52% so I'm not sure how he can be happy with the first half, I took the piss out of Rotherham last year when you played them because at half time they had a 48% pass completion. 52% in the first 25 minutes is diabolical. That's either a case of players playing at a standard far above what they should be (clearly not, these aren't conference level players) or the structure and shape make it difficult to make the passes and play through, or it's tactical but even then I don't think even Warnock or Big Sam or Pulis would take that. 

I think there's an element of what he says though, nobody really bust a gut when it mattered, there wasn't enough aggression, there was a real lack of concentration (the penalty is some of the worst defending you'll see all week especially given the time and situation). But even then Weimann is a player you might not apply the lack of desire and poor attitude too but he's running around pointlessly half of the time which is a coaching thing, Massengo looked under-coached too (he was awful, I was impressed with him against QPR but today I was really disappointed, even the basics weren't there).

They don't even have to be bad players or players that aren't arsed but once you get a group of players in a long-term rut, it's easy for them to just go through the motions and the atmosphere never recovers. You could pick them off individually and they might look decent elsewhere, there's clearly a group problem that needs smashing through whoever is manager going forward. 

too true,sudbury were trying much harder to defend last night,even at 3-0 down

[Numero Uno]

Just now, JonDolman said:

The depressing thing is I think they worked their socks off and were desperate to win that game. I wish it was just not having desire!

Not knowing what they're doing at times? Most certainly.

Can't defend, can't pass the ball. It's no different to a lot of games this season.

It's no good "working your socks off" if you don't carry out the instructions you were given and/or lose concentration/switch off when it really matters. Vyner made a bad decision and that's 1-1, Kalas, Bentley and AN Other lose concentration and that's 2-2. Massengo then switches off and they got their winner. Why is he switching off? If he wants to be a top player and play in the Premiership he can't switch off for a second - that is where real "desire" comes in. Working very hard and coming off with 12km on your vest does not mean you have the desire to concentrate fully, to be focused and switched on to both expect and notice the runner so you can make that twenty yard run and avoid that one moment at the end that costs the result. Fleming summed it up "do your jobs" - making sure you do your job properly for 90 minutes is focus and desire, running round like a headless chicken with 12km on your vest but forgetting to do important jobs isn't.

[BanburyRed]

18 minutes ago, petehinton said:

He told them to shut up shop at HT against 10 men???!!!

You've stolen my response, staggering comment to make.....

[054123]

16 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

Being honest, I think we are struggling with the dual impact of a squad that is not good enough and managerial team that are very clear that the squad is not good enough. We have a team of poor players and a lack of balance but also a team that clearly know the manager does not rate them and probably suspect he is right not to rate them. Quality is poor and confidence is shot. Such a dangerous combination.

Good post

[HappyClapper]

Lots of understandable anger and disappointment on Otib tonight. I know I’m in the  Pearson in camp, but I honestly don’t think you can put today down to the coaching team. We were 1-0 up against 10 men. To lose the second half 3-1 is embarrassing, and the first place to look is the players. Anyone who’s ever played the game has played against 10 men and understand the need to control possession and move them around and hopefully make gaps and tire the opponents. This has nothing to do with coaching but grit, determination and professional pride. To concede 3 goals against 10 men is an absolute joke. These are the same players that collapsed after the Covid break. Capitulated last season and are looking like doing it again. They have shown the same weak mentality and a lack of passion for the shirt under 3 different managers. I really don’t think that yet another manager will make any difference.

In his pre match press conference NP called on the squad to roll their sleeves up and show some grit and determination At half time it looked like tactically things were working and we had a 1-0 lead against 10 men. Then a collapse…

I think there are plenty of senior players who should be looking hard in the mirror over the international break and deciding if they have the cojones to get us out of this mess.

I won’t be holding my breath.

Best case senario, we manage to stay up and clear out the playing squad ASAP.

[stephenkibby.]

6 minutes ago, bexhill reds said:

I think we’re entering a zone where playing our talented kids might not do them any favours, certainly not in the long term. You need to nurture and not stick them in a bear pit, especially at home with an exceptionally pissed off home crowd.

But what is the answer ? playing the same players making the same mistakes week in week out is surly going to get us relagated.

[Numero Uno]

2 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I think that is a bit of a false argument. I think most of us - whatever our career - can recognise the difference in how we perform when we are comfortable and confident in what we are doing and feel trusted to do that  and how we perform when we are scared our boss is going to haul us over the coals for any mistake we make. 
 

Footballers are humans - not some weird alien species where basic rules of human psychology no longer apply.

You are talking about confidence not motivation. Professional footballers really shouldn't need much in the way of motivation put into them. Too many people make excuses for players and pin everything on Managers. The individual mistakes we saw today are on the players, nobody else.

Footballers are a weird species in that many of them take £20K per week out of their Employer and then hide behind the Manager when they fail to do what they have been asked to do.

[sticks 1969]

6 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I think that is a bit of a false argument. I think most of us - whatever our career - can recognise the difference in how we perform when we are comfortable and confident in what we are doing and feel trusted to do that  and how we perform when we are scared our boss is going to haul us over the coals for any mistake we make. 
 

Footballers are humans - not some weird alien species where basic rules of human psychology no longer apply.

Very very very true 

 

[Will Rollason]

That's the fourth time in seventeen league games that we've conceded after 90 mins.

Seems like more tbh

[Red white and red]

15 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

At HT I said to Mrs Oxo, we are one nil up and playing ten men. ONLY WE COULD MESS THIS UP!

And it came to pass! I tweeted Twentyman 'I feel sick' at the final whistle, then I tweeeted it to Jon Lansdown...

This season has been one kick in the guts after another. Personally I think Pearson has taken on Ashton, Holden's LJs SLs and JL's poison chalice and he knew it. Our injuries are mounting up again, we are putting our hopes in players across the club who seem helpless and hapless who can not run, shoot, pass, tackle or have any basic technical ability!

After that and the meaningless post match presser I'm glad I have two weeks off!

 

Why? Like he would even be remotely bothered about another implosion.

[milo1111]

19 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

Being honest, I think we are struggling with the dual impact of a squad that is not good enough and managerial team that are very clear that the squad is not good enough. We have a team of poor players and a lack of balance but also a team that clearly know the manager does not rate them and probably suspect he is right not to rate them. Quality is poor and confidence is shot. Such a dangerous combination.

Stop talking sense. No place on here

[samo II]

1 minute ago, Will Rollason said:

That's the fourth time in seventeen league games that we've conceded after 90 mins.

Seems like more tbh

Said a while ago (after the third one) it was a worrying trend and someone tried to take me to account on it.

While I don’t feel good for saying so, this kind of seals it - we have a problem.

[old_eastender]

13 minutes ago, samo II said:

We’ve pinned ourselves into a corner with a small squad, so I understand we don’t have much latitude when it comes to changing personnel too much.

But personally; if the coaches are finding a lack of desire and drive in players, they need to start reflecting that as far as possible in team selection.

I fully understand the argument of over-exposing young players to adult football, and they don’t want to ruin anyone by throwing them into the fire, but honestly; at this stage, I’d be promoting and trying out youth players instead of several of the senior pros.

At the very, very least you would bring a bit of energy to the side, and if those kids are decent - great - but even if not, they might at least start giving the senior pros food for thought.

I personally don’t think sacking the manager is going to do much; these players have effectively seen off three gaffers now, so it isn’t all on NP.

But that being the case; deal with the root cause - if a few games in the stands focuses the minds of some while they watch kids battle for their spot, would that be so bad?

I’m not sure it could be worse.

Well said. Really p1sses me off when you have someone like COD who after a good first half, disappears 2nd half AND stays on the pitch. Benarous running at their defence is exactly what we needed to occupy them and he was left get splinters in his arse, whist COD did nothing 2nd half. Bringing on Wells was a waste of time too. When are NP/CF going to learn that having Wells, Martin & Weimann on the pitch at the same time does not work.

[Red white and red]

3 minutes ago, stephenkibby. said:

But what is the answer ? playing the same players making the same mistakes week in week out is surly going to get us relagated.

Do we have any other options at all? At best we can change 2 or 3 players. We don’t have the squad depth or quality to make more changes than that per game.