Desire / Determination - Fleming post-match

[Waconda]

8 minutes ago, Supersonic Robin said:

 

 

This. How much motivation do you need from your manager?

Fair enough if the players fundamentally don't give a crap about Bristol City Football Club, I don't expect them to love the club like we do. But have some professional pride. Do it for yourself if not for the club.

I ****ing hated losing games playing for my local team, or even playing on the school field at lunchtime FFS! Not being embarrassed was sufficient motivation. Not having people take the piss was sufficient motivation. Being able to be proud of myself was sufficient motivation.

The idea that anyone with so little self pride and self motivation could actually become a professional athlete is beyond me. If our coaches need to "motivate" our players not to be battered by 10 man Coventry, then our issues with club culture are far greater than I thought possible. 

Think we are miles apart on this -

Absolutely essential for a Manager (in any profession) to motivate his players/staff.  That is essentially their job !

Can't believe these players don't care, can't be bothered and as you say personal pride comes into it. More likely in my opinion they have lost faith and trust in what they are being told to do and in who is doing the telling.

The Barnsley game was the big giveaway for me.

I may of course be totally wrong.

[054123]

1 hour ago, petehinton said:

He told them to shut up shop at HT against 10 men???!!!

I don’t think he meant it like that.

Lock it up as in no mistakes, do all the basics right and they won’t score.

[old_eastender]

1 hour ago, Supersonic Robin said:

Appreciate where you're coming from, but what evidence is there that Benarous is ready to contribute anything meaningful? (Same goes for some of the other younger players).

Benarous really really struggled to make any kind of positive impact vs Barnsley. By no means am I writing off the likes of Benarous, but you can't just assume that they'll be an improvement. 

True, but you ain't going to find out without giving them a chance, 30 mins say, not just 10 mins at the end of a game. For me today would have been perfect to bring Benerous on, as COD just went missing in action for the 2nd half (after a good 1st half).

[The Swan and Cemetery]

2 minutes ago, old_eastender said:

True, but you ain't going to find out without giving them a chance, 30 mins say, not just 10 mins at the end of a game. For me today would have been perfect to bring Benerous on, as COD just went missing in action for the 2nd half (after a good 1st half).

1st half table: 6th

2nd half table: 23rd

Fitness, resilience, something else? 

[GrahamC]

1 hour ago, Supersonic Robin said:

Appreciate where you're coming from, but what evidence is there that Benarous is ready to contribute anything meaningful? (Same goes for some of the other younger players).

Benarous really really struggled to make any kind of positive impact vs Barnsley. By no means am I writing off the likes of Benarous, but you can't just assume that they'll be an improvement. 

Spot on, he was completely anonymous but because he didn’t come on today then he’s suddenly become the answer.

There have been a couple of posts saying “play the youngsters”, look at today’s team, 50% of it was youngsters & I really don’t think playing more of them is the answer.

[Davefevs]

11 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

Absolutely essential for a Manager (in any profession) to motivate his players/staff.  That is essentially their job !

Or have self-motivated staff, that just need gentle direction here and there.

I’m glad my manager doesn’t need to manage 95% of the work I do.  I understand the guidelines, processes, my role in the team, because my manager is clear.  My manager then allows me to execute within those things above.  I don’t need “well done Dave”, I don’t need “have you done that yet Dave”.

Edited November 6, 2021 by Davefevs

[The Swan and Cemetery]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Or have self-motivated staff, that just need gentle direction here and there.

I’m glad my manager doesn’t need to manage 95% of the work I do.  I understand the guidelines, processes, my role in the term, because my manager is clear.  My manager then allows me to execute within those things above.  I don’t need “well done Dave”, I don’t need “have you done that yet Dave”.

Yep, a better leader/manager will be good for ensuring the organisation/team is heading in the right direction and that will make folk happier, but a poor manager needn’t impact your own self respect to do your best (and for most people, it’s not their direct manager paying their wages, so opportunity to pay some respect to that as well, by doing your best). 

[Taylor10]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

This is a guy who’s playing career was all about grit and determination.  As a team we are not prepared to work hard enough to do the hard yards together, imho.

I think he’s right when he says it’s not about tactics and formations second half per se, it’s about desire.  Too many players strolling at times, only running hard when it suited them.  Players probably thought 1-0up, against 10 men, job done.  Then Cov have a go, and get on top.

I don’t know what the answer is.

If as a couple of posters they they think the manager / coaches is the reason, then where’s their professional pride?  Where was it with Holden?

I think it’s too easy to blame the manager….nor am I saying he is blameless either….but we love to pinpoint one or two people.  

Bang on Dave. I think the manager & tactics have to be questioned, but I said in another thread that some of these players have under performed consistently for 3 different managers. This is a very very poor squad of players make no mistake about that. 

[prankerd]

2 hours ago, LondonBristolian said:

Being honest, I think we are struggling with the dual impact of a squad that is not good enough and managerial team that are very clear that the squad is not good enough. We have a team of poor players and a lack of balance but also a team that clearly know the manager does not rate them and probably suspect he is right not to rate them. Quality is poor and confidence is shot. Such a dangerous combination.

If my manager didnt rate me id do everything to prove him wrong.. let alone 20k bristol city fans every home game booing me! I dont think its effort from the players i just think they arnt very good..

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, Taylor10 said:

Bang on Dave. I think the manager & tactics have to be questioned, but I said in another thread that some of these players have under performed consistently for 3 different managers. This is a very very poor squad of players make no mistake about that. 

At a basic level, tactically, 4141, men behind the ball, Martin left on his own to close the CBs a bit. 4 midfielders ready to engage….Weimann and O’Dowda to engage WBs in early possession phase.  Once over the halfway line, become hard to penetrate….if they long ball switch, so be it.  With the ball, look to get O’Dowda and Weimann running off Martin, but Massengo and Scott look to get its and pieces….Bakinson don’t go past those two.  Lots of other finer points.  We started slowly, but grew into the half, started looking a bit better as the half drew to an end, getting the pen and almost a second from a good press.

I think first half was, “if we lose an early goal, we are gonna be in for a long afternoon”, and you saw good commitment, desire to block, Kalas sprinting 60 yards back from a corner breakaway etc.

Second half I saw little done at full-tilt.  I saw Massengo give up after turning square into trouble.  I didn’t see enough of the 4141 once Cov got over the halfway line.  I saw Dabo and Kane getting high up the pitch…they had 10 men.  Collectively not enough players working hard enough.

The tactics were set first half, there wasn’t enough commitment to work hard enough to execute them in the second half.

Theres a part of me that says 11v10, tactics become an irrelevance, should be able to play keep ball for large portions of that game.  We didn’t.

[Red-Robbo]

11 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Spot on, he was completely anonymous but because he didn’t come on today then he’s suddenly become the answer.

There have been a couple of posts saying “play the youngsters”, look at today’s team, 50% of it was youngsters & I really don’t think playing more of them is the answer.

 

Coventry weren't vastly older and more experienced than the team we put out, Gray. They had a teenager and three 23-year-olds in their starting line-up.

In fact, apart from a few old heads like McFadzean and Godden most of their squad are in their early 20s.

We can't keep playing variations on the same 14 failing players though. Something's got to change.

If we get Joe Williams and Matty James back after the break, we MAY see an improvement. 

Ultimately, our ability to play 90+ minutes of football seems to have deserted us. Players look tired in the second half. We sit deep and baulk at anything physical in the last 20 minutes because we seem exhausted. Whether that's mental or physical I don't know, but something is rotten in the state of Denmark. Even the experienced players are starting to play as if they are overawed rookies. 

[lenred]

2 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

Coventry weren't vastly older and more experienced than the team we put out, Gray. They had a teenager and three 23-year-olds in their starting line-up.

In fact, apart from a few old heads like McFadzean and Godden most of their squad are in their early 20s.

We can't keep playing variations on the same 14 failing players though. Something's got to change.

If we get Joe Williams and Matty James back after the break, we MAY see an improvement. 

Ultimately, our ability to play 90+ minutes of football seems to have deserted us. Players look tired in the second half. We sit deep and baulk at anything physical in the last 20 minutes because we seem exhausted. Whether that's mental or physical I don't know, but something is rotten in the state of Denmark. Even the experienced players are starting to play as if they are overawed rookies. 

More politely,  as you are far more reasoned than most RR, what what would you do? Who would you realistically bring in or what would you realistically change?  Our squad is completely and utterly screwed, especially with our injuries, and the best we could have ever hoped (imho) for is mid table which is still on. Sorry, I know you are not saying NP out but as a respected poster, what would you do?  

[Taylor10]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

At a basic level, tactically, 4141, men behind the ball, Martin left on his own to close the CBs a bit. 4 midfielders ready to engage….Weimann and O’Dowda to engage WBs in early possession phase.  Once over the halfway line, become hard to penetrate….if they long ball switch, so be it.  With the ball, look to get O’Dowda and Weimann running off Martin, but Massengo and Scott look to get its and pieces….Bakinson don’t go past those two.  Lots of other finer points.  We started slowly, but grew into the half, started looking a bit better as the half drew to an end, getting the pen and almost a second from a good press.

I think first half was, “if we lose an early goal, we are gonna be in for a long afternoon”, and you saw good commitment, desire to block, Kalas sprinting 60 yards back from a corner breakaway etc.

Second half I saw little done at full-tilt.  I saw Massengo give up after turning square into trouble.  I didn’t see enough of the 4141 once Cov got over the halfway line.  I saw Dabo and Kane getting high up the pitch…they had 10 men.  Collectively not enough players working hard enough.

The tactics were set first half, there wasn’t enough commitment to work hard enough to execute them in the second half.

Theres a part of me that says 11v10, tactics become an irrelevance, should be able to play keep ball for large portions of that game.  We didn’t.

Your last sentence sums it up for me. We didn’t have one player, not one who was prepared to try keep the ball in that second half, let alone as a team. It was very alarming to watch but it was like it the entire second half. The 10 men of cov by far the better side but my word we made it easy for them.

Yes we can question managers & tactics but there was a serious lack of desire & professional pride in that City side today.

 

[Red-Robbo]

1 minute ago, lenred said:

More politely,  as you are far more reasoned than most RR, what what would you do? Who would you realistically bring in or what would you realistically change?  Our squad is completely and utterly screwed, especially with our injuries, and the best we could have ever hoped (imho) for is mid table which is still on. Sorry, I know you are not saying NP out but as a respected poster, what would you do?  

 

I think Nige needs help with coaching and may actually also need to bring in a top notch sports psychologist as we seem beaten when we walk out the tunnel. Given the number of injuries, we still need to look at various issues around that.  David Rennie has cut out the hamstring issues, but we don't seem very fit IMO.  Sometimes we look almost like amateurs playing professionals. 

[bexhill reds]

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:.

Theres a part of me that says 11v10, tactics become an irrelevance, should be able to play keep ball for large portions of that game.  We didn’t.

Exactly this, a decent team would have just kept hold of the ball and dragged the Coventry back line all over the place.
 

 We are incapable of keeping the ball unless it’s going across the back 4 several times and then either back to the keeper to punt upfield or one of the CB’s doing it, which was essentially passing the ball back to the opposition so they can have another go, that combined with our tactics of defending deeper and deeper and not being prepared to press high caused the inevitable outcome. So predictable and depressing

[GrahamC]

9 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

Coventry weren't vastly older and more experienced than the team we put out, Gray. They had a teenager and three 23-year-olds in their starting line-up.

In fact, apart from a few old heads like McFadzean and Godden most of their squad are in their early 20s.

We can't keep playing variations on the same 14 failing players though. Something's got to change.

If we get Joe Williams and Matty James back after the break, we MAY see an improvement. 

Ultimately, our ability to play 90+ minutes of football seems to have deserted us. Players look tired in the second half. We sit deep and baulk at anything physical in the last 20 minutes because we seem exhausted. Whether that's mental or physical I don't know, but something is rotten in the state of Denmark. Even the experienced players are starting to play as if they are overawed rookies. 

As @lenred says, what?

I mean we could bring in O’Leary, Bell, Benarous, Britton or if fit, Conway but I just can’t see that’s the answer. This mantra that they “can’t do any worse” doesn’t convince & playing more kids could ruin their confidence.

Beyond the blindingly obvious, having the likes of Atkinson, Baker, James, Williams & Semenyo back gives us alternatives. I don’t know what to do.

[lenred]

11 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

I think Nige needs help with coaching and may actually also need to bring in a top notch sports psychologist as we seem beaten when we walk out the tunnel. Given the number of injuries, we still need to look at various issues around that.  David Rennie has cut out the hamstring issues, but we don't seem very fit IMO.  Sometimes we look almost like amateurs playing professionals. 

If he needs help with coaching then that’s a pretty damning indictment imho of both his application for the role and the Boards acceptance of it.
Maybe Shakespeare will be available soon but I’d still not expect his presence (or another’s) presence to be imperative to our being more successful than we are currently. If it were then it should’ve been identified when NP was hired.  

Agree re fitness.  Not sure re psychology, I feel that that’s a major part of a manager’s role - especially one who is deemed a ‘manager’ and not an on the grass coach. Still feel we just need to get through the season by hook or crook and that we can’t do any better than NP. May be very wrong! 

Edited November 6, 2021 by lenred

[Red-Robbo]

2 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

As @lenred says, what?

I mean we could bring in O’Leary, Bell, Benarous, Britton or if fit, Conway but I just can’t see that’s the answer. This mantra that they “can’t do any worse” doesn’t convince & playing more kids could ruin their confidence.

Beyond the blindingly obvious, having the likes of Atkinson, Baker, James, Williams & Semenyo back gives us alternatives. I don’t know what to do.

To be honest, Semenyo has never convinced. Maybe he's a midfielder masquerading as a striker, but I doubt he'd help.

Baker or Atkinson gives us the option to drop Vyner, and as I wrote, James & Williams are the really crucial returnees providing a semblance of a spine in this team.

The problems go deeper than player selection though IMO, as I said in my reply to you and @lenred

[Rossi the Robin]

The shape was good first half and we really started to make a good home team run out of ideas.

We stopped pressing second half - I believe we thought keeping shape would be enough with an extra man, but ended up being not the case 

 

[Numero Uno]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

As 11 players v 10, do you think they haven’t prepared and organised them?  You maybe right about enthuse and motivate….in which case we have a shower of shit amongst our group of players at the club if they can only perform when enthused.  I didn’t need my manager to get me up for a game, I had personal pride.  DN f%%king A….my arse.  I would’ve been thinking here’s a chance to win 3,4,5.

Weak players.

Apparently this sort of attitude is old fashioned now...................why, who knows?

[Red-Robbo]

1 minute ago, lenred said:

If he needs help with coaching then that’s a pretty damning indictment imho. Maybe Shakespeare will be available soon but I’d still not expect his presence (or another’s) presence to be imperative to our being more successful than we are currently. If it were than it should’ve been identified when NP was hired.  Agree re fitness.  Not sure re psychology, feel that that’s a major part of a mangers role - especially one who is deemed a manager and not an on the grass coach. Still feel we just need to get through the season by hook or crook. 

 Re: Psychology. I believe we have one on the books, as do most clubs, not sure he/she is much kop to be honest, seeing as how heads fall at the first sign of adversity. 

Agree a good manager is 1,000,000% better than some bod with a degree in it though. It's where people like Cloughie and Ferguson excelled. 

Ultimately, with Pearson, you do have to wonder if:

A) His prior successes were largely down to coaches, coaches he doesn't have here &;

B) Is ill-health undermining how he performs here. Is he up to it? Mentally as well as physically?

Really surprised I'd ever need to ask those questions, but really surprised at how poor and unmotivated we've seemed since NP arrived. We thought we'd ejected all the unmotivated lot, but tho - the remainder are now looking equally out of sorts. 

 

[Cardy]

We got everything we deserved if the second half tactic was genuinely ‘to shut up shop’ against 10 men.

Absolutely pathetic, spineless & desireless leadership.

[Rob k]

2 hours ago, LondonBristolian said:

No offence meant by this but I suspect anyone who does not realise how interlinked confidence and motivation are has either been lucky enough not to experience low confidence in the work place or not perceptive enough to understand the impact when it happened.

So how does a coach ‘motivate’ his players? What does that look like? 
There has to be some self accountability and an attempt to motivate yourself to earn your wages and these players are not doing it.

[Lorenzos Only Goal]

I think after today this season until January is about being better than 3 other teams.  We have too many passengers and its starting to grate, even people you think are committed and playing well let you down the players just seem unaccountable, if we can move on a couple in Jan and buy a couple we might have the foundation of a team next season.  

 

Edited November 6, 2021 by Lorenzos Only Goal

[lenred]

13 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 Re: Psychology. I believe we have one on the books, as do most clubs, not sure he/she is much kop to be honest, seeing as how heads fall at the first sign of adversity. 

Agree a good manager is 1,000,000% better than some bod with a degree in it though. It's where people like Cloughie and Ferguson excelled. 

Ultimately, with Pearson, you do have to wonder if:

A) His prior successes were largely down to coaches, coaches he doesn't have here &;

B) Is ill-health undermining how he performs here. Is he up to it? Mentally as well as physically?

Really surprised I'd ever need to ask those questions, but really surprised at how poor and unmotivated we've seemed since NP arrived. We thought we'd ejected all the unmotivated lot, but tho - the remainder are now looking equally out of sorts. 

 

I think we got rid of those that we could as opposed to all of them. Squad is an absolute mess imo and I don’t see who could change it to be honest. I thought that the fundamentals would be massively improved by NP by now but it seems the squad that is left is really so bad that even that’s a stretch at the moment. Any thoughts on who / what will make it better other than backroom staff changes?

[Red-Robbo]

19 minutes ago, lenred said:

I think we got rid of those that we could as opposed to all of them. Squad is an absolute mess imo and I don’t see who could change it to be honest. I thought that the fundamentals would be massively improved by NP by now but it seems the squad that is left is really so bad that even that’s a stretch at the moment. Any thoughts on who / what will make it better other than backroom staff changes?

 

Another striker and a younger Korey Smith type shielding midfielder. The latter should prove not impossible to bring in, the former may require Nigel to shelve his aversion to the loan system and perhaps pull in a favour from his old contacts. I guess decent wingers would be nice as well, but we might have to wait until summer there.  

Unless the general malaise that hangs over the place is sorted though, whoever could come in will eventually wilt and sustain a talent-leak as we drag them down to our level.

Interesting people are speculating on possible ownership changes. The last thing you want is an owner interfering all the time and trying to pick the matchday squad etc, but the opposite, with a two-man board who seem totally invisible is probably nearly as bad. As a manager, you'll seem on your own, without help or support. In an ideal world, we would shake that structure up.

[Kibs]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Exactly, it’s bollocks….it’s rhetoric to suit a changing personal opinion that Pearson isn’t the man.  It’s all about trying to justify that change.

Easier to say, “I no longer think Nige is the man” than guesswork about motivation, half-time instruction, training ground dribbling discouraged etc, but when asked have no evidence for those comments, just personal opinion.

There is no harm in changing minds….I think it’s healthy to review, reflect and if you think it’s different, change your mind.

But how can anyone evidence it if they’re not watching training every day?

The only thing we can go on is performances on a Saturday. The same things could be levelled at you for your view. You’re almost assuming the quality of training is okay and but the performances on a Saturday are crap and it’s the players fault. The confidence is rock bottom - we now look like we did last season when Pearson couldn’t turn it around. 

I don’t know what the answer is, but I cannot believe that the players are as bad and unorganised as they are currently showing. 

You saw Ismael come into Barnsley  (I’m not saying that’s “the standard” btw) and they had looked poor. Suddenly they have an identity, a clear way of playing. You knew within weeks what the plan was. 

I just don’t feel that with Pearson. I don’t even know what sort of team we are trying to be. He’s had enough games to stamp some sort of identity.
 

[lenred]

13 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

Unless the general malaise that hangs over the place is sorted though, whoever could come in will eventually wilt and sustain a talent-leak as we drag them down to our level.

We were discussing this very point today.  It seems no matter who the manager is that talented players succumb to it.  Worrying trend and has been for a fair while. 

Edited November 6, 2021 by lenred

[Red-Robbo]

Just now, lenred said:

We were discussing this very point today.  It seems no matter who the manager is that talented players succumb to it.  Worrying trend  as has been for a fair while. 

 

With Johnson, he was sacked because he failed his performance target of getting us a Top 6 finish (repeatedly and by some margin) but the real demise of the club began as the Holden era progressed and hasn't really been halted in any way by Pearson. 

Money wasted on failed players in the past is a big part of the explanation for why we are where we are, but not all of it. It just seems like the people we've got here have got worse - both technically and motivationally.  Other clubs, similarly lacking in great players and often with histories of bad management and financial waste have squads that turn out professional performances.   Just look at Coventry. Years of poor ownership, ground uncertainty, 12 managers (including caretakers) in the last decade.  But they outplayed us, were better organised and wanted it more.   Not all that can be explained by our budget or by Mark Ashton's inadequacies. The manager and his deputy have to shoulder blame as well. 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Cardy said:

We got everything we deserved if the second half tactic was genuinely ‘to shut up shop’ against 10 men.

Absolutely pathetic, spineless & desireless leadership.

If that was the instruction, we carried it out very, very poorly indeed.

53 minutes ago, Kibs said:

But how can anyone evidence it if they’re not watching training every day?

The only thing we can go on is performances on a Saturday. The same things could be levelled at you for your view. You’re almost assuming the quality of training is okay and but the performances on a Saturday are crap and it’s the players fault. The confidence is rock bottom - we now look like we did last season when Pearson couldn’t turn it around. 

I don’t know what the answer is, but I cannot believe that the players are as bad and unorganised as they are currently showing. 

You saw Ismael come into Barnsley  (I’m not saying that’s “the standard” btw) and they had looked poor. Suddenly they have an identity, a clear way of playing. You knew within weeks what the plan was. 

I just don’t feel that with Pearson. I don’t even know what sort of team we are trying to be. He’s had enough games to stamp some sort of identity.
 

The point I’m making is that some are eluding to having that inside info, to justify their opinion.

Fair enough, but I’m not saying that training is great…. I’m also not stating something’s fact about what happens at Failand either.

All I’m trying to say is that you can change your mind about Nige without having to come out with pure conjecture to give your post a basis.