Desire / Determination - Fleming post-match

[Robin10]

4 hours ago, Supersonic Robin said:

Appreciate where you're coming from, but what evidence is there that Benarous is ready to contribute anything meaningful? (Same goes for some of the other younger players).

Benarous really really struggled to make any kind of positive impact vs Barnsley. By no means am I writing off the likes of Benarous, but you can't just assume that they'll be an improvement. 

 

[SouthS22]

Seems to me that there are many excuses being made here for poor coaching and management.  Are we really suggesting that the way the team is organised has nothing to do with how shockingly bad we are?  That the problem is a lack of concentration or application, or that somehow we’ve ended up with a group of players with serious personality shortcomings?  We are being outplayed week after week, even by 10 men for half a match today, we are dominated by other teams in terms of possession, we have no discernible pattern or style of play, and we often look like we don’t know what to do or how to play together. 

It’s the players fault.  It’s the Lansdowns fault.  It’s Mark Ashtons fault.  It’s Lee Johnson’s fault.  It’s the fault of Bristol,Sport. It’s Dean Holdens fault.  All no doubt are issues, but the truth is that Leadership is fundamentally important in all areas of life, and that most definitely includes football.  That’s  current leadership, not leadership that was in place 9 months ago.  You don’t need to be Nostradamus to know that if you haven’t got the right management in place for what needs to be managed, you will not succeed.  Anyone who is a manager knows that the buck stops there, and unfortunately It seems to me this buck has come to a horrible grinding halt.

Sometimes time and patience are needed, but sometimes what’s required is a change.  Confirmation bias anyone?

[Mr Popodopolous]

5 hours ago, billywedlock said:

You need players that can control a football to play a passing game . You also need players to show confidence and determination to impose themselves . We have just changed 2 coaches and in the last 2 games have shown increased passing attempts but completion levels are low .

this squad is not good enough fir a passing game . 

It's debatable. Certainly there is a difference between a passing game and what is an improvement on @Ostrich rightly describes as our awful possession play.

Bentley- Ball playing GK?

Tanner and DaSilva have their attributes, seem to recall the latter was technically quite good. Not sure about now though...

Atkinson and Kalas can play a high line, the former is of course a ball playing CB albeit developing. Think the latter in the right setup can have reasonable passing stats albeit in a conservative- 'safe' manner.

James, Williams and Massengo as a 3 if fit etc, seems reasonable arguably. Good in fact. Bakinson also has his uses with the ball, without it not so much.

Scott is an exciting young talent, so too is Semenyo.

Granted the forward line isn't so great technically although Martin can make the ball stick.

Pring?

Caveats:

1) Tanner is young and inexperienced at this level. So too is Atkinson frankly.

2) Kalas and some reasonable possession metrics? Not particularly expansive in this regard.

3) Is DaSilva the same post injuries? He missed half a season in 2019/20 alone and more has occurred since.

4) When will we get a full game with that CM 3 on the pitch? Let alone a run of games that see them build that cohesion and chemistry.

When indeed will we get a reasonable run with broadly our 1st choice 18?

5) For all that I said Semenyo and Scott are exciting, they still have much to learn.

6) Martin. I keep writing his fitness off and he keeps delivering, goal and assist today but, who knows maybe the need to manage him steadily was a myth?! 

I wonder about a theoretical front 3 but not strictly speaking front 3 of Scott wider right, Semenyo wider left and Weimann central for a while.

[Waconda]

9 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Or have self-motivated staff, that just need gentle direction here and there.

I’m glad my manager doesn’t need to manage 95% of the work I do.  I understand the guidelines, processes, my role in the team, because my manager is clear.  My manager then allows me to execute within those things above.  I don’t need “well done Dave”, I don’t need “have you done that yet Dave”.

Micro managing has nothing to do with improving motivation, if anything it harms it.

You say yourself "my manager is clear". I do not believe ours is.

Where is the game plan ?

What is our style of play ?

Are we trying to win games or not get beat ?

Who's on the bus ?

You cannot honestly say that looking at our last few games that the players look like a well drilled, organised and confident bunch. Continue that sort of poor practice for a time and the players will lose faith and motivation (human nature). Of course the players need to improve but they have to have sense of hope that things will improve or what they are being told will work.

I firmly believe it is possible to get more out of this group of players and will not simply write them off as lazy, useless deadwood.

Motivation is essential.

[Rob k]

31 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

Micro managing has nothing to do with improving motivation, if anything it harms it.

You say yourself "my manager is clear". I do not believe ours is.

Where is the game plan ?

What is our style of play ?

Are we trying to win games or not get beat ?

Who's on the bus ?

You cannot honestly say that looking at our last few games that the players look like a well drilled, organised and confident bunch. Continue that sort of poor practice for a time and the players will lose faith and motivation (human nature). Of course the players need to improve but they have to have sense of hope that things will improve or what they are being told will work.

I firmly believe it is possible to get more out of this group of players and will not simply write them off as lazy, useless deadwood.

Motivation is essential.

So what does motivation look like to you? What should NP be doing on the sidelines to ‘motivate’ 

 

[Bodiesaffer]

Once player power is removed from the mindset of these players. They will start to improve.  I have a feeling they don’t like the fact most of them are not in the mangers plans long term, so they are working on the easy way out.  No desire and drive to prove the manger and staff wrong.  

[oldstandrobin]

12 hours ago, Numero Uno said:

You are talking about confidence not motivation. Professional footballers really shouldn't need much in the way of motivation put into them. Too many people make excuses for players and pin everything on Managers. The individual mistakes we saw today are on the players, nobody else.

Footballers are a weird species in that many of them take £20K per week out of their Employer and then hide behind the Manager when they fail to do what they have been asked to do.

Nailed on

[Mr Popodopolous]

5 hours ago, Bodiesaffer said:

Once player power is removed from the mindset of these players.

How do you propose we do that exactly?

I'm sure people were thinking, saying the same last season. Perhaps prior seasons- certainly at the end of GJ's reign.

Hell I recall discussions about that set of players having seen off a certain number (can't recall how many) managers.

Back in the decline from the final few months under him to bottoming out. GJ, Coppell, Millen, McInnes and to an extent O'Driscoll? Although he did a lot of reform and heavy lifting.

Recurring issues? Or issue.

What exactly do you recommend?

[Bodiesaffer]

5 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

How do you propose we do that exactly?

I'm sure people were thinking, saying the same last season. Perhaps prior seasons- certainly at the end of GJ's reign.

Hell I recall discussions about that set of players having seen off a certain number (can't recall how many) managers.

Back in the decline from the final few months under him to bottoming out. GJ, Coppell, Millen, McInnes and to an extent O'Driscoll? Although he did a lot of reform and heavy lifting.

Recurring issues? Or issue.

What exactly do you recommend?

In my line of business, I just stop using subcontractors that don’t deliver.  Obviously this is a much harder situation being completely different industry with complicated contracts.  However, I’d try and bring in loans or new signings in Jan, once these new additions make the difference.  I’d make an example by putting the most likely culprits out on gardening leave.  

[Mr Popodopolous]

10 minutes ago, Bodiesaffer said:

In my line of business, I just stop using subcontractors that don’t deliver.  Obviously this is a much harder situation being completely different industry with complicated contracts.  However, I’d try and bring in loans or new signings in Jan, once these new additions make the difference.  I’d make an example by putting the most likely culprits out on gardening leave.  

Much harder in football as you say. I have to say, never heard of this strategy being applied to football players before, football itself seems like a fairly niche, unique sector in various ways. 

Gardening leave. The player is effectively being deregistered?

In this scenario. The cost of their wages unless we could offload them would still count towards that all important £39m loss limit. 

Maybe it would make if there are players who need it of course, they and the rest would sit up and take notice but I'm unsure how this works financially with rolling loss limits etc. 

I think the squad is 2-3 light regardless.

[Davefevs]

8 hours ago, VT05763 said:

Micro managing has nothing to do with improving motivation, if anything it harms it.

You say yourself "my manager is clear". I do not believe ours is.

Where is the game plan ?

What is our style of play ?

Are we trying to win games or not get beat ?

Who's on the bus ?

You cannot honestly say that looking at our last few games that the players look like a well drilled, organised and confident bunch. Continue that sort of poor practice for a time and the players will lose faith and motivation (human nature). Of course the players need to improve but they have to have sense of hope that things will improve or what they are being told will work.

I firmly believe it is possible to get more out of this group of players and will not simply write them off as lazy, useless deadwood.

Motivation is essential.

Perhaps we get Nige and the players to come out and tell us….honestly?

We had a game plan yesterday, that after 25 mins began to kick in.  We stopped doing the basics…the hard work that got us into the game, began to frustrate Coventry and led to us taking a ht lead, that might’ve even been 2-0 had Martin converted (good save Moore).

Absolutely, we look far from well-drilled.  We don’t play enough as a team.

But you are laying it back to a single source, the manager (and coaches).  I’m suggesting that you need to include players in that too….collective responsibility.  nobody is writing them off, but I see they are part of the problem too….collective responsibility.

We saw the benefits of tactical instruction bearing fruit yesterday, but not followed through in the second half.  I saw Massengo in the first half realise he wasn’t following the plan and reacting to that by filling back in to shape.

6 hours ago, Bodiesaffer said:

Once player power is removed from the mindset of these players. They will start to improve.  I have a feeling they don’t like the fact most of them are not in the mangers plans long term, so they are working on the easy way out.  No desire and drive to prove the manger and staff wrong.  

That is a situation that Nige needs to overcome.  I think he saw it last season.  He needs to keep some players onside.  However, just coming up with a scenario.  Do you wait til Jan 1st 2022 to tell a player you’d like to move him on in the window, or do you try and start the wheels in motion now?  It’s not an easy situation for player or manager, not sure there’s an optimum time.  Do you lie to them, tell them one thing and then go back on it?  I don’t know.  There are consequences of either approach.

In an ideal world he gets said players onside, develops them and changes his view of their worth  to the squad.  That hadn’t happened by the looks of it.

[steviestevieneville]

20 hours ago, VT05763 said:

It is the Manager and coaching staffs job to prepare, organise, enthuse and motivate the team. If they are claiming there is nothing they can do then either change the players you are talking about or accept you have failed and move over for someone else to have a go.

Players don't give up on Managers they have belief and confidence in.

This has been going on under 3 different managers . So how do you account for that. The players are weak mentally , bottlers . 

[Waconda]

12 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

This has been going on under 3 different managers . So how do you account for that. The players are weak mentally , bottlers . 

Maybe number 4 will do better.

[steviestevieneville]

5 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

Maybe number 4 will do better.

Is that your answer to everything ? It’s a culture within the club & has been for years. We’ve a reputation within the game as being a soft touch & you don’t change that overnight . Pearson’s well aware of it & needs to ship most of this spineless lot out. 
still waiting for the answer on how Ryan Lowe is going to come in & change everything & get us going. A manager with no championship experience. 

[Northern Red]

15 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

Maybe number 4 will do better.

And if they don't? Or the next one, or the one after that?

Maybe then the penny might drop.

[Numero Uno]

31 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

Maybe number 4 will do better.

Still advocating how other people should spend their money on your behalf then.......................

16 minutes ago, Northern Red said:

And if they don't? Or the next one, or the one after that?

Maybe then the penny might drop.

You can't educate pork.

[Numero Uno]

30 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

Is that your answer to everything ? It’s a culture within the club & has been for years. We’ve a reputation within the game as being a soft touch & you don’t change that overnight . Pearson’s well aware of it & needs to ship most of this spineless lot out. 
still waiting for the answer on how Ryan Lowe is going to come in & change everything & get us going. A manager with no championship experience. 

The worst bit is that clubs are now being completely open about it and aren't even hiding it. Stoke, Millwall, Birmingham and Coventry have all made comments about our lack of balls and fragile confidence. Every single team in that league will know what they have to try and do against us - we have no alternative way of playing to counter it either.

[Mr Popodopolous]

12 hours ago, JonDolman said:

It is mainly down to coaching imo. There had been no intent to pass the ball until more recently. We are playing teams that have passed the ball all season. No surprise we now don't look so good at it when it doesn't seem to have been worked on.

Swansea away at Coventry last week, 11 vs 11, Coventry could not get near them for most of the game, even with Swansea winning for almost the entire game so Coventry doing all they could to try and get back into the game, they were mostly frustrated running around trying to get the ball off of Swansea.

Against 10 men we could not pass the ball anything like Swansea could against Coventry's 11, or anything like how Coventry's 10 could pass against our 11.

There's also winning the ball back. Man City aren't dominating teams just because they pass the ball better. They are so good at making it hard for other teams to pass the ball and often win back possession quickly. Coventry with their 10 looked like they had more players. Robins knew at half time what system to use and had them very compact in the midfield, with 2 strikers working hard. The distances were just right. We couldn't even find space even having an extra man because of how well drilled they were and how clueless we are in possession.

I do think we have the players. It's just when our players have the ball they don't have the same amount of options as other teams. No one knows what the other is going to do. Does he want it into space or to feet, ahh I chose the wrong one and we lose possession. There's a lot of thinking going on trying to read what other teammates will do. Coventry just did what I expect they do as their way of playing has been drilled into them from day one. And like I said, these teams have been passing the ball all season. They're used to it.

Bentley made one awful throw yesterday and certainly seems to lose the ball a lot. But put him in goal for a team that has options to play to and I expect he'd be one of the better ball playing goalkeepers in the championship.

The back 4 yesterday and Bentley all very good technically. Or Dasilva better than Pring at controlling and passing the ball. Who is better than Dasilva at that in the championship? That's what his game is all about. Not doing it currently? No, he has no confidence with the ball at his feet, something I would never imagine saying. But then most others have not either.

Again like Bentley, put him in a team that is set up to pass the ball, Swansea, Coventry, Huddersfield etc. Doesn't have to be one of the top few teams. He will likely find his confidence again and look like the classy player we know he is.

Bakinson I thought played well yesterday. Him and Massengo are all about controlling and passing the ball. Get the set up right and they should do that all day long. If Massengo can't do it then why do people rate him so highly that he will go on to much better things than us? It's because of that technical ability he has. Alex Scott too. What a talent and I don't think our style is what these talented technical youngsters need in their development.

Up top I thought Martin was okay first half. Maybe one up top is the answer for now..he's obviously decent technically and strong. We don't have the 2 combination to play 2 strikers, as it seems to be Martin and one other and that one other doesn't work whether it's Weimann or Wells. Semenyo would probably link best with Martin when he is back if we do go with a 2. We have seen glimpses of a promising partnership there before.

So Martin has a 2 week break and comes back and sticks to that lone role for now and with defenders and midfielders returning, we can hopefully pick up enough points in that 4141 before maybe bringing in a new striker in January if the money is there.

We probably continue playing counter attacking like that first half. Nige says that's what we are best at. This squad can't go down, especially if we have Atkinson, Baker, James, Williams and Semenyo all playing after international break. It's not a relegation squad of players imo. I do think that might be where we are heading though.

Agree with a lot of what you say on the squad- I think we do have players who can play a more technical game than we are currently seeing- or at least one with more comfort in possession.

1. DaSilva- Agreed strong technically for sure, problem or concern I have- caveat if you like, is he the same post injury?
2. Martin- I keep expressing concern about if he can last a 46 game season and he keeps coming up with something! Yet at the same time, I remember last season, well we all do- he steadily and gradually became less effective over time, I have to wonder how he needs to be used and whether we are doing so correctly. Wrap him up in cotton wool to some extent over the next fortnight!

Man City, yes I agree it is how they press too but at the same time, is there not scope to rest in possession? Guardiola has spoken of this, referenced of this before albeit perhaps more in his past jobs- if you have 60-70% of the ball, or 60-65% being conservative, it stands to reason that your players will have a chance to rest and conserve some energy during some of that- and when you lose the ball, you can swarm the opposition. Whereas chasing the ball, or having to track- it's draining, physically, mentally and perhaps both. He also has a 5 second rule or had- again maybe more reference in his time at Barcelona but it's linked to the pressing side out of possession.

On a side note, talking of Guardiola and his side, I remember watching in late 2010 Espanyol v Barcelona. Peak Barcelona, talking very high levels but simply thought "They are that good in possession and that good out of it- how the hell do you overcome that"?

Back to us, hopefully some of these will be back post the International break- this is a time to really rest up and recuperate, to condition correctly, to strengthen correctly and to rest correctly.

Yeah, Martin definitely has good points- and his record this season is also good but I come back to the downside risk of fitness etc. Talking of this side of it, we have had 2 International breaks in about 3 months, and about to go into a 3rd.

We had 8 players out yesterday- following that International break, we- but so do the rest of the League- have 9 games in 44 days, well 43 for the rest probably, 44 as Millwall is on a Sunday. I think if the injuries were like this now and when it was warmer, what the hell will they be like with the relative intensity and colder weather in that 6 weeks or so?

Should also add, wondered about- when all fit- either:

Weimann and Semenyo as a pair, with the obvious upside that they could pull wider out of possession to track or press and negate the 2 v 1 risk.

That's no slight on Martin, and if anything Weimann-Martin-Semenyo should have strong consideration in a 4-3-3 but I worry if Martin would run out of steam a bit- he also turned 33 this week we shouldn't forget.

Edited November 7, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Waconda]

3 hours ago, Northern Red said:

And if they don't? Or the next one, or the one after that?

Maybe then the penny might drop.

What we do know is the current one is a disaster and League one will be far more expensive than at least having a go at saving ourselves. 

[Guest]

For now, who ever is picking the starting 11 needs to make some serious changes to the starting line up or the poor form/lack of confidence will continue.

The next window beckons to improve our squad but thats in hope really as reality says not much change will happen then.

Seems like its going to be touch and go wether or not we will still be in this div next season, we need to change things and soon if we are to survive this season.

[Davefevs]

4 hours ago, gl2 said:

For now, who ever is picking the starting 11 needs to make some serious changes to the starting line up or the poor form/lack of confidence will continue.

The next window beckons to improve our squad but thats in hope really as reality says not much change will happen then.

Seems like its going to be touch and go wether or not we will still be in this div next season, we need to change things and soon if we are to survive this season.

Out of interest, what kind of changes?  Will it help if James, Williams, Baker, and / or Semenyo are back after the break?  Assume Atkinson was minor and will be fit.  That’s half a team potentially.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Davefevs

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Out of interest, what kind of changes?  Will it help if James, Williams, Baker, and / or Semenyo are back after the break?  Assume Atkinson was minor and will be fit.  That’s half a team potentially.

I would give Bents "a rest" and play Max also Janneh, Palmer and Semenyo much more; we have no team spirit atm and continuing with the same old doesnt seem to be working too well. What possible harm could starting those 4 for example do? assumming they are available/fit.

Odowda as well should be played more than he has been, a match winner for sure, dispite his often drifting in and out of games.

Not saying for one minute these players will shoot us up the league but continuing our present course is madness.