Journeyman Defintion

[Red-Robbo]

53 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I want the next debate to be about the term “bang-average”.  It’s often used in a derogatory way, but surely it’s anything but?

 

There's been many a night I've settled for an average bang...  

[PHILINFRANCE]

2 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

Ultimately this has brought up an interesting discussion around etymology, language use, the drift of meaning and personal interpretation. 

My thoughts entirely.

I posted yesterday with my understanding as to the origin of the word, and I believe this to be correct.

Nevertheless, interpretations and meanings of words change with time, as you say; indeed, they also change due to geographical location (think fag) and context. This is what makes etymology so interesting - if one is that way inclined.

In so far as it concerns football, it appears to be widely (if, perhaps, erroneously) accepted that the term 'journeyman footballer' refers to a player of limited (average?) ability who has played for a number of clubs.

Steve Claridge, for example, played for numerous clubs throughout a long, if not particularly distinguished, career, which, by extension, required him to travel to numerous towns - an average, widely-travelled player; thus, by today's definition, a journeyman footballer. Our own Chris Martin, who has played for nine clubs, including loans, was described yesterday by the BBC as 'something of a journeyman', although, as he has scored 140 goals and received 17 international caps (3 goals), one might question as to whether he would only be considered 'average'.

Zlatan Ibrahimovic has also played for nine clubs, throughout Europe and The USA, scoring more than 500 goals and receiving 120 caps (and scoring 62 goals). I don't think I have ever heard anybody describe him as a 'journeyman footballer', however, despite being widely-travelled, thus giving credence to the idea that a journeyman footballer, as well as playing for a large number of clubs, must be of limited ability only.

Finally, still in a football context, I see that ex-City manager Roy Hodgson appears set to be named as Watford's new manager.

It is stated that this will be Roy's 17th club, in many different towns and countries, so he is widely-travelled by any definition.

In my opinion, Roy Hodgson is certainly a distinguished gentleman and, of course, was manager of both Switzerland and England for several years, albeit with only limited success as England's manager. Similarly, whilst Roy achieved success in Europe, he failed to win a trophy during his English club career.

So, Roy Hodgson CBE.

A distinguished gentleman who has enjoyed a long, if not particularly spectacular, career as a football manager; somewhat average, one might say (with tongue firmly in cheek).    

Would anybody really describe the average, widely-travelled Roy Hodgson as a 'journeyman football manager' ?

 

[ExiledAjax]

39 minutes ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

My thoughts entirely.

I posted yesterday with my understanding as to the origin of the word, and I believe this to be correct.

Nevertheless, interpretations and meanings of words change with time, as you say; indeed, they also change due to geographical location (think fag) and context. This is what makes etymology so interesting - if one is that way inclined.

In so far as it concerns football, it appears to be widely (if, perhaps, erroneously) accepted that the term 'journeyman footballer' refers to a player of limited (average?) ability who has played for a number of clubs.

Steve Claridge, for example, played for numerous clubs throughout a long, if not particularly distinguished, career, which, by extension, required him to travel to numerous towns - an average, widely-travelled player; thus, by today's definition, a journeyman footballer. Our own Chris Martin, who has played for nine clubs, including loans, was described yesterday by the BBC as 'something of a journeyman', although, as he has scored 140 goals and received 17 international caps (3 goals), one might question as to whether he would only be considered 'average'.

Zlatan Ibrahimovic has also played for nine clubs, throughout Europe and The USA, scoring more than 500 goals and receiving 120 caps (and scoring 62 goals). I don't think I have ever heard anybody describe him as a 'journeyman footballer', however, despite being widely-travelled, thus giving credence to the idea that a journeyman footballer, as well as playing for a large number of clubs, must be of limited ability only.

Finally, still in a football context, I see that ex-City manager Roy Hodgson appears set to be named as Watford's new manager.

It is stated that this will be Roy's 17th club, in many different towns and countries, so he is widely-travelled by any definition.

In my opinion, Roy Hodgson is certainly a distinguished gentleman and, of course, was manager of both Switzerland and England for several years, albeit with only limited success as England's manager. Similarly, whilst Roy achieved success in Europe, he failed to win a trophy during his English club career.

So, Roy Hodgson CBE.

A distinguished gentleman who has enjoyed a long, if not particularly spectacular, career as a football manager; somewhat average, one might say (with tongue firmly in cheek).    

Would anybody really describe the average, widely-travelled Roy Hodgson as a 'journeyman football manager' ?

 

What a lovely post. I could not summarise things better myself. 

If we are to have serious conversations on etymology then I think we have to dispense with the concept of being 'right' or 'wrong' about the meaning of a word. Rather we need to focus on common, historical, and novel interpretations, and consider how those are related.

I think as well that asking would 'anyone' use a word in one way or the other is dangerous as we've discovered in this thread that the use of certain words is greatly influenced by personal subjectivity.

To your examples above I would say that yes Claridge and Martin are journeymen. Zlatan is not, he has achieved too much, at too high a level, and would be better described as a mercenary. Hodgson I would say is certainly a journeyman manager, but I can understand some might see discrepancy between my use of the word for him but not for Zlatan.

On this subject, I have two books slated for purchase upon my next return to the UK, the first is Word Perfect by Susie Dent, and the second is Do You Speak Football? by Tom Williams.

Edited January 25, 2022 by ExiledAjax