3-5-2 not working

[The Swan and Cemetery]

Think defensively we look like a team that needs the accountability of man to man rather than zonal in open play. 3 at the back encourages a worst of all worlds hybrid (or at least seems to). Whilst 2 CB’s has risks, it does, obviously, free up another body to be somewhere else. Our LCB and RCB are often unwilling to drift wide to assist the LWB/RWB, despite everything indicating that we’d probably be better preventing crosses than dealing with them. Therefore sensible to shift that challenge (or at least try to), by moving to 3 CM rather than 2, giving freedom for the LCM and RCM to move across to help out the FBs. Reduces width when we’ve got the ball, but not sure we’ve scored many from WBs whipping in crosses, think a front 6 should be able to move defences around and we’ve shown enough to indicate we’re vastly better at playing through the middle than a year ago. 4-3-3 for me (plus a GK who is aware ‘patrol the edge of the box’ relates to 18 yards rather than 6).

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, The Swan and Cemetery said:

Whilst 2 CB’s has risks, it does, obviously, free up another body to be somewhere else.

This was Southgate’s problem with England.  His 2 CBs weren’t great, so let’s play an extra one…which meant taking a player out somewhere else.  He ultimately ended up with 3 CBs that weren’t great.

Sometimes the solution isn’t to have more bad thinking it will equal good.

[chinapig]

13 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

This was Southgate’s problem with England.  His 2 CBs weren’t great, so let’s play an extra one…which meant taking a player out somewhere else.  He ultimately ended up with 3 CBs that weren’t great.

Sometimes the solution isn’t to have more bad thinking it will equal good.

I certainly subscribe to the view that just adding a defender doesn't make you better at defending and I'm surprised that Nigel seems to think so. Kalas and Klose suit a back 4 better imo. If only we had a midfielder who was good at screening and dropping in between them though.

Mind you, England conceded only 2 goals at the Euros, neither from open play!

[chinapig]

32 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

True tbh. With players like that yoi can...sure at Barcelona eg that an occasional in-game Plan B would be as you say both full backs pushed high...Busquets drops and suddenly you have a back 3.

There's an interesting discussion on some of Pep's coaching methods on today's Guardian Football Weekly podcast btw.

People like to say that football is a simple game but at the professional level it really isn't and hasn't been for a very long time!

[Rocking Red Cyril]

10 hours ago, Tafkarmlf said:

Good question and the honest answer is not got a clue suggested rejigging the back  so Klose Sweeper esq. kalas in front and Vyner as effective DM. 

Allows Massengo to not drop so deep and use his energy further up the field. 

I don't think it's a total bust of a formation as like you say we can always score.  Small tweaks rather than overhauls. 

I think there is a lot in Vyner as DM. 

[miketh2nd]

I agree  with most that has been said in this thread and think Pearson would of changed if we had more fit midfielders.

I quite like how Moyes sets up West ham with the 4-2-3-1 formation , As quite easily with this formation it can be fluid from 4-2-3-1 to 4-3-3 attacking and 4-5-1 if needed. 

O'Leary 

 Kalas-- Klose--Pring-- Dasilva

 

Williams/Benarous(45 minutes each)--  Massengo

 

Weimann-- Scott-- Wells

 

Semenyo 

I don't like the lone striker up top but I can see this side creating chances whilst the defence looking stronger . 

 

[Waconda]

1 hour ago, miketh2nd said:

I agree  with most that has been said in this thread and think Pearson would of changed if we had more fit midfielders.

I quite like how Moyes sets up West ham with the 4-2-3-1 formation , As quite easily with this formation it can be fluid from 4-2-3-1 to 4-3-3 attacking and 4-5-1 if needed. 

O'Leary 

 Kalas-- Klose--Pring-- Dasilva

 

Williams/Benarous(45 minutes each)--  Massengo

 

Weimann-- Scott-- Wells

 

Semenyo 

I don't like the lone striker up top but I can see this side creating chances whilst the defence looking stronger . 

 

Can't play DaSilva as a LB in the Championship, he gets targeted with long diagonals.

WB or nothing sadly.

And Pring is not a CH in a 2, left side of a back 3 yes, can't waste Kalas as a RB.

If you want to play 4 at the back need to find an actual RB from somewhere.

                                Bentley

               RB?     Kalas     Klose     Pring

                     Williams     Massengo

                                Scott

                 Weimann            Wells

                             Semenyo

Perhaps, not keen myself but it's a free hit season so maybe give it a go !

Edited February 14, 2022 by VT05763

[Red-Robbo]

7 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

Can't play DaSilva as a LB in the Championship, he gets targeted with long diagonals.

WB or nothing sadly.

And Pring is not a CH in a 2, left side of a back 3 yes, can't waste Kalas as a RB.

If you want to play 4 at the back need to find an actual RB from somewhere.

                                Bentley

               RB?     Kalas     Klose     Pring

                     Williams     Massengo

                                Scott

                 Weimann            Wells

                             Semenyo

Perhaps, not keen myself but it's free hit season so maybe give it a go !

 

Would swap Massengo and Scott around meself, but given the constraints it's OK.  Cundy as RB?

[Waconda]

3 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

Would swap Massengo and Scott around meself, but given the constraints it's OK.  Cundy as RB?

Yep you could put Cundy at RB or Kalas and then Cundy at CH but you are then back in the realms of forcing players out of their best positions.

Think that is why NP has been playing a 3, historically he favours a back 4 I think.

[Red-Robbo]

11 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

Yep you could put Cundy at RB or Kalas and then Cundy at CH but you are then back in the realms of forcing players out of their best positions.

Think that is why NP has been playing a 3, historically he favours a back 4 I think.

 

TBH neither Scott and Massengo are not really defensive midfielders, so I think we've already sailed over that bridge. I don't know how Cundy would fare in that RB role over 90 minutes. It might be a step too far too soon, or it may work?

[The Bard]

I like the way we're playing at the moment as it provides half decent games and suits our available players.  

Trouble with 4 4 2 is we simply don't have decent wide midfield players.  No one like Bryan or Brownhill for example.  We've got weak wannabees like COD and the other suggested formations always have at least one player shoehorned into a position to make the team seem logical. 

4 3 3 would currently involve Vyner at RB (people who suggest Kalas need to put the crackpipe down).  If we had 1 or 2 more fit midfielders it would work, but until Williams is able to play every game or James is back, this isn't an option. 

I see the way we're playing currently as stress testing individuals, especially midfielders and defenders.  Long term I can see us changing to 4 4 2 but only once we've bought in 2 realistic long term options either side to augment Benarous and Scott.  We will do a lot of business in the summer, especially if Webster or Kelly being sold results in a but more financial freedom or we get good money for Massengo. It will be really interesting seeing where he goes with it.  I would be amazed to see any new contracts for COD, Vyner, Kalas, Dasilva or Bentley.  The last 4 plus Massengo will be for sale

[Davefevs]

49 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

Can't play DaSilva as a LB in the Championship, he gets targeted with long diagonals.

You can if you don’t ask him to play so narrow.  If you allow his to play a bit closer to touchline, it becomes a hopeful diag, prone to being intercepted, or over hit, or a long time in the air that you can adjust your defensive  position(s) horizontally.  it becomes a higher risk pass.  But you’ve also got to get pressure on the ball-player too.

Early season, when Atkinson was settling in Jay played narrower than normal, and I hoped they would sort distances out. We changed it up with Baker at LB for Cardiff and the few games after.  Then they both got injured soon after each other.

Jay is short, don’t get me wrong, but he’s proven (when properly fit) in previous seasons he can play LB and not get exposed.  That’s not to say he won’t get targeted, but he has held his own in the past…and I also see Klose happy to be drawn into wider areas than most CBs are usually.

 

[Waconda]

6 hours ago, Davefevs said:

You can if you don’t ask him to play so narrow.  If you allow his to play a bit closer to touchline, it becomes a hopeful diag, prone to being intercepted, or over hit, or a long time in the air that you can adjust your defensive  position(s) horizontally.  it becomes a higher risk pass.  But you’ve also got to get pressure on the ball-player too.

Early season, when Atkinson was settling in Jay played narrower than normal, and I hoped they would sort distances out. We changed it up with Baker at LB for Cardiff and the few games after.  Then they both got injured soon after each other.

Jay is short, don’t get me wrong, but he’s proven (when properly fit) in previous seasons he can play LB and not get exposed.  That’s not to say he won’t get targeted, but he has held his own in the past…and I also see Klose happy to be drawn into wider areas than most CBs are usually.

 

It's only this season that teams started doing the "obvious" against him and us.  Fairly sure it was Swansea and Preston who where the first to pepper his side with great success. This is one of those things that really just boils down to the basics.

Got to keep good distances along the back four, can't have him stationing himself on the touchline.

All the analysts will be aware and combine that with our general flaky defence versus any cross or set piece he will get shredded.

But maybe a lesser of evils and certainly the opposition will not have prepped for it the first game we change (until HT anyway !)

Interesting risk/reward situation.

Edited February 15, 2022 by VT05763

[Rocking Red Cyril]

9 hours ago, Tafkarmlf said:

Aye, think that's a view a few on here share  whether it will happen though is down to the boss. 

Reckon as we're safe got nothing to lose doing it though. 

Yrs , I know it would no doubt need change of formation and shape. But how many times are we out done from a runner or ball from midfield. An area Vyner at DM could poilce.

Just my thoughts 

[Cowshed]

18 hours ago, chinapig said:

Rarely that simple from Pep. You rarely see a conventional back 4 from him for a start.

For instance, sometimes he has both nominal full backs pushed into midfield. Other times Walker will be deeper and Cancelo is high up the pitch.

All sorts of variations going on, sometimes in the same game.

The players are following a pattern. There are very simple principles across the pitch. The team avoids having more than three players in a line across vertical and horizontal lines. The base formation to support their possession is 4-3-3. It creates more triangles and diamonds across the pitch to support the possession football. 

[Davefevs]

5 hours ago, VT05763 said:

It's only this season that teams started doing the "obvious" against him and us.  Fairly sure it was Swansea and Preston who where the first to pepper his side with great success. This is one of those things that really just boils down to the basics.

Got to keep good distances along the back four, can't have him stationing himself on the touchline.

All the analysts will be aware and combine that with our general flaky defence versus any cross or set piece he will get shredded.

But maybe a lesser of evils and certainly the opposition will not have prepped for it the first game we change (until HT anyway !)

Interesting risk/reward situation.

Certainly Swansea, but only second half when they pushed Laird on and Pring at LW got a bit “lost”.

Preston, Dasilva was sub.

But your last sentence is correct…everything is risk / reward…everything is cause and effect!

[Waconda]

14 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Certainly Swansea, but only second half when they pushed Laird on and Pring at LW got a bit “lost”.

Preston, Dasilva was sub.

But your last sentence is correct…everything is risk / reward…everything is cause and effect!

There were definitely 2 games where I saw Dasilva get ruined. Must have been Fulham ?

[Three Lions]

The team is not good enough to play three at the back. Its too complex for average players.

[Waconda]

24 minutes ago, Three Lions said:

The team is not good enough to play three at the back. Its too complex for average players.

No it isn't, I played in a back 3 for years at a level much lower than this.

Not in any shape or form "complex".

[Three Lions]

Too complex and too demanding for average players which is why City are struggling with basics. Top teams with quality do. Average dont.

[GrahamC]

17 hours ago, VT05763 said:

Can't play DaSilva as a LB in the Championship, he gets targeted with long diagonals.

WB or nothing sadly.

And Pring is not a CH in a 2, left side of a back 3 yes, can't waste Kalas as a RB.

If you want to play 4 at the back need to find an actual RB from somewhere.

                                Bentley

               RB?     Kalas     Klose     Pring

                     Williams     Massengo

                                Scott

                 Weimann            Wells

                             Semenyo

Perhaps, not keen myself but it's a free hit season so maybe give it a go !

The RB? Has to be Tanner but as I’ve said before it is an indictment of our squad that we are struggling without a lad who started the season in L2.

16 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

TBH neither Scott and Massengo are not really defensive midfielders, so I think we've already sailed over that bridge. I don't know how Cundy would fare in that RB role over 90 minutes. It might be a step too far too soon, or it may work?

Only got 11 minutes first team action to go on, but Cundy is the size of a tree & I don’t think it would be remotely fair to ask him to make his first start at this level out of position. He gets a go as a CB or is a sub for me.

[Cowshed]

2 hours ago, VT05763 said:

No it isn't, I played in a back 3 for years at a level much lower than this.

Not in any shape or form "complex".

Having three v four players means there are more variables to cover and players need broader qualities to cover tasks. 

The team is conceding a few (??) and that could mean the team is finding the shape complex. A sympton of players being overburdened by complexity is poor decision making and disorganisation - Bristol City may be displaying those behaviours. 

 

Edited February 15, 2022 by Cowshed

[Three Lions]

Twenty one goals conceded in the last eight games. Thirteen in six. Watertight this 3-5-2.

[BCFCGav]

I was playing around with some formations earlier and landed on a 4-4-2 diamond. I caveat this with my only experience of management is FIFA career mode (back to back titles with Liverpool). 
 

                       Bents

Kalas     Cundy        Klose   Pring

                    Williams

          Scott                HNM

                    Weimann

          Semenyo       Conway

Kalas to coach Cundy through, and Pring to cover for Klose’s lack of pace. Lots of movement and pace up top with Martin as a last 30 option. I don’t think Nige would go for it but it’s an idea.