at last the refs outfit have said SORRY,repeat SORRY

[Never to the dark side]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/60572525

[Mr Popodopolous]

We've received a load of terrible calls or dodgy ones- Frank Lampard's Everton moan and the day later it's an apology!

[Robbored]

13 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

We've received a load of terrible calls or dodgy ones- Frank Lampard's Everton moan and the day later it's an apology!

I remember LJ saying at Senior Reds that City had received 5 letters of apologies after some very dodgy refereeing decisions went against us and he quite rightly pointed out that the apologies meant nothing - the lost points is what’s really matters.

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 minutes ago, Robbored said:

I remember LJ saying at Senior Reds that City had received 5 letters of apologies after some very dodgy refereeing decisions went against us and he quite rightly pointed out that the apologies meant nothing - the lost points is what’s really matters.

Thanks, I meant a few this season but yes I recall reading some references in the local media- as you rightly say, means little- bit late by then!

[Curr Avon]

27 minutes ago, Never to the dark side said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/60572525

You've got to hand it to them! 

[Davefevs]

25 minutes ago, Robbored said:

I remember LJ saying at Senior Reds that City had received 5 letters of apologies after some very dodgy refereeing decisions went against us and he quite rightly pointed out that the apologies meant nothing - the lost points is what’s really matters.

Anyone know whether this an “official” table of bad refereeing decisions…LJ referred to there being one, but I was a bit cynical about whether he was telling the truth or not?

[Robbored]

44 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Anyone know whether this an “official” table of bad refereeing decisions…LJ referred to there being one, but I was a bit cynical about whether he was telling the truth or not?

Richard Latham had said the same thing when he was speakers at Senior Reds before LJ had mentioned it. I certainly believed it.

[1960maaan]

55 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Anyone know whether this an “official” table of bad refereeing decisions…LJ referred to there being one, but I was a bit cynical about whether he was telling the truth or not?

It's LJ so .....

On a serious note.
There are assessors at every game, me opinion is (and that's all it is) they must keep track of errors or poor games. In that respect there must be a sort of League table, if only to highlight the good ones  so they can possibly move on to bigger and better things.

Imagine you could get hold of those reports. It would either be Sudoku's where they don't care how bad the Ref is at League level. Or it would be a page of marker pen WTF !

[Midred]

1 hour ago, Curr Avon said:

You've got to hand it to them! 

Red cards all round!

[1960maaan]

Neither referee Paul Tierney nor video assistant referee Chris Kavanagh deemed it was worthy of a spot-kick despite complaints from fans and Everton boss Frank Lampard.

I think that this is more than a little unfair. Tierney had one look, through a crowd of players at full speed. 
I lay all the blame with Kavanagh, he spent about 5 minutes watching and re watching. He was obviously unsure, he should have got the Ref to look. Very poor from VAR again.

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Anyone know whether this an “official” table of bad refereeing decisions…LJ referred to there being one, but I was a bit cynical about whether he was telling the truth or not?

 

1 hour ago, 1960maaan said:

It's LJ so .....

On a serious note.
There are assessors at every game, me opinion is (and that's all it is) they must keep track of errors or poor games. In that respect there must be a sort of League table, if only to highlight the good ones  so they can possibly move on to bigger and better things.

Imagine you could get hold of those reports. It would either be Sudoku's where they don't care how bad the Ref is at League level. Or it would be a page of marker pen WTF !

There are two definitely and one more potentially that I recall...

Sure he mentioned an apology letter post Aston Villa away in 2019, also I remember Burton at home in 2017- ie the 2016/17 season and I very vaguely recall although in the latter not the specifics of the incidents, Wolves away December 2016 that same season being mentioned- one thing that stands out for me in that 2018/19 one was wrongly disallowed or very tightly disallowed goals for offside for Weimann...3 perhaps, maybe more!

[Rocking Red Cyril]

Yes was away wolves that year seem to remember something as to what you say 

[Rocking Red Cyril]

6 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Anyone know whether this an “official” table of bad refereeing decisions…LJ referred to there being one, but I was a bit cynical about whether he was telling the truth or not?

Dave are you doubting LJ' s word as not truthfull

[Miah Dennehy]

I think everyone in football - fans, players, managers the lot- need to start accepting that referees will make mistakes, everyone does, it's part of life. 

Either that or we can VAR every decision to death and make football even more tedious that it is already in danger of becoming.

Another , slightly more radical idea, is to tell players to stop ******* cheating thereby making the poor old ref's job a whole lot easier.

Anyone who doesn't see a link between the continual micro analysing of every decision given and the abuse of teenage kids learning to be refs on a Sunday morning is ever so slightly deluded/******* stupid.

[Davefevs]

27 minutes ago, Miah Dennehy said:

I think everyone in football - fans, players, managers the lot- need to start accepting that referees will make mistakes, everyone does, it's part of life. 

Either that or we can VAR every decision to death and make football even more tedious that it is already in danger of becoming.

Another , slightly more radical idea, is to tell players to stop ******* cheating thereby making the poor old ref's job a whole lot easier.

Anyone who doesn't see a link between the continual micro analysing of every decision given and the abuse of teenage kids learning to be refs on a Sunday morning is ever so slightly deluded/******* stupid.

Agree Miah.

But also think that now they are professionals their standards must improve too.  I think they need to improve their communication both on the pitch (to players and fans) and also post-match too, rather than the aloof stance they currently take.

[KegCity]

1 hour ago, Miah Dennehy said:

I think everyone in football - fans, players, managers the lot- need to start accepting that referees will make mistakes, everyone does, it's part of life. 

Either that or we can VAR every decision to death and make football even more tedious that it is already in danger of becoming.

Another , slightly more radical idea, is to tell players to stop ******* cheating thereby making the poor old ref's job a whole lot easier.

Anyone who doesn't see a link between the continual micro analysing of every decision given and the abuse of teenage kids learning to be refs on a Sunday morning is ever so slightly deluded/******* stupid.

In fairness to Everton, that decision went to VAR and they still managed to get it wrong. 

Don't disagree with any of your points tho, although referees have received a lot of abuse since before the introduction of VAR.

[1960maaan]

14 minutes ago, KegCity said:

In fairness to Everton, that decision went to VAR and they still managed to get it wrong. 

Don't disagree with any of your points tho, although referees have received a lot of abuse since before the introduction of VAR.

This is the main problem for me, you end up Refereeing by committee .
While most of the game is run by the man on the pitch, you get decisions taken over by the guy with the TV, who may have slightly different interpretations of the rules.
The Everton one is a great example. It took so long, that the decision was clearly not obvious, and so should have gone back to the man who is supposed to be Reffing the game. At least if he looks and doesn't give it, then at least the game has one man making the calls. 
Most, if not all  of the problems with VAR, are with interpretation & implementation .

[Davefevs]

15 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

While most of the game is run by the man on the pitch, you get decisions taken over by the guy with the TV, who may have slightly different interpretations of the rules.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

[Cowshed]

1 hour ago, Miah Dennehy said:

I think everyone in football - fans, players, managers the lot- need to start accepting that referees will make mistakes, everyone does, it's part of life. 

Either that or we can VAR every decision to death and make football even more tedious that it is already in danger of becoming.

Another , slightly more radical idea, is to tell players to stop ******* cheating thereby making the poor old ref's job a whole lot easier.

Anyone who doesn't see a link between the continual micro analysing of every decision given and the abuse of teenage kids learning to be refs on a Sunday morning is ever so slightly deluded/******* stupid.

In our own Avon Youth League the regional FA has been withdrawing referees from kids games at U12 level. Entire leagues have been told they will have no refs on weekends because of the abuse and threats refs including children are receiving.

Refeering in this Country is in crisis nationally. 

There is a link to the constant criticism refs receive in the media to what occurs at grass roots level. The FA should be telling the whiny Lampards, coaches, players, the pundits that you are adding to a refereeing crisis and your behaviour is contributing to the abuse of children refereeing games. 

[Bazooka Joe]

21 hours ago, Robbored said:

I remember LJ saying at Senior Reds that City had received 5 letters of apologies after some very dodgy refereeing decisions went against us and he quite rightly pointed out that the apologies meant nothing - the lost points is what’s really matters.

Yeh, literally pointless apologies.

[Miah Dennehy]

1 hour ago, Cowshed said:

In our own Avon Youth League the regional FA has been withdrawing referees from kids games at U12 level. Entire leagues have been told they will have no refs on weekends because of the abuse and threats refs including children are receiving.

Refeering in this Country is in crisis nationally. 

There is a link to the constant criticism refs receive in the media to what occurs at grass roots level. The FA should be telling the whiny Lampards, coaches, players, the pundits that you are adding to a refereeing crisis and your behaviour is contributing to the abuse of children refereeing games. 

It was big problem when I was involved in kids football (10-20 years ago now) and it isn't getting any better. As far as I can see the 'Respect' campaign is next to useless, parents and coaches questioning/intimidating teenage referees continues. At grass roots level, I think more people have to challenge the people challenging the ref (if that makes sense) and pundits , Players and managers need to look at their own behaviour at the professsional level.

[downendcity]

3 hours ago, Miah Dennehy said:

I think everyone in football - fans, players, managers the lot- need to start accepting that referees will make mistakes, everyone does, it's part of life. 

Either that or we can VAR every decision to death and make football even more tedious that it is already in danger of becoming.

Another , slightly more radical idea, is to tell players to stop ******* cheating thereby making the poor old ref's job a whole lot easier.

Anyone who doesn't see a link between the continual micro analysing of every decision given and the abuse of teenage kids learning to be refs on a Sunday morning is ever so slightly deluded/******* stupid.

Going back pre VAR, I think one of the problems was that with increasingly more at stake ( mainly money!) players and managers were not prepared to accept that referees would make mistakes and this caused the ever increasing pressure for the introduction of technology to “help” referees.

The introduction of goal line technology seemed to herald a new dawn, but this was over black and white decisions i.e. was it over the line or not ( with the exception of the Sheff U v Villa incident)

VAR, however, brought with it human judgement and that seems to be where all the problems lie. That glaring mistakes still happen when VAR has been involved, makes the situation worse, not better, than before. 

I suspect that while most of us can accept that referees will make mistakes because of the pace of the game, poor view of an incident and that players have become ever more adept at kidding refs, there should be absolutely no excuse for the VAR ref, who has the luxury of slio-mo repeats and from every conceivable angle. If ever there was an incident that reeks of being a clear and obvious error, it was the Man City handball and the fact that it was’t even referred back to the on field ref is the worse aspect of the incident, as there is a real danger of final decisions increasingly being made by the remote VAR ref.

There should be concern that refs will, if they have not already started to do, abdicate responsibility for contentious decisions, relying on VAR to “bail them out” and that VAR will become the focus for criticism, rather than the man in black ( or white/yellow/whatever colour they now wear!).

[Cowshed]

8 minutes ago, Miah Dennehy said:

It was big problem when I was involved in kids football (10-20 years ago now) and it isn't getting any better. 

Kids football has lost a third of its referees in less than ten years. Ten years ago there were thirty thousand plus refs now its twenty two/three thousand and dropping.  

There was detail collated across national FA's on the abuse of refs. Top was England. Nowhere in Europe are grass roots refs more likely to be abused, intimidated and worse than England.  The % v the Netherlands was 40% higher.

10 minutes ago, Miah Dennehy said:

 As far as I can see the 'Respect' campaign is next to useless, parents and coaches questioning/intimidating teenage referees continues. 

Its worse than that at local grass rooots level. I cant go into specfics but things go beyond intimidating. Local here is everywhere, every regional FA sees widespread  poor behaviour at grass roots level.

 

14 minutes ago, Miah Dennehy said:

 At grass roots level, I think more people have to challenge the people challenging the ref (if that makes sense) 

I have reported a U12 Manager who was in his forties for abusing a fourteen year old ref. 

Challenge can be difficult.

There are parents at some clubs drinking on the pitchside at kids games. Pissing it up while kids games are on! 

I know one coach who challenged a parent and the police had to be called to protect the coach. The game was U10. 

 

18 minutes ago, Miah Dennehy said:

 As far as I can see the 'Respect' campaign is next to useless, parents and coaches questioning/intimidating teenage referees continues.

Players and managers need to look at their own behaviour at the professsional level.

The respect campaign has to include all. It has codes of conduct but they do not apply to all levels. No codes for the pro game. 

The disrespect shown to refs at the zenith of the game contributes to the behaviour at every level. Players and Managers and players need to look at their own behaviour, but the game and authority should be reflecting their behaviour and its impact back at them. Pundits should be reminded that their words actually can have impact elsewhere, kids mimic the behaviour of stars and look at pundits as authority .. The pundits who very very frequently preach on TV about the rules of the game they do always understand, and pundits who condone cheating. 

[Cowshed]

12 minutes ago, downendcity said:

Going back pre VAR, I think one of the problems was that with increasingly more at stake ( mainly money!) players and managers were not prepared to accept that referees would make mistakes and this caused the ever increasing pressure for the introduction of technology to “help” referees.

The introduction of goal line technology seemed to herald a new dawn, but this was over black and white decisions i.e. was it over the line or not ( with the exception of the Sheff U v Villa incident)

VAR, however, brought with it human judgement and that seems to be where all the problems lie. That glaring mistakes still happen when VAR has been involved, makes the situation worse, not better, than before. 

I suspect that while most of us can accept that referees will make mistakes because of the pace of the game, poor view of an incident and that players have become ever more adept at kidding refs, there should be absolutely no excuse for the VAR ref, who has the luxury of slio-mo repeats and from every conceivable angle. If ever there was an incident that reeks of being a clear and obvious error, it was the Man City handball and the fact that it was’t even referred back to the on field ref is the worse aspect of the incident, as there is a real danger of final decisions increasingly being made by the remote VAR ref.

There should be concern that refs will, if they have not already started to do, abdicate responsibility for contentious decisions, relying on VAR to “bail them out” and that VAR will become the focus for criticism, rather than the man in black ( or white/yellow/whatever colour they now wear!).

Football rules include the subjective. Error and disagreement has to be a consequence. Refs will not all agree with your verdict on the Man City handball. Clear and obvious would be below the elbow, and it wasn't. Above the elbow has elements of the subjective. 

[Miah Dennehy]

5 hours ago, Cowshed said:

Kids football has lost a third of its referees in less than ten years. Ten years ago there were thirty thousand plus refs now its twenty two/three thousand and dropping.  

There was detail collated across national FA's on the abuse of refs. Top was England. Nowhere in Europe are grass roots refs more likely to be abused, intimidated and worse than England.  The % v the Netherlands was 40% higher.

Its worse than that at local grass rooots level. I cant go into specfics but things go beyond intimidating. Local here is everywhere, every regional FA sees widespread  poor behaviour at grass roots level.

 

I have reported a U12 Manager who was in his forties for abusing a fourteen year old ref. 

Challenge can be difficult.

There are parents at some clubs drinking on the pitchside at kids games. Pissing it up while kids games are on! 

I know one coach who challenged a parent and the police had to be called to protect the coach. The game was U10. 

 

The respect campaign has to include all. It has codes of conduct but they do not apply to all levels. No codes for the pro game. 

The disrespect shown to refs at the zenith of the game contributes to the behaviour at every level. Players and Managers and players need to look at their own behaviour, but the game and authority should be reflecting their behaviour and its impact back at them. Pundits should be reminded that their words actually can have impact elsewhere, kids mimic the behaviour of stars and look at pundits as authority .. The pundits who very very frequently preach on TV about the rules of the game they do always understand, and pundits who condone cheating. 

I do understand that not everyone is comfortable to challenge and confront, but normally there is at least one person who has it in them and once one person does it, if others support them, loudmouths will often consider their behaviour. No one should be scared to stand up for what is right, most people will back you.