Throw ins

[Jerseybean]

Think this topic has been discussed on here before. I’m astonished by how poor we are when we have a thrown in, typically we lose the ball or end up going backwards. Yesterday their first goal came from us conceding the ball from our throw in! 

[bcfc01]

46 minutes ago, Jerseybean said:

Think this topic has been discussed on here before. I’m astonished by how poor we are when we have a thrown in, typically we lose the ball or end up going backwards. Yesterday their first goal came from us conceding the ball from our throw in! 

We've been dreadful at throw-ins for a long time.

I was hoping we'd improve this season, but when I saw Atkinson taking one against Sunderland in their half, with Naismith thinking it would be a good idea to try to receive the throw, it was a forlorn hope. Two centre backs out of position FFS, schoolboy stuff. Seconds later we concede with everyone blaming Vyner who was left defending on his own.

Yesterday I noted Vyner taking throws with no one covering his position. Again, schoolboy stuff.

 

Edited September 18, 2022 by bcfc01

[joe jordans teeth]

The lack of movement from throw ins is awful so it’s often thrown within a few yards backwards and puts the receiver under pressure,shows how far we have come in a short space of time though when 3 or 4 years ago we were all moaning about having 1 shot a game 

[spudski]

2 hours ago, Jerseybean said:

Think this topic has been discussed on here before. I’m astonished by how poor we are when we have a thrown in, typically we lose the ball or end up going backwards. Yesterday their first goal came from us conceding the ball from our throw in! 

It has improved believe it or not...it's something that's been a bug bear of mine the last few years.

However yesterday was a prime example of going back to bad habits.

Throw ins offensively and defensively, also more infuriatingly 'symbolic' defending of crosses. Sticking a leg out and giving two yards...really? It's been notable for a while. Hence why opposition teams probe those areas... especially DaSilva.

[Sir Geoff]

About the only thing I agree with FBC and Ian Gay. All we normally do is throw the ball down the line in the hope of gaining some ground. That is parks football mentality. Watch some of the better teams they throw it infield and open up the play that way.

[Pezo]

This feels like it's been a problem for about 35 years. Do other clubs fans have the same observation? What I mean is is it just something all clubs don't care about because of the low probability of scoring from a throw in so time is spent practicing and defending other things?

[Renaissance Williams]

26 minutes ago, Pezo said:

This feels like it's been a problem for about 35 years. Do other clubs fans have the same observation? What I mean is is it just something all clubs don't care about because of the low probability of scoring from a throw in so time is spent practicing and defending other things?

We used to score when Hörður threw it long into the box. You’d have thought someone could learn the trick at our expensive High Performance Centre!

[Cowshed]

51 minutes ago, Pezo said:

This feels like it's been a problem for about 35 years. Do other clubs fans have the same observation? What I mean is is it just something all clubs don't care about because of the low probability of scoring from a throw in so time is spent practicing and defending other things?

 It’s a consideration of team intent. 

The probability of losing possession in challenging areas impacts decisions. Throwing the ball up the line keeps the team in a defensive shape. There the primary focus is not retaining possession because players won’t be in relational distances to the ball to receive and retrain it, they will be in positions to defend the ball.

Possession based teams will behave differently because the focus from throw ins is possession, and the opportunity this provides v the impact (fear) of losing the ball.

Training. Throw ins are not necessarily a other thing. The relational distances of wanting to keep the ball are little different to goal kicks and free kicks. Angles, diamonds, triangles are superior to flat and vertical if you want to keep the ball consistently., 

[Port Said Red]

34 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

 It’s a consideration of team intent. 

The probability of losing possession in challenging areas impacts decisions. Throwing the ball up the line keeps the team in a defensive shape. There the primary focus is not retaining possession because players won’t be in relational distances to the ball to receive and retrain it, they will be in positions to defend the ball.

Possession based teams will behave differently because the focus from throw ins is possession, and the opportunity this provides v the impact (fear) of losing the ball.

Training. Throw ins are not necessarily a other thing. The relational distances of wanting to keep the ball are little different to goal kicks and free kicks. Angles, diamonds, triangles are superior to flat and vertical if you want to keep the ball consistently., 

The best exponent we had of this was Gerry Sweeney. He seemed to have the knack of throwing the ball at such an angle that the defender could only head it into touch again. I couldn't count the number of times he would work us from one end of the pitch to the other through a series of 3 or 4 throws.

As you say, the risk to reward is good and it's difficult for teams to turn the ball over.

It worked well in that era as Alan Dicks was one of the leading proponents of possession based football in the country.

Edited September 19, 2022 by Port Said Red

[maxjak]

Liverpool FC actually employ a specialist "throw in" coach, from what I understand?  At first this may seem faintly absurd, but considering how vitally important "throw ins" can be to attacks and defence, it seems a pretty smart move.  All sides look for ANY advantage they can muster, and "throw ins"     often seem to be an afterthought or a neglected aspect of the game?.

From what can be analysed, it would appear that   we are not only wasteful, but also vulnerable and shortsighted, regarding this feature, and it goes without saying that we have conceded goals purely as a result of not using our "throw ins" positively.  It needs to be addressed, and if any coach is worth his salt, he will concentrate on improving our mindset and approach to this important   issue?     I have rambled on enough........when all i really need to say is..............."Get your Pheckin Act Together!!"

Edited September 19, 2022 by maxjak

[Rocking Red Cyril]

11 hours ago, maxjak said:

Liverpool FC actually employ a specialist "throw in" coach, from what I understand?  At first this may seem faintly absurd, but considering how vitally important "throw ins" can be to attacks and defence, it seems a pretty smart move.  All sides look for ANY advantage they can muster, and "throw ins"     often seem to be an afterthought or a neglected aspect of the game?.

From what can be analysed, it would appear that   we are not only wasteful, but also vulnerable and shortsighted, regarding this feature, and it goes without saying that we have conceded goals purely as a result of not using our "throw ins" positively.  It needs to be addressed, and if any coach is worth his salt, he will concentrate on improving our mindset and approach to this important   issue?     I have rambled on enough........when all i really need to say is..............."Get your Pheckin Act Together!!"

Maxjak for throw in coach. 

NP here is your man

 

 

 

Edited September 19, 2022 by Rocking Red Cyril
I type shit

[spudski]

NP has spoken in the past (last season? )about how we need to improve our throw ins, and that they were aware and working on it in training.

He spoke about how disappointed he was when Sunderland scored their second against us last month, when we lost possession from our own throw in.

Same again against Burnley. So two goals conceded this season from losing possession from our own throw ins, and not defending them well when doing so.

The secret I guess is not to make it a 50/50 ball.

Also positioning away from the receiver. As in...Leaving yourself too open if you lose possession.

 

 

[The Journalist]

Many of you will have watched a lot more of us and studied this much more closely than I have, I'm sure, but I did think our throw-ins were so poor down our right side against Norwich.

There's a good chance Mark Sykes has never had to take throw-ins in his career before and it was pretty clear he wasn't particularly comfortable doing so.

It's funny that they're never really talked about, but when you think about it they're such an important and fundamental part of full-back/wing-back's game.

[Leveller]

On 18/09/2022 at 19:06, Sir Geoff said:

About the only thing I agree with FBC and Ian Gay. All we normally do is throw the ball down the line in the hope of gaining some ground. That is parks football mentality. Watch some of the better teams they throw it infield and open up the play that way.

Surely throwing the ball down the line is actually a defensive tactic - ie it minimises the risk of losing the ball in a dangerous place. Throwing the ball infield maximises that risk. Free kicks are different because the opponent has to stay 10 yards away. I imagine all teams lose possession from throw ins at a fairly high percentage because of this. So a throw in at 90 degrees from the line is a bit like a sideways pass across the pitch when it is very crowded - risky.

[spudski]

32 minutes ago, The Journalist said:

Many of you will have watched a lot more of us and studied this much more closely than I have, I'm sure, but I did think our throw-ins were so poor down our right side against Norwich.

There's a good chance Mark Sykes has never had to take throw-ins in his career before and it was pretty clear he wasn't particularly comfortable doing so.

It's funny that they're never really talked about, but when you think about it they're such an important and fundamental part of full-back/wing-back's game.

I guess it's more to do with keeping shape away from the throw in taker.

After Kalas, Vyner has the longest throw at the Club.

If you can create space and angles, balls to feet would be more favourable than 50/50 head height throw ins. 

[Davefevs]

42 minutes ago, The Journalist said:

Many of you will have watched a lot more of us and studied this much more closely than I have, I'm sure, but I did think our throw-ins were so poor down our right side against Norwich.

There's a good chance Mark Sykes has never had to take throw-ins in his career before and it was pretty clear he wasn't particularly comfortable doing so.

It's funny that they're never really talked about, but when you think about it they're such an important and fundamental part of full-back/wing-back's game.

For info, here’s 4 teams throw-in stats…very high level.

Two passing teams…Swansea and Burnley, ourselves, and Rotherham, who are direct.

I think what we are missing from the debate is where on the pitch our throw-ins are taken from and their success.  If we watch our throws in the attacking third, we are generally getting ball into players with good movement and retaining possession…I think we have improved massively in this area.  If we are talking about throw-ins deep in our defensive third, then the objective is quite possibly to get the ball further away from our goal into positions where we can fight a 50:50 somewhere else.  Whether that’s the right approach or not is not my call.

[maxjak]

11 hours ago, Rocking Red Cyril said:

Maxjak for throw in coach. 

NP here is your man

 

 

 

No.........Thomas Grannemark is the man?  Well worth employing him, if only for a couple of weeks?  He has been specialising in throw in techniques for the past 18 years.   Danish side MIdjytilannd are great exponents, and it has been estimated that the year they won the Danish league, over 10 -   of their goals originated from throw ins?  He points out numerous occasions when teams have conceded from poor throw ins?   Basically every team looks for advantages, and adding good efficient,, well thought out throw in routines and techniques can add to that armoury, in defence and attack?

We have already conceded at least 2 goals already this season due to poor throw ins?  Why not look at answers, and solutions instead of just making do?  it is a professional game, that needs professional approaches in every aspect of the game...........even the seemingly mundane?

Edited September 20, 2022 by maxjak

[Davefevs]

44 minutes ago, maxjak said:

No.........Thomas Grannemark is the man?  Well worth employing him, if only for a couple of weeks?  He has been specialising in throw in techniques for the past 18 years.   Danish side MIdjytilannd are great exponents, and it has been estimated that the year they won the Danish league, over 10 -   of their goals originated from throw ins?  He points out numerous occasions when teams have conceded from poor throw ins?   Basically every team looks for advantages, and adding good efficient,, well thought out throw in routines and techniques can add to that armoury, in defence and attack?

We have already conceded at least 2 goals already this season due to poor throw ins?  Why not look at answers, and solutions instead of just making do?  it is a professional game, that needs professional approaches in every aspect of the game...........even the seemingly mundane?

The man himself sent me a very nice DM on twitter after some throw-in analysis I did for City v Millwall (FAC) a couple of seasons back.

FWIW, we’ve scored from a throw-in this season too.

Edited September 20, 2022 by Davefevs

[spudski]

1 hour ago, maxjak said:

No.........Thomas Grannemark is the man?  Well worth employing him, if only for a couple of weeks?  He has been specialising in throw in techniques for the past 18 years.   Danish side MIdjytilannd are great exponents, and it has been estimated that the year they won the Danish league, over 10 -   of their goals originated from throw ins?  He points out numerous occasions when teams have conceded from poor throw ins?   Basically every team looks for advantages, and adding good efficient,, well thought out throw in routines and techniques can add to that armoury, in defence and attack?

We have already conceded at least 2 goals already this season due to poor throw ins?  Why not look at answers, and solutions instead of just making do?  it is a professional game, that needs professional approaches in every aspect of the game...........even the seemingly mundane?

Some analysis has been done in recent years. Quoted is the analysis of throw ins for the Prem in 2018-19. Note the conclusion on backwards and lateral throw ins compared to long and forward throw ins. Surprising...

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International Journal of Sports Science & Coaching

Impact Factor: 2.0295-Year Impact Factor: 2.294

 

 

 

The undervalued set piece: Analysis of soccer throw-ins during the English Premier League 2018–2019 season

Joseph Antony Stone https://orcid.org/0000-0002-9861-4443 joseph.stone@shu.ac.uk, Adam Smith, and Anthony BarryView all authors and affiliations

Volume 16, Issue 3

https://doi.org/10.1177/1747954121991447

• Related content

  Similar articles:Set pieces in soccer (i.e., free kicks and corners) have been examined in detail and are a common focus for coaches during training and performance preparation. However, limited evidence is available on the impact of throw-ins on soccer performance and if coaches should dedicate time in training towards this specific set piece. Therefore, this research aimed to firstly examine if throw-in performance is linked with soccer performance, and secondly the effect throw-in direction and length has on first contact success rate, possession retention, mean time in possession and shot creation. 16,154 throw-ins from 380 English Premier League matches during the 2018–2019 season were analysed. Higher final league position was correlated to increased throw-in first contact success and possession retention. 83% of throw-in’s resulted in a successful first contact, 54% resulted in possession being retained and 8.8% of throw-ins led to a shot at goal from the possession achieved after a successful first contact. Throw-in’s which went backwards or laterally in direction resulted in increased first contact success, retaining of possession, and shot creation. The least efficient throw-in was forwards and long, which resulted in both reduced first contact success and possession retention. Findings highlight, that throwing the ball laterally or backwards should be a focus for coaches and players during attacking training. In contrast, a team’s defensive strategy should reduce the opportunities to throw backwards or laterally with a higher press and look to force a long forward throw-in, therefore, increasing the likelihood of winning possession and counter attacking.

[Davefevs]

Ta Spud…Wyscout data only tracks first contact.

[spudski]

Thomas also quoted some startling facts re retention of the ball from throw ins. Also a massive improvement at Liverpool after he coached there...

There are 40-60 throw-ins per match and most teams lose the ball in 50% of these situations. 

“Throw-ins can be used in a variety of ways but, ultimately, they help space creation when you are in possession and help with space manipulation when you are looking to regain the ball.” 

In previous interviews, Thomas revealed that Liverpool ranked 18th prior to his arrival, retaining possession just 45.4% of the time. The following year, the Reds ranked first with a 68.4% success rate following a throw-in. 

“Throw-ins aren’t just marginal gains, they are an important part of football,” he added. 

“There aren’t just a set few routines you can work on and there’s no NFL-Esque playbook. Do that and analysts will figure you out in no time, so you have to fully commit and educate the players.” 

[2015]

Glad i'm not the only one who has thought this for a while. The home game vs Huddersfield was a continuous waste of about 10 throw ins deep in their half in the 1st half. No one making an option at all and just going back to the keeper. Really bad.

[spudski]

7 minutes ago, 2015 said:

Glad i'm not the only one who has thought this for a while. The home game vs Huddersfield was a continuous waste of about 10 throw ins deep in their half in the 1st half. No one making an option at all and just going back to the keeper. Really bad.

Given the above info...perhaps keeping possession and recycling through the keeper, is a better alternative to losing the ball and having to defend?

Risk and reward I guess. 

If you can make better odds of keeping the ball from a throw in higher up the field and creating a shooting opportunity or attack, then that option would be more preferable.

Coaching to increase better odds perhaps needed.

 

 

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, spudski said:

Given the above info...perhaps keeping possession and recycling through the keeper, is a better alternative to losing the ball and having to defend?

Risk and reward I guess. 

If you can make better odds of keeping the ball from a throw in higher up the field and creating a shooting opportunity or attack, then that option would be more preferable.

Coaching to increase better odds perhaps needed.

 

 

Yep, going back to the keeper to pump it long seems futile.  Going back to keeper to get into position to start a new possession to play your patterns seems a good idea,

[Rocking Red Cyril]

6 hours ago, Davefevs said:

The man himself sent me a very nice DM on twitter after some throw-in analysis I did for City v Millwall (FAC) a couple of seasons back.

FWIW, we’ve scored from a throw-in this season too.

Well if Dave is in contact then he as good as ours. When can we get him tied down ? This week or next 

[Calculus]

5 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Yep, going back to the keeper to pump it long seems futile.  Going back to keeper to get into position to start a new possession to play your patterns seems a good idea,

Even if Bentley then gives it to Naismith and he then ... (well, you know the rest)?

[spudski]

19 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Yep, going back to the keeper to pump it long seems futile.  Going back to keeper to get into position to start a new possession to play your patterns seems a good idea,

Exactly...booting it from the keeper just makes it a 50/50 ball again. Better to recycle.

This is a fantastic article worth reading on the strategy of throw ins.

https://spielverlagerung.com/2020/01/31/liverpool-throw-in-analysis/

[paul james]

A simple scissors movement usualy fools the opposition !